(Some) EMTB weaknesses and possible solutions.

[steve_sordy]

It was Keith Bontrager.
And he talks a lot of shit.

Keith Bontrager, thanks for that.
He may talk a lot of shit on a whole load of subjects, but I agree with his " ........ pick 2" statement.

 

[Gary]

Yeah. Fair enough.
You also think 1g of weight loss has a finite monetary value. Because some other dude who talks shit once said it.
It's bollocks.

It's not actually difficult at all to build a strong, light bike for fairly reasonable cost.

 

[04fuxake]

Sram EX1 ebike derailleur and cog was out in 2017.

US$613 for a cassette - XG-899 E-BLOCK™ Cassette - CS-XG-899-A1 - SRAM

I'd rather just have a stock of cheaper cassettes ready to go.

 

[Rosemount]

Bicycle chain wear (elongation) | BikeGremlin Sorry but it is the inner plates and pins that wear, and although its not mentioned the rollers will also wear.

It needs to be said that even roller wear doesn’t affect pitch – because pins is what holds the rollers in place.

Roller wear does not affect pitch (the distance between two rollers on a loaded chain).


Wear on the inner plates is less a factor .
As chains with hardened pins can last 3 times longer .

 

[Bearing Man]

Just to stick my nose in on this one: I see a lot of bikes come into the workshop and I would say that 80% of them have bone dry or rusted chains, or are way past the chain wear tool limit!
How many of us are wearing components because of bad maintenance?
If you run your chain dry it will wear extremely fast.
If you run a very worn chain, it will wear the sprockets and cassette.
If you fit a new chain onto worn sprockets, they will wear the chain.
If you crash the gear change, you damage the chain and sprockets.

There are also the conundrums:
If you run a front sprocket that is too small you will only use the bottom few gears on your cassette and it will wear twice as fast.
If you sealed a chain (like an X-ring motorcycle chain) you would add friction. If you don't seal it, it will wear out much quicker.
If you seal a motor to make it waterproof, you would add friction and reduce range.

Every decent make of chain I have seen snapped, has usually worn halfway through the outer plates! Also how is it Bafang offer a 1.5Kw mid drive motor and it is able to run on a standard chain and sprockets? Maybe it's time to get the oil can and chain guide out?

 

[stratosa]

Here is my little secret. SRAM EX1, 30$ chain is the strongest and least wearing on the market. It is advertised as an 8-speed but it is a 10-speed chain. Grab one of those with any 30-60$ 10-speed cassette (SRAM, Shimano, Sunrace etc.) and you will remember me in the rest of your life.

 

[jgusta]

Sram already makes an 8spd ebike specific cassette and chain. Been out for a at least a few years now. I like idea, but cassette is expensive as heck. $429 USD, which is nuts for high wearing item. I roasted my Sram NX 12 (all steel cogs) speed that came on bike in little as 4 weeks and freehub splines chewed up pretty bad and crumbling away (Bontrager Alu). Since then went for all steel hub (DT 350 Hybrid) and 10spd Shimano Deore HG-50 cassette ($40) and e10 KMC chsin with much better wear. I still have to be pretty mindful what gear I am when riding to not torque cassette cogs under load and shift and a bit earlier to ensure in proper gear before motor torque kicks in to avoid any mis shifts or digging chain into cog, especially the highest gears since only loose cogs on full steel carrier. If hard charging rider or maybe newb your going to go thru drivetrain components fairly fast on ebikes due to increased mileage and load if nothing else.

 

[Gyre]

Fewer gears/higher effective gearing is *a* solution, but IMHO it shouldn't be *the* solution for eMTB. The worse your gear choices get and the higher the gearing, the more that would create dependence on more and more torque/output from the motor to do anything. Spiritually I believe that's the wrong way to go, regardless of whether you're on an "FF" or an "SL" bike.

 

[flash]

It was Keith Bontrager.
And he talks a lot of shit.

I've heard that saying for 30 years but applied to tripods, not bikes. I suspect it's been used by *smart people* for much longer than that.

Gordon

 

[Gary]

Keith said it over 30 years ago.

"smart people" don't just blindly regurgitate statements

 

[1oldfart]

I agree my 10S 36 front 11-42 is enough.
I do not use the 11 so 9 speeds are enough for more affordable
and longer lasting transmission.
11 and 12 speeds are just to justify the crazy prices asked by Trek, Specialized and others.
We could have 35 mm rims with enough room for 3.0 and change tire
according with season.
Also 165 mm should be the max for arms.

 

[Norcalsl]

Most EMTB's are using standard drivetrains which is their weakness, the motors mainly being the strength.

Weakness: Chain wear, and breakages. Specifically inner plates and pins. Cassette wear, bending, and chain ring wear. Battery capacity. Motor waterproofing???

Strength: Battery capacity, Motor Torque, multiple output modes.

Drivetrain: For most of us a 52t cog is overkill, and with output 4 modes, it begs the question if we need 12 speeds in most circumstances.

Possible solution: So.... would 8 speeds and a 11- 40ish cassette be more useful/acceptable given that the potential increase in inner plate width and therefore strength/wear resistance be of interest.
Whilst the chain will weigh more, and be stronger, the cassette should be stronger and lighter, and possibly with a larger chainring, better durability for the whole drivetrain.

Motor/Battery: Battery capacity will increase, weight will lessen, and waterproofing will/has improved, and more personal input to modes will be available.

I welcome your views

I ride a Levo SL, which has half the power of most Emtbs. When climbing steep hills in Eco or unassisted, I welcome having a 50t cog. Probably wouldn't want or need it if I was riding a FF Levo.

 

[Kernow]

I agree my 10S 36 front 11-42 is enough.
I do not use the 11 so 9 speeds are enough for more affordable
and longer lasting transmission.
11 and 12 speeds are just to justify the crazy prices asked by Trek, Specialized and others.
We could have 35 mm rims with enough room for 3.0 and change tire
according with season.
Also 165 mm should be the max for arms.

It depends where you ride and what you like to ride , I find with ebikes i have almost as much fun finding difficult climbs as i do descending .and where I ride mostly there are lots of them .
I find on these climbs a 34 50 ratio is very much required to keep cadence in the sweet spot my 52 top is a little overkill depending on front gearing but it’s nice to have it there for the odd occasion.
I think I got the best performance from 11 speed shimano Xt but the new 12 speed isn’t really a problem or something I feel the need to change until it’s all worn out . Iam certainly not experiencing noticably huge wear rates differences between ex1 8 speed shimano 10 and 11 speed or the latest 12 speed . My only problem is the silly prices of sram components

 

[Penttithefinn]

Just to stick my nose in on this one: I see a lot of bikes come into the workshop and I would say that 80% of them have bone dry or rusted chains, or are way past the chain wear tool limit!
How many of us are wearing components because of bad maintenance?
If you run your chain dry it will wear extremely fast.
If you run a very worn chain, it will wear the sprockets and cassette.
If you fit a new chain onto worn sprockets, they will wear the chain.
If you crash the gear change, you damage the chain and sprockets.

There are also the conundrums:
If you run a front sprocket that is too small you will only use the bottom few gears on your cassette and it will wear twice as fast.
If you sealed a chain (like an X-ring motorcycle chain) you would add friction. If you don't seal it, it will wear out much quicker.
If you seal a motor to make it waterproof, you would add friction and reduce range.

Every decent make of chain I have seen snapped, has usually worn halfway through the outer plates! Also how is it Bafang offer a 1.5Kw mid drive motor and it is able to run on a standard chain and sprockets? Maybe it's time to get the oil can and chain guide out?

Thats an interesting observation, and also asks the question about the line between good maintenance and bad, but given the number of people who "claim" that they maintain their chains fastidiously, and yet complain about wear rates or even snap them they do appear to be a touch delicate, and that is the reason I will be hot waxing my chain soon.
Even with x or O ring motorcycle chains oiling the outside is important, and on my last bike a Honda VTR 1000, I fitted a Scotoiler and managed to get good distances out of the chain and sprockets, something that one day may be possible on an EMTB, although I am not sure if it is desirable.

 

[1oldfart]

Thats an interesting observation, and also asks the question about the line between good maintenance and bad, but given the number of people who "claim" that they maintain their chains fastidiously, and yet complain about wear rates or even snap them they do appear to be a touch delicate, and that is the reason I will be hot waxing my chain soon.
Even with x or O ring motorcycle chains oiling the outside is important, and on my last bike a Honda VTR 1000, I fitted a Scotoiler and managed to get good distances out of the chain and sprockets, something that one day may be possible on an EMTB, although I am not sure if it is desirable.

I think a reason why some riders snap their chain is they use a bike chain on a motorcycle.
OK, i meant they are always on turbo or max assist, they drain their battery and look for trouble.
I never use max assist, do an average maintenance and a 10S last much longer than what i read from others.
Yes i change it as soon as it is stretched.

 

[Gary]

Nope. it's nothing to do with that at all.
ALL bike chains are strong enough to withstand being ridden in boost at max assistance

 

[Janc]

Most EMTB's are using standard drivetrains which is their weakness, the motors mainly being the strength.

Weakness: Chain wear, and breakages. Specifically inner plates and pins. Cassette wear, bending, and chain ring wear. Battery capacity. Motor waterproofing???

Strength: Battery capacity, Motor Torque, multiple output modes.

Drivetrain: For most of us a 52t cog is overkill, and with output 4 modes, it begs the question if we need 12 speeds in most circumstances.

Possible solution: So.... would 8 speeds and a 11- 40ish cassette be more useful/acceptable given that the potential increase in inner plate width and therefore strength/wear resistance be of interest.
Whilst the chain will weigh more, and be stronger, the cassette should be stronger and lighter, and possibly with a larger chainring, better durability for the whole drivetrain.

Motor/Battery: Battery capacity will increase, weight will lessen, and waterproofing will/has improved, and more personal input to modes will be available.

I welcome your views

I ride mostly in ECO for battery life and fitness reasons. I like a 50t for the steeper climbs. Only use higher power modes if I'm going to need to "boost" through a section I wouldn't have the strength to clear.

 

[slippery pete]

Just to stick my nose in on this one: I see a lot of bikes come into the workshop and I would say that 80% of them have bone dry or rusted chains, or are way past the chain wear tool limit!
How many of us are wearing components because of bad maintenance?
If you run your chain dry it will wear extremely fast.
If you run a very worn chain, it will wear the sprockets and cassette.

^This

I've used a lot of Squirt lube over a few years and come to the conclusion it isn't good at all for forming a useful film on the moving parts of a chain.

I've had a bottle of Shimano own-brand PTFE lube (I'm sure there are many others that are similar) that seems to be incredibly good for keeping things from wearing out.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I've used a lot of Squirt lube over a few years

I've quite liked it. No idea what's in it though. It says it's bio-degradable and to store between 5-35c - so it won't have liked being left out last night I think you're supposed to apply, then lit it go off.

Still, always open to better ideas !

Just had a look and found this .. wouldn't like to say how accurate it is and it's pretty old now :

https://www.squirt-lube.de/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/velonews-Chain-Lube-Efficiency-Tests-Combined-1.pdf

 

[Bearing Man]

I know chain lube is as contentious an issue as tyres, so I am just throwing this one in here for a bit of interest.

A mate and I generally always ride together, same track, same mileage, we even had the same bikes with same chains and sprockets. He was fastidious with his chain and lube. What ever was the most expensive snake oil in the shop, he would buy it. He would listen to all the experts and use his dry lubes in the summer and wet lubes in the winter. He regularly removes his chain, puts it in his sonic bath etc.

As for me. I clean the chain off with a squirt of WD-40 and a rag while it's still on the bike, then apply cheapo bog standard 3 in 1 (would use EP90 but too messy) all year round, job done! Guess what!? His chain and sprockets don't last a mile longer than mine! If you think about it, why would they? Without O-rings separating the chain plates and sealing the pins, no chain lube will make more that a mile or two difference because you can have the slipperiest substance known to man coating your chain, but once the grit gets in there it's the beginning of the end. (This experiment was conducted over 3 years and countless chains and sprockets).

 

[Zimmerframe]

As for me. I clean the chain off with a squirt of WD-40 and a rag while it's still on the bike, then apply cheapo bog standard 3 in 1 (would use EP90 but too messy) all year round, job done! Guess what!? His chain and sprockets don't last a mile longer than mine! If you think about it, why would they? Without O-rings separating the chain plates and sealing the pins, no chain lube will make more that a mile or two difference because you can have the slipperiest substance known to man coating your chain, but once the grit gets in there it's the beginning of the end. (This experiment was conducted over 3 years and countless chains and sprockets).

You need a new mate with a Levo and a butler with a jetwash for the next three year test to give us a baseline.

I guess the main thing people might notice as they try different lubes is that one might be stickier than an other and attract more grit and dirt, so then ends up being less about lubrication and more about one lube not really being ideal for the circumstances.

 

[steve_sordy]

Before the MBR Forum was wound up there was a regular poster on there who only ever used chainsaw oil. The principal reason was that it was free as he was a forester. But his rationale was that if the lube stayed on a chain saw at that speed and with it grinding through wood etc, then it will probably stay on a bike chain. He said his chains lasted a long time but I don't recall the subject of what his chain looked like ever coming up.

 

[Kernow]

Before the MBR Forum was wound up there was a regular poster on there who only ever used chainsaw oil. The principal reason was that it was free as he was a forester. But his rationale was that if the lube stayed on a chain saw at that speed and with it grinding through wood etc, then it will probably stay on a bike chain. He said his chains lasted a long time but I don't recall the subject of what his chain looked like ever coming up.

I Tried saw chain oil figuring it worked so well on my chainsaw so it would on my bike It’s ok in the snow and wet but too thick and sticky for most dryer conditions it attracts lots of crap and the drive train needs more cleaning
I just use normal oil these days a drop of the same stuff i top the car up with is about the same viscosity as the oils they sell for chain lube

 

[Mikerb]

yep...my mate just uses 3 in 1 and does not wear out chains any different to me. I actually think any general purpose oil will do the job and the main difference in terms of wear is how well and how often the chain is cleaned and ensuring any lube applied gets a chance to sit on the chain for a while before wiping the chain clean. That way the oil get a chance to get to the pins/rollers where it is actually needed and the outside of the chain is wiped clean before a ride to stop dirt, sand and grit sticking to it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

When's @Bearing Man going to offer X-ring bike chains ??

 

[lightning]

l've bought my Ebike to do regular bike rides, like the ones l do on my ordinary bike. Except l can do two or three times the distance.

I am fairly fit, and l found TURBO mode (Shimano Steps 8000) a waste of time as it delivers so much power with so little rider input, that it's hard to
ride it smoothly.

l've turned TURBO down to "medium" in the Shimano app, and it's still overkill but just about useable.

lt would be nice to be able to increase the level of rider input needed to get the full 300% assistance
But all you can do is turn down the maximum assistance to 200%.

l mainly use ECO.

 

[stratosa]

l've bought my Ebike to do regular bike rides, like the ones l do on my ordinary bike. Except l can do two or three times the distance.

I am fairly fit, and l found TURBO mode (Shimano Steps 8000) a waste of time as it delivers so much power with so little rider input, that it's hard to
ride it smoothly.

l've turned TURBO down to "medium" in the Shimano app, and it's still overkill but just about useable.

lt would be nice to be able to increase the level of rider input needed to get the full 300% assistance
But all you can do is turn down the maximum assistance to 200%.

l mainly use ECO.

Good for you.Do you think we are interested?

 

[Sidepod]

Good for you.Do you think we are interested?

Do you think, we think you’re an arse?

 

[lightning]

Good for you.Do you think we are interested?

That's a bit of a random comment.

To be honest l don't really know whether you are interested or not.
l am sure someone will be, who has the same setup.
Similar to you talking about your chain, in your post above.
Of no interest to me. but useful to someone.

Have a nice day.

 

[Penttithefinn]

Good for you.Do you think we are interested?

Let me help you as there is a possibility that you have a translation problem, and as the OP I asked a few questions, so therefore you may have misunderstood when to use "we" and "I". It is impolite to speak for others as in "Do you think we are interested", so if you as in "I am not interested" is the case, just keep your opinion to yourself, and let everyone else speak for themselves. You're welcome !