Smart Battery Charger

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I saw this and thought it was quite interesting. Anyone interested in a video review on it? Hard to get excited about chargers ? but this seems quite neat.

Home | LiON Smart Charger | Electronics | Germany

The First Smart Fast Charger for e-bike and e-scooter. Compact, Lightweight, Smart and Fast. Power Electronics

www.lionsmartcharger.com

 

[The Hodge]

Hi Rob ..yeah please I could get a teeny bit excited
?
Especially in view of the fact that I'm hoping to put together a Northumberland 2night bothy trip in the summer ( covid restrictions allowing )

 

[Slapbassmunky]

If the price is reasonable then this could make a great alternative to overpriced OEM chargers. They make some slightly dubious claims on the website, like gentle charging, A 4A Bosch charger is going to charge exactly the same way as this one. But I'd be interested in a review.

 

[Spreaders]

I took a look at the compatability chart as like the idea of a single unit for travel and also a slow charge when in no rush for my Jam² and a faster charger than the basic one came with Mrs Bosch. Shimano not listed let alone Derby cycles/Focus own battery so no good for a lot of people straight away.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I saw this and thought it was quite interesting. Anyone interested in a video review on it? Hard to get excited about chargers ? but this seems quite neat.

Home | LiON Smart Charger | Electronics | Germany

The First Smart Fast Charger for e-bike and e-scooter. Compact, Lightweight, Smart and Fast. Power Electronics

www.lionsmartcharger.com

Only if you do it as a full length epic charging live stream !

 

[The Hodge]

Unless I'm mistaken there is no price list either ..any idea as to the cost please..?

 

[Slapbassmunky]

It's a very odd website. Lots of spiel, without any actual numbers or information to back anything up. I genuinely hope they have a viable product to market.

 

[Tim1023]

Not much on the German language version of the site either. You seem to have to send a mail to [email protected] to get a price.
ONgineer seems to be a product development consultancy, so I guess this charger must be one of their projects / clients

 

[smtkelly]

I'm interested.

I'd also be interested in any car based chargers. My riding buddy has a busy life (cough#forgetful) I preemptively assuming he'll show up with an uncharged bike at some point.

I've read discussion about inverters cigarette plugs and 10amps etc. Just seems odd to me to go from Car > DC/AC > inverter > AC/DC Battery and there no direct DC options (which I think would actually charge faster?).

 

[Slapbassmunky]

I'm interested.

I'd also be interested in any car based chargers. My riding buddy has a busy life (cough#forgetful) I preemptively assuming he'll show up with an uncharged bike at some point.

I've read discussion about inverters cigarette plugs and 10amps etc. Just seems odd to me to go from Car > DC/AC > inverter > AC/DC Battery and there no direct DC options (which I think would actually charge faster?).

Bosch make a 4A 12v charger which on my 625Wh battery is pretty slow, I don't know about other manufacturers. I use a 6A 240v one and it still takes over 3 Hrs from empty.

Designing a charger that has a higher voltage input is a lot easier then one that has a lower input than the battery it's charging, it's also more efficient, runs cooler, components are cheaper, etc, etc....

Besides this, people generally underestimate just how much juice their ebike battery contains. For instance, my car battery is 45Ah it's a fairly standard European petrol car. 12Vx45Ah gives us 540Wh. I wouldn't dare use more than half of this for the sake of getting home at the end of the day and longevity of the battery... Once you take into account inverter losses at 90% efficiency, then charger losses, the C5 rate of a lead acid battery.... You can see where this is headed.

If you charge whilst driving you can get over flattening your car/van/RV battery, provided the drive to the trailhead is long enough, but then we run into another problem. My 6A Bosch charger would pull (and these are all rough numbers here) 240W, the charger is 95% efficient so let's make that 250W, and the inverter on a good day is 90% efficient.

So let's make that roughly 275W

That's 20A at 14.4V whilst the alternator is charging. Which is too much for most cigarette lighter sockets, so you'd probably need a dedicated charging socket somewhere. It's a catch 22 situation whatever way you do it unless you have some BIG lead acids under the hood.

My solution will be some CALB 100Ah cells in a box with an inverter strapped to the top. ?

Well that turned into an essay, hope it useful for someone. ?

 

[Kentish]

The one thing I’d like to see in a charger is a 'storage mode'.

Too many times I’ve put mine on just for an hour or so, then either forgot, fallen asleep, ended up drunk in a gutter somewhere and low and behold, a fully charged battery!

I've messaged them to see if this will do storage mode.

 

[Akiwi]

The one thing I’d like to see in a charger is a 'storage mode'.

Too many times I’ve put mine on just for an hour or so, then either forgot, fallen asleep, ended up drunk in a gutter somewhere and low and behold, a fully charged battery!

I've messaged them to see if this will do storage mode.

Yes, it would interest me.
Particularly weight. I have the Bosch 4A and 6A charger.
On my Transalp bikeride I took the 6A in my backpack so I could pump as much power into my battery in a short time during breaks.

Get a timer!
I got one of these, and have never overcharged my battery again.


ANSMANN Timer Socket AES1 / Switchable Socket with Timer for Household Appliances: Fan Heater, Coffee Machine, Washing Machine, etc., black, 5024063

 

[Kentish]

Just had this reply to my query. Quick reply!!



Thanks very much for your inquiry and kind interest to our LiON that is going to be launched very soon.

Inside the LiON App, users could create different battery profiles. And then there are totally 6 charger modes to select as below，4 by default and 2 to be customized:

1. Fast and Full - Charge at the highest allowed current and to 100%
2. Mild and Full - Charge only at 2A current and to 100%
3. Battery Saving - Charge only at 2A current and only up to 90%
4. Storage Mode - Charge only at 1A current and only up to 50%
5. Custom Mode 1 - User to define the charging current and battery level
6. Custom Mode 2 - User to define the charging current and battery level

So, the Storage Mode would be good for users to charge the battery only up to 50%, giving the least stress to the battery, and let it stay clam during the off-season for biking. Of course, users are always welcome to define his own "storage mode" in either one of the custom mode and decide what charging current and battery level would be the best for the battery.

Please note that the charger is unable to "discharge" any battery. In other words, if your battery is having a level higher than the level set inside the charger mode, the charger would not be able to adjust the battery level accordingly.

Once again, thanks very much for your question to us, and we look forward to having you becoming one of the fans of LiON very soon.

Best regards,

Leo
Customer Service Department

 

[Slapbassmunky]

Just had this reply to my query. Quick reply!!



Thanks very much for your inquiry and kind interest to our LiON that is going to be launched very soon.

Inside the LiON App, users could create different battery profiles. And then there are totally 6 charger modes to select as below，4 by default and 2 to be customized:

1. Fast and Full - Charge at the highest allowed current and to 100%
2. Mild and Full - Charge only at 2A current and to 100%
3. Battery Saving - Charge only at 2A current and only up to 90%
4. Storage Mode - Charge only at 1A current and only up to 50%
5. Custom Mode 1 - User to define the charging current and battery level
6. Custom Mode 2 - User to define the charging current and battery level

So, the Storage Mode would be good for users to charge the battery only up to 50%, giving the least stress to the battery, and let it stay clam during the off-season for biking. Of course, users are always welcome to define his own "storage mode" in either one of the custom mode and decide what charging current and battery level would be the best for the battery.

Please note that the charger is unable to "discharge" any battery. In other words, if your battery is having a level higher than the level set inside the charger mode, the charger would not be able to adjust the battery level accordingly.

Once again, thanks very much for your question to us, and we look forward to having you becoming one of the fans of LiON very soon.

Best regards,

Leo
Customer Service Department

Excellent info, what they don't tell you is the max charge current is 4A, download and have a play with the app, it's quite good. Charging any half decent ebike battery at less than 4A nets no benefits whatsoever, so the low and slow modes are a bit pointless but easy to implement so it's nice they've added them, the 50 & 90% options are great, and having one charger to do all of our bikes is another winner. If this thing comes up at a reasonable price they'll be onto an absolutey fantastic product.


Have they given a price yet?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I will have one here next week to try hopefully.

What kinda price you think this will retail at?

 

[Akiwi]

I will have one here next week to try hopefully.

What kinda price you think this will retail at?

I would expect maybe €100. To be the same or a little less than the Bosch 4A charger, but offering more features.

 

[Kentish]

I will have one here next week to try hopefully.

What kinda price you think this will retail at?

One Million Dollars
*

 

[Hamina]

I'm not sure but I have a feeling that such an intelligent charger would extend my battery's lifetime to such numbers that it exceeds the lifetime of my sweet Rail 5 frame and components...and my interest to the bike.

I'm not also sure what problem this intelligent charger is really solving? Maybe it would give me psychologically better feeling when I know that it takes gentle care of my Bosch battery while I'm not continuously discharging it deep in the forest trails?

Quite often if you can't publish the price it says that it's not cheap.

- Charging with current 2A charger is too slow = Buy heavy and bulky Bosch 6A charger home
- Current battery doesn't last long enough = Buy a second battery (They have a resell value)

I can publicly admit that I base these assumptions to a thesis(?) that Bosch knows what they are doing with their chargers and batteries and by buying an aftermarket charger you can achieve only marginal gains.

 

[Shane(NZ)]

A little of subject but I feel that e bike chargers have a huge scope for improvement, charging speeds are insanely slow.
Greyp G12 has a 2000wh battery , full charge is 80min...??
Greyp G6(std emtb) 700wh battery, full charge time 5hrs...wtf?
So slow!

 

[Slapbassmunky]

A little of subject but I feel that e bike chargers have a huge scope for improvement, charging speeds are insanely slow.
Greyp G12 has a 2000wh battery , full charge is 80min...??
Greyp G6(std emtb) 700wh battery, full charge time 5hrs...wtf?
So slow!

Most cells used in ebike battery's have a standard charge rate of 0.5C as noted in the data sheets. You can charge at 1C if the temperature is reasonable but you'll mildly shorten the cells life. You can charge at 0.25C to be really gentle but going lower than that makes no difference to the cells, it just serves to make the charger cheaper. Powerful/fast chargers are expensive!

Higher output cells (VTC6 as an example) can accept a really fast charge, like in your bike example. But those types of cells are not long lived, they kick ass for a short life span. The Bosch 6A charger is on the limit of what their own 400Wh battery can cope with whilst still adhering to the call manufacturers datasheet, and personally I wouldn't make a habit of using that combo of charger and pack too often...

 

[Shane(NZ)]

Most cells used in ebike battery's have a standard charge rate of 0.5C as noted in the data sheets. You can charge at 1C if the temperature is reasonable but you'll mildly shorten the cells life. You can charge at 0.25C to be really gentle but going lower than that makes no difference to the cells, it just serves to make the charger cheaper. Powerful/fast chargers are expensive!

Higher output cells (VTC6 as an example) can accept a really fast charge, like in your bike example. But those types of cells are not long lived, they kick ass for a short life span. The Bosch 6A charger is on the limit of what their own 400Wh battery can cope with whilst still adhering to the call manufacturers datasheet, and personally I wouldn't make a habit of using that combo of charger and pack too often...

Haibike offer a 10amp charger option with there flyon bikes, do they use different cells?
I would buy a 10amp Bosch charger if they made one. Would only use when quick turn round is required.

 

[Slapbassmunky]

They might do, 2700 cells can handle higher currents than 18650 sized ones so that might be how they're doing it?

Given their specs, the haibike pack is a close match for the Bosch 625. So around the 17.5Ah mark at 36V. EDIT. *conflicting info online. TQ say 56 cells and 48V. 56 cells would be a 14S4P pack using 18650 cells with 3450mAh capacity each at 52V.


Again looking at the data sheets for most cells 0.5C is the preferred charge rate but they can go up to 1C if temperatures are low enough. I'd be extremely surprised if you could take the flyon pack straight off the bike and have the charger blast 10A into it, I would imagine it throttles well and it's charge rate is heavily pack temperature dependant. However, even at 10A, you're well under the 1C rate.

But please bear in mind this is all an educated guess, without one to test properly I can only speculate.

And have you seen the cost of that 10A charger? ?

 

[The Hodge]

I've just noticed the cost ..a bit on the heavy side ..

 

[Slapbassmunky]

I've just noticed the cost ..a bit on the heavy side ..

Literally as well, I wouldn't want to carry it in my camelbak ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

I've just noticed the cost ..a bit on the heavy side ..

Careful ... you're giving us EMTB'ers a bad name ..

"We want and need faster charging" ..

"OK, here's a 10a fast charger" ..

"Ohh, it's expensive, slow charging works for me ... "



It does leap off the page as expensive doesn't it .. but with shopping around :

€255 :

Haibike The Battery Charger 10A FLYON chargeur achète en ligne chez HIBIKE à des prix avantageux

Le chargeur pour les modèles FLYON de Haibike Avec le chargeur, votre modèle FLYON peut être chargé et prêt à l'emploi en une heure.

www.hibike.fr

€209 : (Unsuprisingly, Out of stock)

Accessories and spare for bikes, ebike, motorcycles, scooter, vespa,

accessories and spare parts for cycle, ebike, motorcycle, scooter, vespa, sport

www.ridewill.it

Compare that to a standard Yamaha charger

€189 :

Yamaha Chargeur Intube 500Wh 36V | Bikester.fr

Yamaha Chargeur Intube 500Wh 36V - à prix réduits sur Bikester.fr ! | Top Yamaha Avis clients ✔ Détails du produits ✔ Photos ✔ » Expédition CE JOUR si commandé avant 16h ! (Lun-Ven)

www.bikester.fr

Bosch 6ah

€160 :

Buy Bosch E-Bike Battery Fast Charger 6Ah Perf./Active EU -

Order the Bosch E-Bike Battery Fast Charger 6Ah Perf./Active EU -

hollandbikeshop.com

Bosch 4ah

€127 :

Buy Bosch E-Bike Battery Charger 4A UK - Black at HBS

Order the Bosch E-Bike Battery Charger 4A UK - Black online quick

hollandbikeshop.com

Comparably, it's only about the same price as a 10a car charger : (€250-€300)

BESEN EV Mobile charger - Type1 - 10A - Cable 6m - Schuko - PDC019T1 - Carplug

www.carplug.com

I suspect if we had a survey thread "what would you like to pay for your battery charger" .. it would be €50 ! Despite all our dreams of fast charging/slow charging/long battery life - it's just a little box which isn't exciting and doesn't make you think your bike might go faster if you bought it.

 

[Shane(NZ)]

Careful ... you're giving us EMTB'ers a bad name ..

"We want and need faster charging" ..

"OK, here's a 10a fast charger" ..

"Ohh, it's expensive, slow charging works for me ... "



It does leap off the page as expensive doesn't it .. but with shopping around :

€255 :

Haibike The Battery Charger 10A FLYON chargeur achète en ligne chez HIBIKE à des prix avantageux

Le chargeur pour les modèles FLYON de Haibike Avec le chargeur, votre modèle FLYON peut être chargé et prêt à l'emploi en une heure.

www.hibike.fr

€209 : (Unsuprisingly, Out of stock)

Accessories and spare for bikes, ebike, motorcycles, scooter, vespa,

accessories and spare parts for cycle, ebike, motorcycle, scooter, vespa, sport

www.ridewill.it

Compare that to a standard Yamaha charger

€189 :

Yamaha Chargeur Intube 500Wh 36V | Bikester.fr

Yamaha Chargeur Intube 500Wh 36V - à prix réduits sur Bikester.fr ! | Top Yamaha Avis clients ✔ Détails du produits ✔ Photos ✔ » Expédition CE JOUR si commandé avant 16h ! (Lun-Ven)

www.bikester.fr

Bosch 6ah

€160 :

Buy Bosch E-Bike Battery Fast Charger 6Ah Perf./Active EU -

Order the Bosch E-Bike Battery Fast Charger 6Ah Perf./Active EU -

hollandbikeshop.com

Bosch 4ah

€127 :

Buy Bosch E-Bike Battery Charger 4A UK - Black at HBS

Order the Bosch E-Bike Battery Charger 4A UK - Black online quick

hollandbikeshop.com

Comparably, it's only about the same price as a 10a car charger : (€250-€300)

BESEN EV Mobile charger - Type1 - 10A - Cable 6m - Schuko - PDC019T1 - Carplug

www.carplug.com

I suspect if we had a survey thread "what would you like to pay for your battery charger" .. it would be €50 ! Despite all our dreams of fast charging/slow charging/long battery life - it's just a little box which isn't exciting and doesn't make you think your bike might go faster if you bought it.

Not that expensive to make a 10amp charger, no cutting edge tec in that puppy!
Oh its for a e-bike...ding,ding$$$

We have power supplies the output 450amps+ at 15v dc with 100% dute cycle, they're not that expensive considering, just my opinion of cause.

 

[Slapbassmunky]

Not that expensive to make a 10amp charger, no cutting edge tec in that puppy!
Oh its for a e-bike...ding,ding$$$

We have power supplies the output 450amps+ at 15v dc with 100% dute cycle, they're not that expensive considering, just my opinion of cause.

Agreed, but when every tiny bit of profit is important to a manufacturer it's relatively expensive to supply a powerful charger. Especially when the customer dosen't even consider it part of the bike, just a sundry item.

I work on power supplies that provide 95Kv but only 4A and 2% duty ?

 

[MrSimmo]

For me, a universal charger that delivered a charge as fast as the OE chargers but also allowed you to set maximum % charge amounts would be ideal. I'd simply set it to charge to 85% every time unless there is a big ride where I could select full-charge. I believe Giant do this today but not sure anyone else does.

My current solution involves setting a timer to turn off the socket after say 2 hours but its not scientific and charge amounts very quite a bit - more hassle than worth in a busy life with kids running around.

Not too bothered of a lower form factor over charging speed as when I ride distances and need to burst charge in a pub over lunch for example, I want as fast a charge as possible. Obviously a smaller lighter but faster charging device would be utopia.

I was actually going to ask if anyone was aware of a piggyback solution that fitted between the Levo battery charging port and the charger cable; measured the % battery charge reported and when it hit say 85% it triggered a signal to cut the power to the charger.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I was actually going to ask if anyone was aware of a piggyback solution that fitted between the Levo battery charging port and the charger cable; measured the % battery charge reported and when it hit say 85% it triggered a signal to cut the power to the charger.

Might be nice if that was a setting you could set in Mission Control ? I'll let you suggest it in the "what you want from MC" thread

Mission Control - Mission Control App - Do you use it?

Do you use the Specialized Mission Control App? What do you like about it? What do you not like about it? What would you want to see added to it to improve? What other feedback do you have, positive / negative Add your feedback here and it will be sent to Specialized to help improve it for...

www.emtbforums.com

Also be nice to have an option to select 120% charge ...

 

[MrSimmo]

Might be nice if that was a setting you could set in Mission Control ? I'll let you suggest it in the "what you want from MC" thread

Mission Control - Mission Control App - Do you use it?

Do you use the Specialized Mission Control App? What do you like about it? What do you not like about it? What would you want to see added to it to improve? What other feedback do you have, positive / negative Add your feedback here and it will be sent to Specialized to help improve it for...

www.emtbforums.com

Also be nice to have an option to select 120% charge ...

not a bad idea at all Zim! - will do ?