Sensible Cassette Set up

[Wiltshire Warrior]

My bike has 11 speed 10-42 (11-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-37-42 ), but I am finding that as I never drop below 10MPH that I am not using the largest 4 cogs at all and barely using 21 and 24.

So I am thinking I would be better off with a 7 speed 11-28 and low profile enduro Mech like a ZEE

Has anyone done this?

PS I allways ride with 900Watts so I am not going to run out of juice.

 

[Injidup]

With all that E*Powah why not just go single speed?

 

[Steady_eddy]

I think SRAM agree with what you are talking about, they have the EX1 groupset (EMTB specific). Only 8 speed and a huge range! I am thinking about upgrading when mine needs replacing but I don't think it's being sold as only a groupset yet, only to manufacturers.....

EX1 | SRAM Mountain | SRAM

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

Sadly the SRAM 8 speed is still geared for an analogue bike 11-48T -so all their hype about it being Emtb specific is a load of BS.

Also £400 for a cassette that is not fit for purpose! come on....

XG-899 E-BLOCK™ CASSETTE7

I think a better option (for me ) would be the Hope Downhill Cassette 7 speed 10-24
DH Cassette | Hope Tech | Made in Barnoldswick, England
It has the same 11 speed spacing so the chain and Shifter can Remain - and I would be able to use a short cage mech (Saint or Zee)
On the other hand, for the hope cassette I will need a hope hub - which will give me the chance to build a new wheel - maybe with a carbon rim!

 

[Steady_eddy]

Ah ok, so do you mean that you only have the higher gears? Could always try and build a Frankenstein one yourself on a DH hub?

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

With all that E*Powah why not just go single speed?

Actually you might be onto somthing there - I could use Single speed spacers to replace the big sprokets that I dont need.

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

Ah ok, so do you mean that you only have the higher gears? Could always try and build a Frankenstein one yourself on a DH hub?

Yes I only need 11-24

 

[knut7]

Couldn't you increase the chainring size? Using the larger cogs should make the cassette last longer.

 

[Gary]

So I am thinking I would be better off with a 7 speed 11-28 and low profile enduro Mech like a ZEE

Has anyone done this?

so 7 speed with shimano 10 speed shifter and 10 speed cassette spacing?

Yes it's entirely do able. I run cut down (5 speed) cassettes on my DH bikes. spaced to sit centrally on the freehub bodies. Doing it this way means 12T is the smallest sprocket you can use. When choosing a cassette find one which has the closest to all the gear ratios you'd like, split the cassette and remove the sprockets you don't want. If (you want a completely custom set up, buying 2 cheap cassettes might be required)
Fitting the cassette centrally with smaller range has the benefit of better chainline (so less stress/wear on your chain) plus way better chain retention from the better chain angle AND the much shorter chain required. it also means your drivetrain picks up less mud and even when it does it sheds it more easily.
The mech needs limited to only run with the narrower cassette and sitting centrally makes this work better than spacing just the rear of the sprocket over.
Anyone going the spacing the cassette over from behind route is mainly doing it for weight saving


The other option is to use a SS freehub like Hope do. it's called singlespeed but in reality 6 or 7 10speed sprockets will fit on them. There are a few DH hubs around like this now but bear in mind DH spacing is 150x12 and with 150x12 the hub end caps are not recessed into the frame dropouts like 148mm boost so those hubs won't be compatible with any Ebikes I can think of.

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

cheers gary - my rear drop outs are 157X12, so I could use a hope 150 with the 157 adapters.

But for now I am planning on getting a set of spacers like these Singlespeed Colour Spacer Kit - Superstar Components and experimenting - I like your idea of centering the cassete. I am planning on just dropping the 4 or 5 largest sprockets on my SLX cassette. and then all I would need to do limit the mech, yes I would have a few redundant clicks on my shifter - buts that is less stuping than the idea of 11 speed on an Ebike.

I am convinced we get this so that ebikes look the similar and makers think we are more likely to convert to ebikes if we find similarities to our analogue bikes.

 

[100 Cols]

I agree with knut7, larger chainring would spread your cogs usage to bigger ones, which consecutively also helps with chain wear.

What kind of benefits you'd get by just dropping the larger cogs from the cassette? On an ebike the achieved weight savings would be imperceptible , non?

 

[Gary]

What kind of benefits you'd get by just dropping the larger cogs from the cassette?

MOAR! isn't always the answer. If he really never rides below 10mph there's no need for 11 gears even if he can fit a larger chaining. ratios as close as a roadbike really aren't needed on an mtb infact it's bloody annoying having to change through 4 gears on a close ratio cassette to jump a difference of 6 sprocket teeth. Using an 11-23 11speed road cassette for example (Close ratio road cassettes used to be commonplace on 4X and DH race bikes)

On an ebike the achieved weight savings would be imperceptible , non?

I guess you've probably never ridden a light Emtb then?
There's a massive difference in handling between heavy and light bikes, To me heavy Ebikes feel shit. and you can't have a light bike if all the components are all heavy. it all adds up.
a cheaper* 11-42 11speed cassette can weigh almost 500g
the custom cassette on my DH bike was made by splitting a 9 speed mtb cassette and using 5 sprockets and weighs just over 100g and cost £20
That's almost a full lb of weight (if you include the shorter chain in your weight count) saved for £20 outlay! (or £28 if you don't already have cassette spacers) On just ONE component!

*Not actually all that cheap at all at £50ish

 

[MattyB]

PS I allways ride with 900Watts so I am not going to run out of juice.

Is this on your Moterra? Is the motor really capable of 900W when derestricted? Sounds a little unlikely to me - even if you are getting those levels surely it must be only for very short periods.

 

[Gary]

cheers gary - my rear drop outs are 157X12, so I could use a hope 150 with the 157 adapters.

But for now I am planning on getting a set of spacers like these Singlespeed Colour Spacer Kit - Superstar Components and experimenting - I like your idea of centering the cassete. I am planning on just dropping the 4 or 5 largest sprockets on my SLX cassette. and then all I would need to do limit the mech, yes I would have a few redundant clicks on my shifter - buts that is less stuping than the idea of 11 speed on an Ebike.

Here's my Session's cassette set up.

Note how straight the chainline is and how clean the set-up is, basically nowhere left for mud to collect and if any does it falls off easily and quickly. Bear in mind here you can't slide an 11T sprocket over the end of the freehub body. I can hit 40mph+ sprinting DH in 36-12. YCMV

Notice the short cage XO mech is not a clutch mech. This has the advantage of being super super light, tucked nicely out of the way and again far less space for mud to collect.
The lack of clutch also allows the rear suspension to perform better.
You can't see it in the pics but my mech has longer custom length limit screws fitted. There's just not enough adjustment on many rear mechs to linit them as far as I need. You'll need to experiment with this and some mechs just won't do it even with longer screws (as they bottom out on the limit at the other end before they'll limit the end your trying to)

Notice the lack of chainguide. I don't ever bash my chainring with a 36T NW ring so don't need a bashguard. and the chainline is so good and chain so short I've never dropped a chain even with no clutch and no top guide. (including a week in the Alps with probably 250000ft of descending on rough DH tracks).
Again compared to a full chaindevice and bashguard set-up there's practically nowhere for mud to collect and it's such a clean set up any mud just falls off.
The only real downside of my set-up is increased noise from chainslap. Because of this my chainstay protector is now just a thick covering of mastic tape. The neoprene covering it in the pics didn't survive that week in the alps.

The set-up above saves around 600g over a standard 10speed Saint set-up with chainguide and 10speed DH set up. This most certainly is noticable. Add in the mud shedding properties of the cleaner drivetrain and on a wet day after a few runs you're saving double that weight.

I am convinced we get this so that ebikes look the similar and makers think we are more likely to convert to ebikes if we find similarities to our analogue bikes.

I think you'll find a lot of Ebikers are not as fit or strong as you seem to be giving them credit for and many will want to climb things they'd never get up on the gearing you want to run.
If you really NEVER ride below 10mph. You don't ride ANY steep/technical climbs.
Ebikes are sold on marketing that makes it look like you can climb the unclimbable and for this to be true you still need the lower end gearing.
FWIW. I'd be fine on an 11-36 and some of my climbs are way steeper/wet/looser than I could get any non-Ebike up. I'm not actively hunting down difficult climbs though, I just know all the quickest routes to all the descents I like riding most. I rarely use my 42T sprocket. The main exception being when I ride with the motor switched off. I do this quite a lot and know fine most Ebikers probably think I'm some sort of freak for doing so. #bovvered?

 

[knut7]

I find it a bit strange that you want to remove the cogs you normally don't use. Haven't you ever had the need to go below 10mph? Is the reduction in weight worth not having the option to go slower? Or is there another reason why you want to lose some cogs?

I think this is a great opportunity to fix one of the issues with the Bosch motor, drivetrain wear. The small chainring needs to be replaced relatively often. The Moterra LT has got a 15t (=37,5t) chainring, swap it for a 17t (=42,5t) and you will start using the larger cogs on the cassette. The smaller cogs on the cassette wear out fast, as does a 14-15t chainring.

 

[100 Cols]

on an mtb infact it's bloody annoying having to change through 4 gears on a close ratio cassette to jump a difference of 6 sprocket teeth.

Of course it is annoying. Yet going for 7 speed 11-24 will not help at all.

I guess you've probably never ridden a light Emtb then?

No need for that tone, but that's right, I've never ridden a light eMTB. Actually, I've never even seen such a thing IRL. Have you, I wonder?

There's a massive difference in handling between heavy and light bikes, To me heavy Ebikes feel shit. and you can't have a light bike if all the components are all heavy. it all adds up.
a cheaper* 11-42 11speed cassette can weigh almost 500g
the custom cassette on my DH bike was made by splitting a 9 speed mtb cassette and using 5 sprockets and weighs just over 100g and cost £20
That's almost a full lb of weight (if you include the shorter chain in your weight count) saved for £20 outlay! (or £28 if you don't already have cassette spacers) On just ONE component!

*Not actually all that cheap at all at £50ish

Yeah, life sucks, stucked in riding with heavy shit we are, you and I. Having a close ratio cassette for flatland road machine might be a reasonable option, but 11-24 on an eMTB with a 900 W engine sounds like a sprocket eater apparatus. Personally I can't see the light there.

 

[Gary]

@100 Cols
11- 24 is what @Wiltshire Warrior says covers all his gearing need. If this is true then a 7 speed 11-24 set up is both all he needs and an improvement over an 11-42 11 speed set-up where 4 of his gear are completely redundant. I'm not sure why you're arguing with him (or me)

By light Emtb I mean in the 46-48lb region

How on earth is he going to eat sprockets any faster by simply removing the ones he doesn't ever use?

FWIW. If I was doing the same as WW I would space the 7 (10 speed) cassette sprockets in the centre of his freehub and use a custom 12-28 cassette AND fit a larger chainring. The examples I have shown were just examples to explain to WW what's possible and what the advantages/disadvantages are.

 

[100 Cols]

I'm not sure why you're arguing with him (or me)

I'm not arguing, I'm discussing. I'm expressing an opinion and trying to understand why OP is willing to do something that does not make sense to me. Should I not, you think?

How on earth is he going to eat sprockets any faster by simply removing the ones he doesn't ever use?

Larger chainwheel, Gary, larger chainwheel is the proposed alternative solution. Larger chainwheel means larger rear sprockets, means more usable sprockets, means better efficiency. Means less wear, means fewer consumed sprockets. That's how.

 

[Gary]

I'm not arguing, I'm discussing. I'm expressing an opinion and trying to understand why OP is willing to do something that does not make sense to me. Should I not, you think?

It's really not very difficult to understand

Larger chainwheel, Gary, larger chainwheel is the proposed alternative solution. Larger chainwheel means larger rear sprockets, means more usable sprockets, means better efficiency. Means less wear, means fewer consumed sprockets. That's how.

It's pretty obvious from what I have said previously I understand perfeclty well how gear ratios work. I've already said my solution would be to change the chainring AND reduce the sprocket numbers. AND centre the cassette for better chainline and wear.
what you don't seem to be taking into account is WW saying he has absolutely no need at all for any gearing to ride below 10mph.
if you cut out all riding below 10mph you effectively need less ratios.
As far as I'm aware WW's not some mutant supreme DH athlete who needs higher gearing than a downhill world champion. (which is a top gear of somewhere between 36-12 to 38-11 depending on the rider) for razzing round the Wiltshire countyside. But who knows? He certainly seems to need more powerful lights than I do.

 

[Alistair Staley]

C’mon, c’mon. You must know by now that Gazza knows the correct answer to all questions and is a better/faster rider than all the rest of us. No point in an alternative opinion.

 

[Gary]

I made this badge just for your return Alistair...

Print it out and wear it with pride my one and only virtual stalker.

 

[MattyB]

C’mon, c’mon. You must know by now that Gazza knows the correct answer to all questions and is a better/faster rider than all the rest of us. No point in an alternative opinion.

I agree Gary’s delivery sometimes lacks a bit of, how can I put it... light and shade? Personally though I am glad knowledgeable posters like him contribute here, it is very useful to those of us with less experience and I simply choose to look past the sometimes abrupt delivery to the content.

From your brief posting history it does look like you are on some kind of crusade against him; seems rather pointless to me, we all know it will not change his contributions. IMO it’s best to leave moderation to the mods.

 

[Doomanic]

PS I allways ride with 900Watts so I am not going to run out of juice.

I’m not sure what this means? Do you mean you have 2 batteries? A 500Wh and a 400Wh?

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

I’m not sure what this means? Do you mean you have 2 batteries? A 500Wh and a 400Wh?

correct 500 and 400.

Also back to the orginal thing - a couple of weeks ago I tried it up the road at Cheddar (on turbo) and I was sitting on 16mph all the way apart from the "almost" hair pin when I dropped to 12mph. I dont remember exactly what gear I was in - but somewhere in the middle of the cassette.

My point is that I unless I am on some steep twisty technical singletrack I will never get lower than the middle of the cassette. also large rear cogs replaced the granny ring when 1X first came out - so having a 42T on an Ebike is like saying it needs a granny ring!! - this is what I dont get!?!?!

Perhaps another option would be to fit a road bike Cassette - but I read that Road 11 speed doesnt fit onto MTB 11 speed cassette body?

I wish this would fit ...Shimano 105 R7000 11-Speed Cassette

 

[Doomanic]

Come and ride some proper off-road, we’ll soon get you using those lower gears.

 

[Wiltshire Warrior]

Come and ride some proper off-road, we’ll soon get you using those lower gears.

Maybe climbing like a 7 year old with the motor switched off.

 

[Gary]

Also back to the orginal thing - a couple of weeks ago I tried it up the road at Cheddar (on turbo) and I was sitting on 16mph all the way apart from the "almost" hair pin when I dropped to 12mph. I dont remember exactly what gear I was in - but somewhere in the middle of the cassette.

The road at Cheddar isn't steep mate, it only hits about 16% at it's steepest and is a tarmac surface. it certainly isn't challenging to ride up.
As with @Doomanic I'd happily invite you to try some actual off road climbs with decent gradients and technical surfaces up here. Your bike does have a walk mode, eh? See you at the top

 

[MattyB]

Just because you can make it up the climbs you are attempting at lower cadence in a higher gear doesn't make it efficient for you or the powertrain. You will almost certainly draw less amps and get less lactic build up in your legs if you climb at a higher cadence in a lower gear. You will also then still have the gearing to get up any really steep climbs you encounter should you need to.

 

[Gary]

11 speed road spacing is different to mtb. it wouldn't index or fit. and the one tooth jumps at the small end of the sprockets is stupid for mtbing

The more I read, the more I think you should probably have bought this...

Ribble Endurance SLe

 

[Gary]

I couldn't help but have a look at the climb you're talking about (I have ridden it too BTW back when I lived in Somerset and didn't remember it being anything crazy on a standard roadbike with what gearing I'd have run back then (52/42t rings and 11-23 cassette)
it's an average of 4.6%. That's pretty much exactly the same gradient as the climb home from my local pub. Talking of 7 yr old kids. My pub bike for years has been a race BMX (ie quite a tall gear and saddle too low to sit on while pedalling up a hill). it's kinda laughable you're bragging about climbing it on an Ebike at 16mph. The top 10 on strava are doing it just under 20mph Avg

Segment Details for Cheddar Gorge - VeloViewer