S Pedelecs in the UK

[Mikerb]

I do not want this post to invite discussion about de-restriction. Im just trying to get clarity about the current legal position of owning and using an E bike that does not conform to the EPAC regulations...that is, it is not a pedelec which we all know is a bike with an electric motor maximum nominal power rating of 250w and maximum motor assisted speed of 25kph............and motor assist must only be available by pedalling.

Reading today about Cowells latest ebike crash it was interesting to note he was riding a bike called a "Das Spitzing Evolution" and it was referred to as a S Pedelec and he was riding it around the roads in London ( no comment!) .

So I looked up the bike. It uses the TQ motor and it appears the same bike is available configured in 3 different formats. One format is a pedelec ( 250w/25kph); another is a S Pedelec ( 500w/45kph) and another is what they call an R Pedelec ( 920w/55kph).

I thought the only legal ebike for use on public roads and in places with public access in the UK was a pedelec and I am pretty sure that was the case until recently. E bikes not conforming to the pedelec regulations being classified as mopeds.
I dont know when that changed but from what I can determine from the .gov website, ebikes other than pedelecs can now be purchased and used on public roads with certain conditions.

1. The bike must be "Type Approved" and that can only be done by the manufacturer. That is a very expensive process which I doubt any E Bike manufacturer could justify. There is however a workaround compromising an "individual vehicle approval". This applies to each individual bike and sounds very similar to the sort of process you have to go through to get aproval to register a kit car for example.
2. Assuming the bike has that approval certificate it must then be registered with the DVLA and be "plated".
3. The bike must be taxed ( although the rate is zero currently) and insured.
4. You have to be over 14
5. You have to have an approriate drivers licence
6. You have to wear a British Standards approved helmet ( not specified what type of helmet or what British Standard!)
7. MOT after 3 years.

I can find no detail of the "type approval test" but I assume it would include the need for lights and brake lights and horn the same as a moped. I can also not see any specific restrictions on motor power, assisted speed or use of a throttle. So it seems to me this really muddies the waters and could create negative press for pedelec EMTBs.
For example, I have no idea which configuration of the bike Cowell was riding and since the 3 different models are essentially the same full suspension mtb type design just with different power outputs, how is anyone to know the difference? He had no helmet on and apparently went over the bars after slipping on some wet tarmac.........really?? Already the comments on the media reports contain negative comments about E bikes ripping a round the streets at excessive speeds etc.

Anyone have any definitive information on what has changed and what the legal situation is in the UK ?

 

[Coolcmsc]

Hmmmmm….

Good post. Watching. Would also love to hear from somebody who is familiar with this unpublished change (well, I didn’t see it anyway ).

Apart from your main point about this hardly being good news for our emtb’s, I’m interested in the whole business of the ‘types’ of pedelec. Especially those on which the mode can be changed whilst out on a ride. These are on sale in the US in some states where some modes don’t involve the peddles, but instead a throttle - switchable modes then. And perhaps it’s now legally possible to do this in the U.K. including a throttle in one mode with the others being pedelec (if individually type approved from your findings)?

Yes, murky! Easy to fly off down a number of rabbit holes in this thread too, even without considering derestriction (I’m glad you asked us not to talk about that here!)

The types of pedelec you’ve listed and your mention of the issue of throttles are examples of rabbit holes.

Again as you have hinted at, it seems like a potential legal nightmare - perhaps leading to changes in the law for our eebs - if it becomes possibly to change ‘mode’ out on a ride on a vehicle that must be insured and might be in an accident involving the police.

My rabbit hole is that it may prove difficult to have a record of which mode the ‘bike’ was in at the time of the accident without some technical changes - you’ve alluded to this too. Keeping a record of where/when/what mode can be solved by the techno-boffins with a decent GPS signal and that data stored where it can’t be ‘wiped’ of course. But not cheaply and perhaps not without it necessarily becoming a legal requirement for all pedelecs in future because no government likes complex laws. That latter point is why what’s happening with scooters may also affect us.

Anyway, watching and I hope I’m correct in saying nothing will be retrospective…

 

[Mikerb]

The web site for those bikes is not brilliant but as rar as I can tell it inferred you could buy the bike configured in one of those 3 ways. It did not infer as far I could see that once purchased you could then change the configuration although they all seem to be equipped with the same motor and battery with the only difference being the option for additional bolt on battery range extenders for the R model ( which would clearly eat through the 1050 w/h battery standard on all 3 models pretty quickly!!) . That suggests it is maybe only a software change to re configure the bike.

 

[Coolcmsc]

I just found these two websites for the US as a kind of benchmark for what to look out for here as all this progresses. The first is a comprehensive list of what constitutes an ebike there and in which states and what’s required to ride each of the three types in each state - it seems some really don’t have rules The second is an example of the type of ‘multi class’ ebike coming out in the US which can change mode from peddles to throttle on the fly (I’m not sure if this one is still being sold, but there are others)
1. U.S. Electric Bike Regulations | QuietKat.com
2. SUPER73-S2 - The Best Affordable Multi-Class Electric Bike

Edit:- And here’s another multi class ebike that is switchable pedelec to e-motorbike that can do 80kph Electric bike at the best price power and range discounts availible | Delfast e-bike

 

[Mabman]

I would think that this would be of more interest to those in the UK than what is going on in the US?

LEVA-EU makes case for softening speed-pedelec rules in Europe

European light electric vehicle representative LEVA-EU has made a case alongside manufacturers for a reclassification on speed-pedelec legislation.

cyclingindustry.news

Regardless there is movement towards a higher speed eBike class that if it works in one country it more than likely will start providing enough revenue so that the manufacturers will all get behind it and start to lobby for it in other markets. According to the above it seems they are doing well in Belgium at least and BMW and VanMoof are trying to take it a step further allowing even higher speeds.

Will this affect the eMTB industry? I doubt it because unless you are going downhill, and have the skills to do so at speed, going uphill and across doing over 20mph is not practical, even if you have the skills to do so.

That guy Simon should probably stick to 4 wheels, and a chauffeur.

 

[Coolcmsc]

I would think that this would be of more interest to those in the UK than what is going on in the US?

LEVA-EU makes case for softening speed-pedelec rules in Europe

European light electric vehicle representative LEVA-EU has made a case alongside manufacturers for a reclassification on speed-pedelec legislation.

cyclingindustry.news

Regardless there is movement towards a higher speed eBike class that if it works in one country it more than likely will start providing enough revenue so that the manufacturers will all get behind it and start to lobby for it in other markets. According to the above it seems they are doing well in Belgium at least and BMW and VanMoof are trying to take it a step further allowing even higher speeds.

Will this affect the eMTB industry? I doubt it because unless you are going downhill, and have the skills to do so at speed, going uphill and across doing over 20mph is not practical, even if you have the skills to do so.

That guy Simon should probably stick to 4 wheels, and a chauffeur.

Yes, I agree with all that.

And for the @Moderator a suggestion if @Mikerb agrees.

It would be good - in my view - if this thread by @Mikerb became a kinda repository for news about Pedelec laws (on and off road), licensing, mandatory insurance and so forth for manufacturers’ complete e-bikes. So, as Mike asked, not for discussion of derestricted bikes which are arguably as important a topic, but fundamentally a different subject that arises from the topics (State and country Pedelec laws) in this thread.

 

[yorkshire89]

Legalities aside.... He looks like a local dealer doing the rounds
So much wrong with that bike
Steerer length
Saddle super low and really far forward
No helmet
Is that fork axle done up properly? Left the rubber cap on it
Euro style brakes - Maybe that's why he keeps crashing

 

[Mteam]

Legalities aside.... He looks like a local dealer doing the rounds
So much wrong with that bike
Steerer length
Saddle super low and really far forward
No helmet
Is that fork axle done up properly? Left the rubber cap on it
Euro style brakes - Maybe that's why he keeps crashing


View attachment 81414
View attachment 81415

Look at the number of spacers under the stem, that's hilarious!

The back wheel looks like it will bash the mudguard if he goes up/down kerbs

Fork looks under inflated

 

[Stihldog]

…those shoes, that seat …cool googles and mittens though .

 

[steve_sordy]

I do not care for Simon Cowell one bit, but....

Ref the fork steerer length and saddle position: Give the guy a break, he broke his back last year and has a rod in his spine.
Ref the Euro style brakes: Maybe he prefers them that way? Do the USA have the same? which is where he seems to spend most of his time.
Ref the mudguard: There will be no bashing, it will just bend upwards out of the way. Deffo would improve from more clearance though.
Ref the fork under inflation: How on earth can you tell from those photos?

This guy has more money than God, so you can be sure that he was not short of advice. Nobody would dare sell him a bike with the brakes "the wrong way around" and risk a massive lawsuit. I'll bet that he had a personal fitting for that bike, why wouldn't he?

Despite the money, and his undoubted sharpness of mind, it does not guarantee common sense, or style.

 

[Stihldog]

I do not care for Simon Cowell one bit, but....
Despite the money, and his undoubted sharpness of mind, it does not guarantee common sense, or style.

Baahaaa …I had no idea It was Simon.

 

[Planemo]

I can find no detail of the "type approval test"

It was a change made to the MSVA (Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval) which essentially allowed lower powered stuff to go through less regulation (and testing) to get the seal of approval. I have the full 200+ page manual somewhere, don't know if it will be too big to post here though.

It also means that getting a regulated escooter would be far easier done than previously. It would mean however that (like S-pedelecs) it wouldn't be legal on cycle paths etc and instead becomes a road vehicle only.

Edit: found a link to the manual, it's a long read but obviously not all sections will apply depending on what you are trying to get approved. Maybe one to keep in the bathroom for when dropping the kids off at the pool..

Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA): inspection manual - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

 

[Mikerb]

I would think that this would be of more interest to those in the UK than what is going on in the US?

LEVA-EU makes case for softening speed-pedelec rules in Europe

European light electric vehicle representative LEVA-EU has made a case alongside manufacturers for a reclassification on speed-pedelec legislation.

cyclingindustry.news

Regardless there is movement towards a higher speed eBike class that if it works in one country it more than likely will start providing enough revenue so that the manufacturers will all get behind it and start to lobby for it in other markets. According to the above it seems they are doing well in Belgium at least and BMW and VanMoof are trying to take it a step further allowing even higher speeds.

Will this affect the eMTB industry? I doubt it because unless you are going downhill, and have the skills to do so at speed, going uphill and across doing over 20mph is not practical, even if you have the skills to do so.

That guy Simon should probably stick to 4 wheels, and a chauffeur.

Interesting read..thanks.
Well at least that is one section of the bike industry explaining to the EU Commission what a complete nonsence and mess the entire Ebike regulations are..........and they hit the nail on the head when they said that the existing regulations all came about as an attempt to shoehorn electrically propelled bikes into existing motor transport categories. On the down side the arguments seemed to have made little impact on the EU Commission person attending. On the up side the UK is not in the EU so is free to choose its path..........and of course the US...or more specifically individual US States have done their own thing.

 

[Mikerb]

It was a change made to the MSVA (Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval) which essentially allowed lower powered stuff to go through less regulation (and testing) to get the seal of approval. I have the full 200+ page manual somewhere, don't know if it will be too big to post here though.

It also means that getting a regulated escooter would be far easier done than previously. It would mean however that (like S-pedelecs) it wouldn't be legal on cycle paths etc and instead becomes a road vehicle only.

Edit: found a link to the manual, it's a long read but obviously not all sections will apply depending on what you are trying to get approved. Maybe one to keep in the bathroom for when dropping the kids off at the pool..

Motorcycle Single Vehicle Approval (MSVA): inspection manual - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)

Thanks. I appreciate this is about construction only and the latest update appears to be January 2019 so not sure this is what we are looking for. I can still find no related information about where vehicles that go through this process can actually be used. I can only assume they are still basically in the "moped" class so road use only.

 

[Mikerb]

I do not care for Simon Cowell one bit, but....

Ref the fork steerer length and saddle position: Give the guy a break, he broke his back last year and has a rod in his spine.
Ref the Euro style brakes: Maybe he prefers them that way? Do the USA have the same? which is where he seems to spend most of his time.
Ref the mudguard: There will be no bashing, it will just bend upwards out of the way. Deffo would improve from more clearance though.
Ref the fork under inflation: How on earth can you tell from those photos?

This guy has more money than God, so you can be sure that he was not short of advice. Nobody would dare sell him a bike with the brakes "the wrong way around" and risk a massive lawsuit. I'll bet that he had a personal fitting for that bike, why wouldn't he?

Despite the money, and his undoubted sharpness of mind, it does not guarantee common sense, or style.

Im not going to knock anyone for riding a bike but the photos of Cowell on that bike are concerning given the publicity it attracted for reasons other than how hapless he looks riding it. To any casual onlooker, it is an electric MTB. I do not know which of the 3 configuration modes is applicable to his bike but it was reported as being a Speed Pedelec and therefore has motor assistance up to 45kph and the design of the bike does not look to me to be safe at half those speeds not least because it looks like the front wheel is a bout to tuck under into complete oversteer in that photo...............maybe that is what threw him over the bars??

 

[steve_sordy]

That plus if he did have the brakes the wrong way around and if the fork was too soft, then he applies a bit of rear brake when doing 35mph and over the bars he goes!

 

[Morton027]

Apparently Amanda Holden bought him Stabilisers as a joke fair play to her

 

[Frank_Denmark]

Like in Belgium the Danish laws allow Speed Pedelec with max 45 km/h to be driven on the bike paths.

The rules for using the Speed Pedelec are simple:

- Assurance are requiredli
- Helmet are required
- Lights always on

- No license plate
- No drivers license when over 18y

You can even get a High Speed cargo bike with Rohloff transmission from Rise & Müller
HS Cargo

 

[Frank_Denmark]

...from Belgium - Speed Pedelec with sidecar WTF

Badbike

 

[2WheelsNot4]

Reading today about Cowells latest ebike crash it was interesting to note he was riding a bike called a "Das Spitzing Evolution" and it was referred to as a S Pedelec and he was riding it around the roads in London ( no comment!) .

I think we could put him on a balance bike and he'd still fall on his arse

Nobody would dare sell him a bike with the brakes "the wrong way around" and risk a massive lawsuit. I'll bet that he had a personal fitting for that bike

Living in the US its likely he rides a non ebike, and there the levers are the other way around, so its no brainer to surmise that being used to that set up he fits all his bikes like that.
As to any sort of legal requirement to which way around they go, i dont think theres any legal precedent.

 

[yorkshire89]

Ref the fork steerer length and saddle position: Give the guy a break, he broke his back last year and has a rod in his spine.

I'd give him a break but that steerer length is stupid, and the saddle looks way too low and far forward, can't see that doing his back any good at all?
From the fox website:

 

[Mteam]

I'd give him a break but that steerer length is stupid, and the saddle looks way too low and far forward, can't see that doing his back any good at all?
From the fox website:
View attachment 81451

yep, I reckon he'd be better served by something like this Pure Free Step Electric Hybrid Bike | Pure Electric , designed for a less aggressive, more upright riding position - not that the bike he's on has an especially aggressive riding position, but from the position he's adjusted the bars and saddle into , its pretty clear its not a good fit for him.

I guess simon cant resist the sight of kashima coating - the same as the rest of us

 

[Morton027]

I noticed the forks aren’t the standard for the bike (they seem to be on a special edition but his doesn’t have the special edition paint job) after looking up the site, had to just look up Kashima coating lol

 

[Binhill1]

I do not want this post to invite discussion about de-restriction. Im just trying to get clarity about the current legal position of owning and using an E bike that does not conform to the EPAC regulations...that is, it is not a pedelec which we all know is a bike with an electric motor maximum nominal power rating of 250w and maximum motor assisted speed of 25kph............and motor assist must only be available by pedalling.

Reading today about Cowells latest ebike crash it was interesting to note he was riding a bike called a "Das Spitzing Evolution" and it was referred to as a S Pedelec and he was riding it around the roads in London ( no comment!) .

So I looked up the bike. It uses the TQ motor and it appears the same bike is available configured in 3 different formats. One format is a pedelec ( 250w/25kph); another is a S Pedelec ( 500w/45kph) and another is what they call an R Pedelec ( 920w/55kph).

I thought the only legal ebike for use on public roads and in places with public access in the UK was a pedelec and I am pretty sure that was the case until recently. E bikes not conforming to the pedelec regulations being classified as mopeds.
I dont know when that changed but from what I can determine from the .gov website, ebikes other than pedelecs can now be purchased and used on public roads with certain conditions.

1. The bike must be "Type Approved" and that can only be done by the manufacturer. That is a very expensive process which I doubt any E Bike manufacturer could justify. There is however a workaround compromising an "individual vehicle approval". This applies to each individual bike and sounds very similar to the sort of process you have to go through to get aproval to register a kit car for example.
2. Assuming the bike has that approval certificate it must then be registered with the DVLA and be "plated".
3. The bike must be taxed ( although the rate is zero currently) and insured.
4. You have to be over 14
5. You have to have an approriate drivers licence
6. You have to wear a British Standards approved helmet ( not specified what type of helmet or what British Standard!)
7. MOT after 3 years.

I can find no detail of the "type approval test" but I assume it would include the need for lights and brake lights and horn the same as a moped. I can also not see any specific restrictions on motor power, assisted speed or use of a throttle. So it seems to me this really muddies the waters and could create negative press for pedelec EMTBs.
For example, I have no idea which configuration of the bike Cowell was riding and since the 3 different models are essentially the same full suspension mtb type design just with different power outputs, how is anyone to know the difference? He had no helmet on and apparently went over the bars after slipping on some wet tarmac.........really?? Already the comments on the media reports contain negative comments about E bikes ripping a round the streets at excessive speeds etc.

Anyone have any definitive information on what has changed and what the legal situation is in the UK ?

There's a few running around my place on the streets , throttle controlled no peddling. Good luck to them but how are they getting away with it.

 

[maynard]

Look at the number of spacers under the stem, that's hilarious!

The back wheel looks like it will bash the mudguard if he goes up/down kerbs

Fork looks under inflated

U forgot to add . Shoelace undone .

 

[maynard]

No one mentioned what type of bike he is riding ?

 

[Mteam]

No one mentioned what type of bike he is riding ?

its in the first post.

Its a "Das Spitzing Evolution "

 

[maynard]

Ok thanks mate . Oh well . Good on him! thinking he is getting exercise just like the rest of us eeb users .

 

[Mikerb]

yes I agree but the reason I posted this is concern about what negative and incorrect publicity can occur when someone well known crashes on an E bike, and how that impacts on well designed and fully conforming pedelecs such as the EMTBs we all buy.

In this example the bike itself looks hopelessly designed or maybe just ruined with an extraordinary set up; and whether it is in fact a pedelec or a S Pedelec or even an R Pedelec. The media reported it as a S Pedelec ( not sure they would even know the difference) and that raises questions a bout whether the bike was "single user" type approved, DVLC registered, insured etc. Not that I am concerned about Cowell's or the bikes legality per se, but more that I cannot see the bike set up, as it is , would be deemed safe in a type approval test, if for no other reason than the steerer being too long, especially with a long stem. So adverse publicity for all Ebike riders can be the result for no good reason.
Cowells first "accident" was an example of that despite the fact the bike he fell off was a high powered electric motorcycle.

 

[steve_sordy]

Someone needs to contact Cowell and give him some lessons.
Not me I can't stand the guy.
But that is his public persona, in private he may be a very nice guy (or worse! )