Rise M10 vs M20

[teapeaage]

Hi! I own a 2019 Scott Genius 910 (that’s XT brakes / FOX Performance Elite 150mm fork combo) and was looking to upgrade. I’m 6’1 and 185lbs but don’t really bike super gnarly trails anymore. I do mostly running and gravel/road biking and local trails MTB is another way of trying to stay fit while having fun. And in order to keep spinning but get more out of my trails I’m thinking of either a Levo SL or a Rise and I’m almost convinced or the Rise because of the specs. I would prefer not to have to swap components upon purchase.
Now partially because of availability (especially the blue colorway) in my size but now also to save about €1500, I started looking at the M20. I can see a couple threads on the forum, but was wondering if you could help me understanding if M20’s shock and brakes combo will be decent for my riding (mostly flow trails, not really gnarly terrain) and my size (6’1, 185lbs)?

 

[Tonybro]

My personal opinion for your more cross country (XC) type riding is to go for the M20 as stock. It is spec'd well enough to cover everything you'll be doing by the sounds of it plus it should come in at less than 20kg so may be lighter than your current bike too.

If you do want to change anything you should find the €1500 enough to get some decent upgrades if needed...

 

[Schnipps]

The M20 for me is already way to expensive so I couldnt justify the M10, I also don’t do any hardcore riding either. The stock suspension is fine, as for brakes it’s easy to put a 203mm rotor up front. I haven’t found the brakes or suss to have any issues but I’m not massively experienced with other setups so perhaps not the best to comment, I am heavier than you though.

 

[Andyzim]

As an M20 owner who went through a similar decision process I agree that the M20 would be enough. I've changed bits on mine to suit my type of riding, the biggest change I've made is putting some Fox 36 forks on but the 34 were fine too if you aren't tackling anything too gnarly.

You don't get the XT shifters, brakes etc but the SLX drivetrain and brake stuff on there is still really nice to use.

 

[Pdoz]

Are you on the accoustic or eride genius?

For what it's worth, the pic below is my levo sl parked beside my daughters 2019 scott genius 940 acoustic. If you close your eyes , ignore the brakes, and fart they ride REALY similarly - at least until you turn on the power. Switching the levo to eco 25% is like flicking that magic lever on the genius. Going to full assist is like putting my daughter on instead of me......not the kick in the pants surge of a full Emtb, but more than enough that this lump of lard can enjoy the trails.

If you bought the carbon genius over an alloy , are you certain the rise will be light enough for you? More importantly, have you considered the possibility of buying a base model levo carbon and putting all the nice bits from the genius onto it?

Disclaimer - I'd have bought an m20 rise if I could source one , but got impatient.

 

[teapeaage]

As an M20 owner who went through a similar decision process I agree that the M20 would be enough. I've changed bits on mine to suit my type of riding, the biggest change I've made is putting some Fox 36 forks on but the 34 were fine too if you aren't tackling anything too gnarly.

You don't get the XT shifters, brakes etc but the SLX drivetrain and brake stuff on there is still really nice to use.

Thanks! Did you get 36 Elite or Factory? 160mm?

Yeah I’d assume a brake upgrade + maybe rotor would be necessary..

 

[teapeaage]

Are you on the accoustic or eride genius?

For what it's worth, the pic below is my levo sl parked beside my daughters 2019 scott genius 940 acoustic. If you close your eyes , ignore the brakes, and fart they ride REALY similarly - at least until you turn on the power. Switching the levo to eco 25% is like flicking that magic lever on the genius. Going to full assist is like putting my daughter on instead of me......not the kick in the pants surge of a full Emtb, but more than enough that this lump of lard can enjoy the trails.

If you bought the carbon genius over an alloy , are you certain the rise will be light enough for you? More importantly, have you considered the possibility of buying a base model levo carbon and putting all the nice bits from the genius onto it?

Disclaimer - I'd have bought an m20 rise if I could source one , but got impatient.

View attachment 63610

Yah it’s acoustic and I really like it

Yeah I could move the shock technically, as well as rotors/brakes (XT) it’s not a bad idea.. but I really wouldn’t want to spend so much cash on a new bike and ride a 3yo suspension and brakes to be fair

I don’t mind what it looks like really, and I think 2-3kgs more is worth the number of trails I can hit during the 2-3hr ride that I usually do..

 

[Andyzim]

Thanks! Did you get 36 Elite or Factory? 160mm?

Yeah I’d assume a brake upgrade + maybe rotor would be necessary..

I got a fox factory grip 2, 150mm so it's like what the M10 comes with. I'll be selling my 34 for 400 to 500 hopefully so I'll still be quids in compared to a M10.

 

[teapeaage]

I got a fox factory grip 2, 150mm so it's like what the M10 comes with. I'll be selling my 34 for 400 to 500 hopefully so I'll still be quids in compared to a M10.

What about the shock? Or is the one on it fine? You upgraded cause you hit gnarly trails or did you try the stock fork and it wasn’t enough? Thanks!

Are brakes ok for your riding?

 

[Andyzim]

What about the shock? Or is the one on it fine? You upgraded cause you hit gnarly trails or did you try the stock fork and it wasn’t enough? Thanks!

Are brakes ok for your riding?

I wanted the extra 10mm travel and slightly slacker HA the 36 would give. Also there was an element of want rather than need but no doubt the 36 factory feels a huge amount nicer. Really the 34 would have been fine, I did 2 or 3 rides on it and had no issues, it made the bike feel more nimble/agile but I haven't finished tuning/setting up the 36 yet. My local trails are generally very rooty, technical and bumpy so the extra suppleness off the top of the 36 travel is noticeable.

I'm not worried about the rear shock yet, perhaps that's something I could look at in the future. I upgraded to a 203 rotor on the front on the stock M20 caliper - I'm a lightweight 60kg odd so don't feel the need for 4pots.

 

[Jeffsy29]

I went through the M10 vs. M20 exercise too and ended up on the M10 since it's a bargain with the upgraded parts sold at market value and the bike is already very expensive. Orbea isn't marking up the parts and the list is substantial between the two compared to other manufacturers who change a fork and ask for another $1500. That said, if you *don't* have the means for an M10, the M20 will be amazing in it's own right.

To evaluate the parts differences, I went full-on geek and made a spreadsheet with either Orbea's stated cost to upgrade the part, or market cost to upgrade from M20 to M10. I came up with almost exactly the same $ in market upgrade as price differential between the two, and to see if there was any weight penalty for the more robust suspension parts (there wasn't overall). The M10, despite the heavier suspension pieces, gets lighter rims and bars making the weight differential estimated -64g on the M10 (so negligible).

 

[GMLS]

Really want to upgrade the fork and shock when I ordered my M20 a few weeks ago but the shop and the rep strongly recommended against it as the delivery date would then go from October to who knows

 

[Jeffsy29]

Really want to upgrade the fork and shock when I ordered my M20 a few weeks ago but the shop and the rep strongly recommended against it as the delivery date would then go from October to who knows

Parts are scarce period. Whether OE factory or aftermarket it’s all a long wait time unless you get really lucky

 

[Andyzim]

I had a stock alert on a fox 36 factory with CRC and had to grab it basically within a couple of hours of it becoming available.

 

[Pdoz]

Yah it’s acoustic and I really like it

Yeah I could move the shock technically, as well as rotors/brakes (XT) it’s not a bad idea.. but I really wouldn’t want to spend so much cash on a new bike and ride a 3yo suspension and brakes to be fair

I don’t mind what it looks like really, and I think 2-3kgs more is worth the number of trails I can hit during the 2-3hr ride that I usually do..

Have you seen this? How much for a Levo SL ? (frameset) - EMTB Forums

Everything from your genius would bolt straight on....

Then you could order an m20 in the custom paint / spec of your choice, by the time it actually arrives you'll be ready for a new bike

 

[crencos]

@teapeaage Do you need a carbon frame?

 

[xxxnutz]

@teapeaage Do you need a carbon frame?

YESSSSS!!!!!!!
I don't think I could go back to alloy frames

 

[crencos]

YESSSSS!!!!!!!
I don't think I could go back to alloy frames

Ok. So my advice, if you don't want to change some items, is to go with the M10. The M20 is a good starting point but have some parts that I would change like hubs and brakes.
I have one M20 to deliver to a customer and the first thing that I changed were the brakes to 4pot SLX and in the future the wheels will be changed also. Another upgrade that is a good deal to come from factory is the Fox dropper. We order all the Rise's with Fox dropper upgrade.
Persinally I have the M-Team and despite having the top shimano gear and brakes, I find it too much for my needs but it was the only avaliable after I sold my Wild FS.

 

[Jeffsy29]

YESSSSS!!!!!!!
I don't think I could go back to alloy frames

I've heard that alloy frames these days can rival carbon for weight. On an e-bike especially I'd think the weight savings is negligible and less important than frame design/suspension/proper sizing, etc.

That said, there's no getting around the natural damping properties of carbon - it is a quieter ride for sure.

I've heard that a downside of carbon is that once cracked, it can't be repaired, but this article seems to imply that some companies will repair carbon - Carbon fiber 101: How bikes are made and repaired

 

[GMLS]

It certainly can be repaired and very successfully I understand.Someone I know, knows the owner.

Carbon Bike Repair – UK's premier carbon repair shop

carbonbikerepair.co.uk

I'm sure they are not unique

 

[xxxnutz]

I've heard that alloy frames these days can rival carbon for weight. On an e-bike especially I'd think the weight savings is negligible and less important than frame design/suspension/proper sizing, etc.

That said, there's no getting around the natural damping properties of carbon - it is a quieter ride for sure.

I've heard that a downside of carbon is that once cracked, it can't be repaired, but this article seems to imply that some companies will repair carbon - Carbon fiber 101: How bikes are made and repaired

I think carbon can be repaired as easily as alloy but both are not the same strength wise after a repair.

 

[Shjay]

Carbon can be repaired & as strong as the frame was before, seen a few road bike frames repaired, I have repaired my own carbon windsurf board as strong as before

 

[teapeaage]

Eh, I'm currently in a weird where I can look at:
- Rise M20 for around $7500
- 2020 Turbo Levo SL Expert Carbon for around the same ($7500)
- Rise M10 for about $9500
- 2020 S-Works Turbo Levo SL for around $10500

The S-Works obviously includes a $600 range extender that mixes this up even more, although I am not convinced the 34 stanchions on Turbo Levo SL bikes convince me.

For my riding and weight, is there anything I should be looking at when comparing those bikes?

 

[carlbiker]

I went through the M10 vs. M20 exercise too and ended up on the M10 since it's a bargain with the upgraded parts sold at market value and the bike is already very expensive. Orbea isn't marking up the parts and the list is substantial between the two compared to other manufacturers who change a fork and ask for another $1500. That said, if you *don't* have the means for an M10, the M20 will be amazing in it's own right.

To evaluate the parts differences, I went full-on geek and made a spreadsheet with either Orbea's stated cost to upgrade the part, or market cost to upgrade from M20 to M10. I came up with almost exactly the same $ in market upgrade as price differential between the two, and to see if there was any weight penalty for the more robust suspension parts (there wasn't overall). The M10, despite the heavier suspension pieces, gets lighter rims and bars making the weight differential estimated -64g on the M10 (so negligible).

View attachment 63678

Great work! I also did one but yours is better, are you in possession of the M10 and if so how do you rate it via a full fat? I’ve an Orbea Wild and have a deposit on an M10 but I’m still on the fence a bit since I own an Orbea Wild

 

[carlbiker]

Ok. So my advice, if you don't want to change some items, is to go with the M10. The M20 is a good starting point but have some parts that I would change like hubs and brakes.
I have one M20 to deliver to a customer and the first thing that I changed were the brakes to 4pot SLX and in the future the wheels will be changed also. Another upgrade that is a good deal to come from factory is the Fox dropper. We order all the Rise's with Fox dropper upgrade.
Persinally I have the M-Team and despite having the top shimano gear and brakes, I find it too much for my needs but it was the only avaliable after I sold my Wild FS.

hey, too much for your needs, or not enough? Just with the mention ‘despite having all the top stuff’ comment cheers

 

[xxxnutz]

Great work! I also did one but yours is better, are you in possession of the M10 and if so how do you rate it via a full fat? I’ve an Orbea Wild and have a deposit on an M10 but I’m still on the fence a bit since I own an Orbea Wild

Sorry hijack this reply, just thought I'd share my experience coming from a Bosch Gen 4 full fat eMTB to the Rise M10, i was on the fence even after i had paid for and collected the Rise but after the 1st proper ride of the Rise i knew i had made a great choice, my full fat is almost 26kg, can bearley bunny hope it and wheelies are doable but not that easy, the rise feels excatley like my non 14.6kg full sus non eMTB (Stumpjumper which I have now sold), I can bunny hop it, lift the front over stuff, and i don't even need it turn on to do wheelies like a full fat. With the full fat I ploughed over most the stuff, with the Rise i jump over stuff. I was up Leith Hill with a mate on a Obera Occam and i spent most the time in off, i only use power for the big climbs (3rd ride out off of 1 charge and i still got 50% left, its not as fast as my full fat but if feels more like a non eMTB but with a decent amount of power. So if you don't mind loosing a bit top speed and like to put a bit more effort in the Rise is the one.

I did a test on the same route of Trail mode on the Rise Vs Tour on my Full Fat and there was 60 seconds in, both averaged 11.9mph over 10 miles (both restricted), unrestricted Tour with the FF was 3:40 quicker but the Rise is a lot more playful and more fun to ride.

 

[carlbiker]

Sorry hijack this reply, just thought I'd share my experience coming from a Bosch Gen 4 full fat eMTB to the Rise M10, i was on the fence even after i had paid for and collected the Rise but after the 1st proper ride of the Rise i knew i had made a great choice, my full fat is almost 26kg, can bearley bunny hope it and wheelies are doable but not that easy, the rise feels excatley like my non 14.6kg full sus non eMTB (Stumpjumper which I have now sold), I can bunny hop it, lift the front over stuff, and i don't even need it turn on to do wheelies like a full fat. With the full fat I ploughed over most the stuff, with the Rise i jump over stuff. I was up Leith Hill with a mate on a Obera Occam and i spent most the time in off, i only use power for the big climbs (3rd ride out off of 1 charge and i still got 50% left, its not as fast as my full fat but if feels more like a non eMTB but with a decent amount of power. So if you don't mind loosing a bit top speed and like to put a bit more effort in the Rise is the one.

I did a test on the same route of Trail mode on the Rise Vs Tour on my Full Fat and there was 60 seconds in, both averaged 11.9mph over 10 miles (both restricted), unrestricted Tour with the FF was 3:40 quicker but the Rise is a lot more playful and more fun to ride.

That’s great thanks?

If I’m to buy it comes next month, I went for an XL with a request for a smaller dropper as I’m 6ft but seem to slot better (shorter legs)

The only other reason not to buy (other than missus still unaware of £7k purchase ahem!) would be the daft crank issue and the fact the cheaper slightly heavier alu ones are inbound November, oh and lastly the poxy non transfer warranty stuff but I couldn’t believe I could pick the bike up one handed so seems great to me

 

[Jeffsy29]

Great work! I also did one but yours is better, are you in possession of the M10 and if so how do you rate it via a full fat? I’ve an Orbea Wild and have a deposit on an M10 but I’m still on the fence a bit since I own an Orbea Wild

@carlbiker - M10 is still backordered, ETA unknown other than "July", which I'm skeptical of given that it's nearly July.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to compare vs. my full-fat Decoy since the bike is for my wife (Small). I might be able to swing a leg and get an idea, but it won't be on the trails. Reviews say it's noticeably less than FF motors, but natural and plenty of assist.

How much do you weigh? I'm 270 lbs all geared up. So that's 3.85 lbs/Nm that my 70Nm Decoy (E8000 motor) needs to carry.

I can say that on analog rides with buddies, I need to de-tune my 70Nm Decoy in "ECO" to it's lowest setting to ride fairly with them. That leaves a LOT of power on the table. Riding solo, I typically ride in "TRAIL" in low or mid setting depending on the terrain. I use "BOOST" only for the toughest climbs or when I get bored on fire-roads and need to get it over with.

The Rise is still 60 Nm....85% the torque of my Decoy. 60 Nm is more than you might think. So even if you were a hefty 231 lbs all geared up, riding a M10 that EP8 motor would be lugging about the same lbs/Nm as my E8000 when I'm riding my Decoy. Make sense?

My wife, at maybe 125 lbs with gear is going to kick my ass (uphill at least).

 

[carlbiker]

@carlbiker - M10 is still backordered, ETA unknown other than "July", which I'm skeptical of given that it's nearly July.

Unfortunately, I won't be able to compare vs. my full-fat Decoy since the bike is for my wife (Small). I might be able to swing a leg and get an idea, but it won't be on the trails. Reviews say it's noticeably less than FF motors, but natural and plenty of assist.

How much do you weigh? I'm 270 lbs all geared up. So that's 3.85 lbs/Nm that my 70Nm Decoy (E8000 motor) needs to carry.

I can say that on analog rides with buddies, I need to de-tune my 70Nm Decoy in "ECO" to it's lowest setting to ride fairly with them. That leaves a LOT of power on the table. Riding solo, I typically ride in "TRAIL" in low or mid setting depending on the terrain. I use "BOOST" only for the toughest climbs or when I get bored on fire-roads and need to get it over with.

The Rise is still 60 Nm....85% the torque of my Decoy. 60 Nm is more than you might think. So even if you were a hefty 231 lbs all geared up, riding a M10 that EP8 motor would be lugging about the same lbs/Nm as my E8000 when I'm riding my Decoy. Make sense?

My wife, at maybe 125 lbs with gear is going to kick my ass (uphill at least).

185 Ibs myself without gear on, if it was a Bosch motor then I’d know for sure 60nm is plenty but since the shimano appears weaker (Judging by very few videos is seems more like 52nm of ‘Bosch’ equivalent power) then it’s a fair drop from the 85nm. I’ve abit of a dilemma as I’ve a slipped disc In the lumber area and so I get sciatic shots down my calves so if I feel a flare up coming I can just stick more power and carry on, I’ve not had anything to worry about as of yet (touch wood).

So the main issue is getting the bike, finding it’s not ideal and then you can’t sell unless you chop 1-2k off it due to the warranty issues. There are more popping up for sale than I’m hoping to see but not sure why, just something to consider.

I am finding eco/tour is working okay, okay makes it feel like a normal bike I think and tour seems plenty for climbs, like even then it# too easy!

 

[Jeffsy29]

@carlbiker - I've not ridden a Bosch, so I can't comment. But I weigh 75 lbs *more* than you, with a weaker 70Nm Shimano motor.

I have chronic L4/L5, L5/S1 sciatica issues too since early 2000s, never got surgery. I've got a very small stripe of dead nerve down the lateral side of my leg but it's very minor. Since yoga body-awareness education and stretching, I've thankfully haven't had many crippling episodes in 20 years. Bad knees...the works. That's why I went e-bike in the first place. 70Nm still seems plenty for me riding solo.

I would take a look at your current settings for motor assist. What mode do you currently use? I'm not familiar with Bosch's eMTB mode but Shimano has ECO/TRAIL/BOOST. You can do a mock-up ride of 52 Nm just by dialing down your assist and see what that's like. Of course your FF bike is 10lbs heavier than an M10 I'm guessing, but at least you'll get a feel for your "minimum acceptable assist" and go from there.

Which begs the question....with all your concern for Nm specs and motor support, why are you shopping for a Rise in the first place? I think the Rise is definitely king for the lightweight emtbs right now and not at all lacking for power *within it's class*, but if power is #1 in what you're after, sounds like your FF bike is the best answer to your needs.