Reliable hubs?

[jono878]

I've not had to much luck with wheels at the moment.
Nukeproof horizon rear wheel spokes started unwinding after truing. Trek are saying you should try some Loctite on the nipples which might solve the problem. The current rear Stan's Flow EX3 rim / wheel is still straight after 7 months but the ebike hope pro 5 hub ended up failing.

I need to get a rear wheel sorted fairly soon & debating getting another wheel built up with a different hub.

Anyone had these hubs fail fairly quickly DT Swiss 350 / Dt Swiss 240 or Industry 9 1/1 hubs with an ebike ?

 

[Mikerb]

DT Swiss HX 1700 wheel.......................all upgraded for EMTB use......spokes/hub (350)/freehub ( steel).

 

[RustyIron]

I've used DT Swiss off and on for many, many years. Recently, I put 4450 hard miles on some 350's before selling them. At one time there were some noises coming from that area, so DT Swiss sent me bearings and tools as part of their warranty. It turned out that the noise wasn't the hubs. But their willingness to help says loads about the company.

I'm currently running some 240 hybrids. I really like the quietness of these hubs. They use the DT Swiss ratcheting system, so I expect they'll last the life of the bike... or the life of the bike until I sell it.

My experience hasn't been as good with Industry Nine.

If your primary gripe is the need to retention spokes, keep in mind that it's SOP for aluminum rims. Carbon rims are more "set it and forget it." With aluminum, you need to check them, especially after an initial break-in period.

 

[Rod B.]

I've not had to much luck with wheels at the moment.
Nukeproof horizon rear wheel spokes started unwinding after truing. Trek are saying you should try some Loctite on the nipples which might solve the problem. The current rear Stan's Flow EX3 rim / wheel is still straight after 7 months but the ebike hope pro 5 hub ended up failing.

I need to get a rear wheel sorted fairly soon & debating getting another wheel built up with a different hub.

Anyone had these hubs fail fairly quickly DT Swiss 350 / Dt Swiss 240 or Industry 9 1/1 hubs with an ebike ?

Jono878,

I've used both D.T. Swiss 350, Industry Nine Torch, Hydra and 1/1 hubs on my eBikes. At issue is the heavy torque leverage which eBike motors place upon the freehub. Some hub "freehub" designs can handle eBike motor torque better than others.

My following response will be limited to Industry Nine and D.T. Swiss as those are the only hubs I've used.

I started keeping track of my mountain bike rides on Strava beginning in May of 2016. Since May 2016, I've done 1,317 rides, ridden 19,000 miles (30,577 km) with a total of 2,469,334.00 feet of elevation gain. During this period of riding, I've gone through a few hubs, spokes and wheelsets. I found some rims, spokes, nipples and hubs were better than others, some were absolute garbage.

Note: A rear hub used on a traditional pedal bike can go thousands of miles before needing a rear hub bearing replacement. I find this is not so for eBikes. The torque from the motor places a tremendous amount of stress on the right, drive side hub bearing and freehub bearings. This is especially so if you ride terrain featuring technical or punchy climbs which places a lot of stress on the freehub. I found that on eBikes, the right side hub bearing and two freehub bearings will need to be replaced more frequently, i.e. after approximately 1,800 miles of hard use.

It's been my experience that D.T. Swiss hubs and the star ratchet design on the D.T. Swiss freehub/driver is pretty much bullet proof. The 350 hub can take a lot of abuse. I have one set of wheels with D.T. Swiss 350 hubs which have over 9,000 miles on them. Lastly, I like that you can find good deals on 350 hubs which won't break the wallet.

Industry Nine uses an alloy freehub housing with pawl pockets machined into the alloy freehub carrier. Both the Hydra and 1/1 freehubs hold six engagement pawls. The freehub pawls rotate in pawl pockets and engage the hub drive ring when you pedal.

Industry Nine Hydra Freehub Industry Nine 1/1 Freehub

It's been my experience that after about 2,500 miles of hard riding, the pawl pockets in the alloy freehub carrier will start to deform due to the stress which the motor places upon the freehub and pawls. Gradually, the deformation of the pawl pocket will allow the pawls to shift and not engage the drive ring properly, i.e. your bike won't go. The deformation will eventually strip the pawls and or the drive ring and the freehub will need to be replaced.

Deformed pawl pockets

I have not tried Hope, Chris King, Onyx, Raceface, etc., hubs and therefore cannot comment upon their reliability. I found the D.T. Swiss 350 hub to be reliable.

In the past, I have purchased off the shelf wheelsets. I have not had good luck with off the shelf wheelsets. They never seemed to go the distance. After a short period of riding, spokes would break, nipples would break, wheels would go out of true, etc. The old adage 'You get what you pay for" holds true when it comes to wheelsets. This is especially so if you buy a base model bike which they all tend to come with the cheapest wheelset the bike manufacturer can source at a bargain cost.

If you have the budget, a custom wheelset is the way to go. I prefer this method because I can specify what type of rim will be used, i.e. carbon or alloy and the spoke count for each rim, i.e. 28 on the front and 32 on the rear. I can also specify the type and gauge of spoke for each wheel, i.e. Sapim D-Light on the front wheel and heavier gauge Sapim Race on the rear wheel.

I typically build the rear wheel on my eBikes with a 32 hole rim and heavier gauge spokes. The rear wheel needs to withstand the affects of spoke "Windup" caused by the motor torqueing the rear wheel and propelling the bike forward. This is especially so on technical terrain where much load and stress is placed on the rear wheel. I believe the likely cause of your rear wheel spokes loosening is due to spoke windup. I typically build my front wheels with 28 spokes and a lighter gauge spoke. The rear wheel however, must be more robust. This is especially so if the rider weighs closer to 200 lbs.

I prefer "J" bend spokes over straight pull spokes. There's less a chance of the spoke twisting and loosening over time due to rear wheel windup. A good quality thread locker will help prevent straight pull spokes from loosening. I prefer brass nipples over alloy nipples. The ammonia in tire sealant, i.e. Stans, will cause alloy nipples to corrode and eventually fracture. Brass nipples while a bit heavier, do not corrode.

There are multiple companies which can build a custom wheelset. I have also purchased wheel parts myself and then had my local bike shop build the wheelset for me. If you have a local bike shop build the wheelset, make sure they have a knowledgeable wheel builder on site. Here is an example of an online wheel builder I have used in the past with good results.

Custom Wheel Builder

Our MTB wheels are hand built by wheel building masters to give you an exceptional ride. Combine your favorite hubs, rims, spokes and nipples from top brands including Industry Nine, Nobl, Stan's NoTubes and more.

customwheelbuilder.com

Regarding rims. In the past I have used both alloy and carbon. Alloy wheels tend to have a more complaint feel and tend to provide a softer ride. The downside to alloy is their ability to bend or flatten when they hit a square edged rock. The areas where I ride feature a large amount of rocks. After a few months of riding and rocks pinging off of the rims, they begin to look like they were hit with a shotgun blast.

I prefer carbon rims over alloy rims. I have used both Nobl (TR37) and We are One (Union) carbon rims. I really like the rims which both of these companies produce. They ride nice, the price is reasonable and they have an excellent warranty. In 2019, I had a very bad accident which destroyed my ankle. Whereas before I liked a rim that allowed me to ping off of every trail kicker in sight, I now prefer a carbon wheel that is more complaint and forgiving.

I'm presently running on my Specialized Turbo Levo a set of Zipp 3Zero Moto rims, 28H front, 32H rear, D.T. Swiss 350 hubs with SRAM XD driver, Sapim D-light spokes on the front and Sapim Race on the rear. I have 2,200 miles on the wheelset and other than a drive side rear hub bearing replacement, I have had no issues nor any need to have the wheels trued.

I hope this helps.
Rod

 

[Weeksy]

Hope Pro4 and now Pro5 have always been my go-to, currently got them fitted on the DH bike and the Rise, just do as they're supposed to really and work happily and nicely. I've run many many Hopes over the years even going back to Pro2, they've all been sweet.

 

[big_scot_nanny]

Only way I've found to ensure a reliably reliable rear hub is to have a custom machined solid bolted rear axle to stop the flex. Solid Stainless steel preferably, or solid alu as a backup. Currently have said axles in my Pro4 and Pro5 Hope hubs as they shat themselves spectacularly on many occasions over the years. Held with M8 bolts.

Bolts for most recent caused some headaches as hanger is UDH, but we found a way.

It's the flex that kills freehubs/bearings mostly I believe.

I'm very interested to try Xeno Hubs | King of the Mountain , but proprietary discs and cost put me off.

I have broken every single hub i have ever used on any bike, normal or E, mostly freehub/pawl/ratchet ring or freehub bearing failure related. Mavic, Hunt, DT Swiss, Hope, Nukeproof, Stans, Formula, etc etc. Failures just happen faster on the eeb. I'm not THAT heavy (115kgs), but me + quite strong legs + tall/long cranks = lots of leverage and it seems to cause issues that my riding colleauges don;t have of similar size weight. I must pedal wrong!

As above, solid axles stop the flex and prevent failures, but you do need to keep an eye on the drive side hub and inner freehub bearings as they are taking the abuse. As per Rod B.

 

[steve_sordy]

Avoid e13 freehubs. I thought that their 5-year warranty on the wheelset indicated confidence in their quality. I was wrong.

The freehub failed at typically 710 miles interval.
I had three freehubs fail on me, the last one while a buyer was test riding the bike!

On each occasion, the tech guy at the UK agent told me that he never sees e13 hubs. On each occasion, more and more of it was replaced. On the third one, the complete hub and all the bearings etc was replaced. The buyer I referred to earlier was happy enough with the bike to go ahead anyway once I'd replaced the hub. It failed on him too after (any guesses?) 720 miles! He told me that he gave up, didn't bother with a fourth warranty claim, just kept the rear rim and built a new wheel around it. There were no problems with the front wheel at all, faultless.

 

[jono878]

Only way I've found to ensure a reliably reliable rear hub is to have a custom machined solid bolted rear axle to stop the flex. Solid Stainless steel preferably, or solid alu as a backup. Currently have said axles in my Pro4 and Pro5 Hope hubs as they shat themselves spectacularly on many occasions over the years. Held with M8 bolts.

Bolts for most recent caused some headaches as hanger is UDH, but we found a way.

View attachment 140786

It's the flex that kills freehubs/bearings mostly I believe.

I'm very interested to try Xeno Hubs | King of the Mountain , but proprietary discs and cost put me off.

I have broken every single hub i have ever used on any bike, normal or E, mostly freehub/pawl/ratchet ring or freehub bearing failure related. Mavic, Hunt, DT Swiss, Hope, Nukeproof, Stans, Formula, etc etc. Failures just happen faster on the eeb. I'm not THAT heavy (115kgs), but me + quite strong legs + tall/long cranks = lots of leverage and it seems to cause issues that my riding colleauges don;t have of similar size weight. I must pedal wrong!

As above, solid axles stop the flex and prevent failures, but you do need to keep an eye on the drive side hub and inner freehub bearings as they are taking the abuse. As per Rod B.

You must do a lot of riding or something break so much! I usually just break spokes or the odd rim over the years.what frame is that ? This is my first hub & a mate has just had a warranty on a Bontrager freehub after about 600miles due to the bearings!

I have ordered another custom built wheel with an upgraded D.T. Swiss 350 Hub & may get hope wheel back sooner than expected under warranty.

Cheers for the all the reply's.

 

[Gilbo]

Hands on wheels on Facebook built me a set of wheels using Bitex hubs , dt Swiss 511 rims and sapin spokes. Had um 18 months on an emtb ride as much as 4 times a week on every terrain (mud slop gravel big rocks) and compete in enduro events. Never had a moments trouble with um and never had water past the o rings or the seals.

 

[Julie_X1]

Jono878,

I've used both D.T. Swiss 350, Industry Nine Torch, Hydra and 1/1 hubs on my eBikes. At issue is the heavy torque leverage which eBike motors place upon the freehub. Some hub "freehub" designs can handle eBike motor torque better than others.

My following response will be limited to Industry Nine and D.T. Swiss as those are the only hubs I've used.

I started keeping track of my mountain bike rides on Strava beginning in May of 2016. Since May 2016, I've done 1,317 rides, ridden 19,000 miles (30,577 km) with a total of 2,469,334.00 feet of elevation gain. During this period of riding, I've gone through a few hubs, spokes and wheelsets. I found some rims, spokes, nipples and hubs were better than others, some were absolute garbage.

Note: A rear hub used on a traditional pedal bike can go thousands of miles before needing a rear hub bearing replacement. I find this is not so for eBikes. The torque from the motor places a tremendous amount of stress on the right, drive side hub bearing and freehub bearings. This is especially so if you ride terrain featuring technical or punchy climbs which places a lot of stress on the freehub. I found that on eBikes, the right side hub bearing and two freehub bearings will need to be replaced more frequently, i.e. after approximately 1,800 miles of hard use.

It's been my experience that D.T. Swiss hubs and the star ratchet design on the D.T. Swiss freehub/driver is pretty much bullet proof. The 350 hub can take a lot of abuse. I have one set of wheels with D.T. Swiss 350 hubs which have over 9,000 miles on them. Lastly, I like that you can find good deals on 350 hubs which won't break the wallet.


View attachment 140769



Industry Nine uses an alloy freehub housing with pawl pockets machined into the alloy freehub carrier. Both the Hydra and 1/1 freehubs hold six engagement pawls. The freehub pawls rotate in pawl pockets and engage the hub drive ring when you pedal.

Industry Nine Hydra Freehub Industry Nine 1/1 Freehub
View attachment 140776 View attachment 140771


It's been my experience that after about 2,500 miles of hard riding, the pawl pockets in the alloy freehub carrier will start to deform due to the stress which the motor places upon the freehub and pawls. Gradually, the deformation of the pawl pocket will allow the pawls to shift and not engage the drive ring properly, i.e. your bike won't go. The deformation will eventually strip the pawls and or the drive ring and the freehub will need to be replaced.

Deformed pawl pockets
View attachment 140775

I have not tried Hope, Chris King, Onyx, Raceface, etc., hubs and therefore cannot comment upon their reliability. I found the D.T. Swiss 350 hub to be reliable.

In the past, I have purchased off the shelf wheelsets. I have not had good luck with off the shelf wheelsets. They never seemed to go the distance. After a short period of riding, spokes would break, nipples would break, wheels would go out of true, etc. The old adage 'You get what you pay for" holds true when it comes to wheelsets. This is especially so if you buy a base model bike which they all tend to come with the cheapest wheelset the bike manufacturer can source at a bargain cost.

If you have the budget, a custom wheelset is the way to go. I prefer this method because I can specify what type of rim will be used, i.e. carbon or alloy and the spoke count for each rim, i.e. 28 on the front and 32 on the rear. I can also specify the type and gauge of spoke for each wheel, i.e. Sapim D-Light on the front wheel and heavier gauge Sapim Race on the rear wheel.

I typically build the rear wheel on my eBikes with a 32 hole rim and heavier gauge spokes. The rear wheel needs to withstand the affects of spoke "Windup" caused by the motor torqueing the rear wheel and propelling the bike forward. This is especially so on technical terrain where much load and stress is placed on the rear wheel. I believe the likely cause of your rear wheel spokes loosening is due to spoke windup. I typically build my front wheels with 28 spokes and a lighter gauge spoke. The rear wheel however, must be more robust. This is especially so if the rider weighs closer to 200 lbs.

I prefer "J" bend spokes over straight pull spokes. There's less a chance of the spoke twisting and loosening over time due to rear wheel windup. A good quality thread locker will help prevent straight pull spokes from loosening. I prefer brass nipples over alloy nipples. The ammonia in tire sealant, i.e. Stans, will cause alloy nipples to corrode and eventually fracture. Brass nipples while a bit heavier, do not corrode.

There are multiple companies which can build a custom wheelset. I have also purchased wheel parts myself and then had my local bike shop build the wheelset for me. If you have a local bike shop build the wheelset, make sure they have a knowledgeable wheel builder on site. Here is an example of an online wheel builder I have used in the past with good results.

Custom Wheel Builder

Our MTB wheels are hand built by wheel building masters to give you an exceptional ride. Combine your favorite hubs, rims, spokes and nipples from top brands including Industry Nine, Nobl, Stan's NoTubes and more.

customwheelbuilder.com

Regarding rims. In the past I have used both alloy and carbon. Alloy wheels tend to have a more complaint feel and tend to provide a softer ride. The downside to alloy is their ability to bend or flatten when they hit a square edged rock. The areas where I ride feature a large amount of rocks. After a few months of riding and rocks pinging off of the rims, they begin to look like they were hit with a shotgun blast.

I prefer carbon rims over alloy rims. I have used both Nobl (TR37) and We are One (Union) carbon rims. I really like the rims which both of these companies produce. They ride nice, the price is reasonable and they have an excellent warranty. In 2019, I had a very bad accident which destroyed my ankle. Whereas before I liked a rim that allowed me to ping off of every trail kicker in sight, I now prefer a carbon wheel that is more complaint and forgiving.

I'm presently running on my Specialized Turbo Levo a set of Zipp 3Zero Moto rims, 28H front, 32H rear, D.T. Swiss 350 hubs with SRAM XD driver, Sapim D-light spokes on the front and Sapim Race on the rear. I have 2,200 miles on the wheelset and other than a drive side rear hub bearing replacement, I have had no issues nor any need to have the wheels trued.

I hope this helps.
Rod

Wow, what helpful and well organized info. I’m saving this!

My very limited experience with the hubs and wheels on my husband’s and I’s bikes (regular and e-MTBs) leads me to go for DT Swiss 350 on future wheel builds.

I have tried Industry Nine EDITED to add: 1:1 hubs but would go back to DT Swiss 350, even with the lower points of engagement. Which is noticeable to me, no question, but I don’t think is consequential, at least not for me. (As long as there’s at least 36 POE.)

I also prefer carbon for the reasons so well stated above. I know weight’s not really a reason on an e-MTB, but I prefer the way they ride and the increased precision.

Since I am very sensitive to vibrations (I have very small hands and wrists, etc.), in addition to using carbon handlebars that are effective at dampening vibrations, I also went with a compliant rim like We Are One’s Convergence (which are more compliant than their Unions). The wheels are still stiffer than the aluminum wheels that came stock on my e-MTB but they are nice and compliant for carbon wheels.

 

[p3eps]

Industry Nine uses an alloy freehub housing with pawl pockets machined into the alloy freehub carrier. Both the Hydra and 1/1 freehubs hold six engagement pawls. The freehub pawls rotate in pawl pockets and engage the hub drive ring when you pedal.

Industry Nine Hydra Freehub Industry Nine 1/1 Freehub
View attachment 140776 View attachment 140771


It's been my experience that after about 2,500 miles of hard riding, the pawl pockets in the alloy freehub carrier will start to deform due to the stress which the motor places upon the freehub and pawls. Gradually, the deformation of the pawl pocket will allow the pawls to shift and not engage the drive ring properly, i.e. your bike won't go. The deformation will eventually strip the pawls and or the drive ring and the freehub will need to be replaced.

Deformed pawl pockets
View attachment 140775

Some great info in there.

Just an FYI... I was in contact with i9 over the last few days as a bearing in my wheels seemed to be making a racket. The wheels are i9 carbon EN310/325, and are only about 6 months old, and hadn't seen nearly as much action as I'd have liked. They're sending me out a new bearing kit for the rear wheel under warranty.
I had a look under the end caps and they’re still well greased and clean looking with no grit or contaminants. Must just be a dodgy bearing?

I linked them to this thread and asked about the pawl pocket issue you mention. They said they have seen this in the past, and that if it happens to let them know and they'd send a new freehub out under warranty... so nothing to worry about.
My experience of i9 has been great. Their support has always been A1.

On another note, I ran the original Roval Carbon wheels that came with my previous Levo SL (with DT 350 hubs) for over 3 years without ANY maintenance, and never had an issue with them.
They seem to be pretty bulletproof.

 

[G-Sport]

Only way I've found to ensure a reliably reliable rear hub is to have a custom machined solid bolted rear axle to stop the flex. Solid Stainless steel preferably, or solid alu as a backup. Currently have said axles in my Pro4 and Pro5 Hope hubs as they shat themselves spectacularly on many occasions over the years. Held with M8 bolts.



It's the flex that kills freehubs/bearings mostly I believe.

I'm very interested to try Xeno Hubs | King of the Mountain , but proprietary discs and cost put me off.

Axles are the weak spot. I used to make solid axles similar to what you have done, its a good budget option.

I have the Xeno hubs now, can highly recommend. The discs are a concern, they are very expensive BUT they are also the only discs I have ever had that haven't warped at all, every other disc I have had has warped almost immediately and if I ever went back to a hub with a normal mounting (which I can't see happening) then I would buy their discs for it anyway. Just don't use them with the cheap Amazon pads as they will ruin the discs.

Full disclosure, I am a friend of Steve at KOM and have been riding/testing them for several years now. The stiffer axle and better sealing makes for very very long bearing life, I did change my bearings once because I felt like it was probably overdue but I found it hard to tell the difference between the old and new and kept the old as spares, so in 4 years I have had two sets (but still have both).

 

[E-MAD MALC]

I be honest it's a mine field trying to find any product that will last
There's always someone that's had bad experiences with what ever great brands that are out there
You see the professional riders with the top products, there lucky no doughty gets swapped out ever meeting so I would say not many miles goes into the product
I've found the Hunt 29 &27 E induro 37 wide rims with 32 spoke rear & 28 in the front with the 5 degree pawls ratchet have been fine for me and a sensible price
Little bit heavier but not really bothered about that

 

[MB1]

DT240 for me every time, robust, quiet and have proven totally reliable for me with simple regular services; and boy have they had some abuse!

 

[emtbPhil]

Never had an issue with hope personally - run Pro 4's and they're a piece of piss to rebuild/service. So just strip them down and service every year.

 

[RustyIron]

It's been my experience that after about 2,500 miles of hard riding, the pawl pockets in the alloy freehub carrier will start to deform due to the stress which the motor places upon the freehub and pawls.

Those itty-bitty pawl pockets that hold the itty-bitty pawls showed serious deformation on my Acoustic Bike. It was considerably worse than in your picture, but the hub still worked when I sold the bike.

I'm not a fan of the Industry Nine Philosophy, where only one pawl engages at a time. They claim their "one pawl engagement" is superior because their hubs are noodly and deform under load so that all the pawls engage. Maybe I'm too old school, but I still believe that rigid, precisely machined hubs are inherently superior. The Noodle Hub Concept could be the cause of broken axles on Industry Nine hubs.

 

[darwink1]

I honestly don't think too many of the hubs on the market are suited to emtbs. While I have had good luck with the dt350 that came with the bike it's the wheelset I use the least so I can't really comment on longevity.

I have hydras on my 2 other wheelsets with about 1000 to 1200km on each of them and so far so good.

I did spin the ratchet ring on my efat bike hydra two winters ago on literally the 3rd ride with the new wheelset so I'm just waiting to see what happens when the skinny hubs get even more mileage.

D

 

[Dirtnvert]

DT Swiss HX 1700 wheel.......................all upgraded for EMTB use......spokes/hub (350)/freehub ( steel).

X2 my 2019 decoy came with these and theyve been put thru the ringer. Still original bearings and zero issues. Decent price as well. Im impressed

 

[jono878]

just an update. must of done at least 700+ miles on dt350 hub with a Stan's Flow EX3 rim with no problems. 3 weeks in Europe & the alps + Ard rock.

 

[stripes]

I came here for this thread. thank you for starting it.

I recently have been struggling to pedal on both the e-mtb and the acoustic, and it's mainly because of the Oynx Vespers. They accelerate, but man, they seem to slow down considerably after a few hundred miles.

I went back to DT350s on both my bikes at this point--glad to see a lot of people are happy with the DTs. They're bombproof, and they work. I would love to see how Hadleys hold up.

Interesting to read the axles are the weak link. I may mention something to Ibis to see if they have a stronger axle in the works for their Oso.