Rear mech compatibility

[ccrdave]

Does anybody know if a 10 speed rear mech will work with an 11 speed cassette and an 11 speed shifter and visa versa. The way i see it is its the shifter that dicates the movement of the mech not the mech itself.
Am i wrong?

 

[Taffyteg]

Hmmmmmm makes sense they should work. I know Sram 11spd rear mech works with Shimano 11spd, can't really comment on anything else

 

[Kernow]

Hmmmmmm makes sense they should work. I know Sram 11spd rear mech works with Shimano 11spd, can't really comment on anything else

You made scram mech work with shimano shifter ? Or shimano cassette

 

[ccrdave]

Excellent thank you, i want to play with 11 speed and 10 speed setups (and maybe 9 speed) and its easier if I just change the cassette and shifter

 

[ccrdave]

Understood but is sram/ shimano 10/11 speed mech compatible with a 9 speed cassette and shifter

 

[Kernow]

Shimano 10 and 11 speed mechs are interchangable. Obviously you need a 10 speed shifter for a 10 speed cassette and an 11 speed shifter for an 11 speed cassette.
SRAM and shimano cassettes have the same sprocket spacing (per speed) so will work with either system. (but sram 11 speed cassettes need an XD freehub)
SRAM 10 and 11 speed mechs are not interchangable as far as I know.

Now you’ve complicated it , I was asking if taffyteg meant he had combined Scam mech with shimano shifter somehow . I understand there’s a different ratio between scram and shimano shifters so thought that each make required its own shifter . I know the normal cassettes will interchange but not the horrible XD

 

[ccrdave]

Now you’ve complicated it , I was asking if taffyteg meant he had combined Scam mech with shimano shifter somehow . I understand there’s a different ratio between scram and shimano shifters so thought that each make required its own shifter . I know the normal cassettes will interchange but not the horrible XD

Sram and shimano have different pull ratios, Gary was answering my question about rear mech compatibility

 

[Kernow]

I think my iPad was correcting the spelling of SRAM to scram ? I complicated it because I thought your reply was to my question not the one before . so it appeared to elaborate .
Daughters boyfriend ran an xd SRAM setup for a season 2 years ago , once it was worn enough to need a new chain we had nothing but trouble getting it to shift properly ,despite a new chain ,and it only seemed to like SRAM chain , there was no major wear on the cassette but it needed replacing before shifting was restored . I’ve come across a number of riders having the same problems . The xd feehub was a pain because it wasn’t compatable with other wheels etc we were using,
My new commencal has the ex1 that you think is a joke , we have all had issues setting it up , perhaps it’s just another learning curve but unlike shimano I find SRAM fussy complicated and expensive , hoping I’ll be converted if the ex1 is tough enough to last on the ebike .
I agree SRAM has the greater range of gearing which is a problem I gave with shimano 1x11 setups for me , but younger fitter riders dont seem to need that range

 

[Kernow]

Sorry. but this doesn't seem like a problem with SRAM's components at all. These anecdotes sound like a combination of worn parts and trying to bodge a solution on the cheap with not enough experience.
No wear on the cassette? C'mon, Eh? It's mountainbiking! sprockets, chains and rings wear every ride. I actually tend to leave everything running until it's all so worn chains slip then replace the lot instead of messing about replacing half worn chains.

My thoughts on any new bike equipped with EX1 are Sell it straight away (unused) if anyone's naive enough to want it. and replace with SLX (or higher) for half the price and a better spread of gears..

I'm not particularly a fanboi of either SCAM or SHITMANO BTW.
(they both have their faults and both take the piss on pricing in one area or another, and that'll never change so long so enough cyclists with deep pockets exist)

You leave it all to wear until it’s slipping and replace the lot instead of messing with a new chain ?and you call me Naive and inexperienced . What are your favourite walking boots ?

 

[Japuserid]

I actually tend to leave everything running until it's all so worn chains slip then replace the lot instead of messing about replacing half worn chains. I won't even contemplate buying/using a groupset if I can't justify the cost of the wear parts.

My thoughts on any new bike equipped with EX1 are Sell it straight away (unused) if anyone's naive enough to want it. and replace with SLX (or higher) for half the price and a better spread of gears..

REALLY

So, Gary, for the record, you are stating that, as a 'highly experienced cycle mechanic', you would rather replace everything, every 600 or 700 miles, than replace a chain every 300 to 400 miles and potentially make the rest of the transmission, last between 2000 to 2500 miles

I don't think we will need Rachel Riley to do the math on this one And thank's for the well considered advice on EX1, a product designed specifically for Emtb, by top design engineers tasked with developing a more robust and focused transmission, to better with stand the rigors of electrically assisted mountain bikes.

Obviously with your vast experience of E-bikes you clearly know better

Perhaps you would do well to refrain from giving out such reckless advice and ill considered opinion until you have actually owned or at the very least ridden one.

 

[eFat]

you would rather replace everything, every 600 or 700 miles

If you go until everything is completely worn it will be much more than this.

If you really want to go to the max, you should rotate 2 or 3 chains every couple hundreds of km.

 

[ccrdave]

The ex1 might have been “ built for ebikes “but it wont suit all ebikes, i reckon those bike that like a high and consistent cadence to produce the best power curve wont do very well with the big jumps in the gear ratios. Im only guessing but ludicrous pricing aside i wouldnt fit one to my bike

 

[Japuserid]

600miles? Nope. As eFat said. Much more like 1800 all weather miles without needing to replacing the chain.

IF I had access to Rachel I certainly wouldn't be asking maths questions or talking about bikes with her.

Go ahead and buy EX1. it only works out at £49 per sprocket. There' ll be no difference in the sprocket material or durability between those sprockets than a (£15) HG50 uses. but it's your money. If you're honestly that gullible and easy to sell new stuff to don't let my advice taint your purchase?

I'd much rather spend the £375 on a nice hotel room for me n Rach for the night

We clearly don't all have the same priorities though, eh?

Ps. do you actually have anything helpful at all to say about rear mech compatibility for the OP?

If you think you are going to get 1800 miles from a single chain on an Emtb, you are even more naive than I originally thought.

 

[Japuserid]

The ex1 might have been “ built for ebikes “but it wont suit all ebikes, i reckon those bike that like a high and consistent cadence to produce the best power curve wont do very well with the big jumps in the gear ratios. Im only guessing but ludicrous pricing aside i wouldnt fit one to my bike

Hi CCR

Had the Bosch CX with XT 11-42, 11 speed for two years, worked fine but was for ever multi shifting to keep up with the pedals, always felt it simply had to many gears, I honestly think it would have been a better package with EX1.

Now 300 miles into Shimano E 8000 with EX1 and I love it, no issues whatsoever with cadence and if you have never experienced the way EX1 will allow you to accelerate through the gears under full chat in boost you are really missing out.

Can't speak for the Yamaha or Brose, but I have ridden both motors and I can't really see why EX1 would be a problem?

 

[ccrdave]

Sounds very good but i am not familliar with the bosch motor but the brose likes the cadence fairly high and consistent, but i was only guessing as i have not tried the ex1. Glad it works for you though.
I think I can put together an 8 speed cassette with more or less the same ratios as the ex1 so i might give it a try

 

[Kernow]

The ex1 might have been “ built for ebikes “but it wont suit all ebikes, i reckon those bike that like a high and consistent cadence to produce the best power curve wont do very well with the big jumps in the gear ratios. Im only guessing but ludicrous pricing aside i wouldnt fit one to my bike

That’s currently my dilemma , there’s a few of the regular climes I do I am in eco and riding with normal bikes , Iam feeling a could pull a gear between what I have , but I even used to find that on 1x11 with a wide spread on a normal bike . I either up my cadence or change up on the e bike
Then there’s other parts of those rides where I used to find myself clicking up and down 2 gears at once between each tight corner and wasting pedaling momentum .
However if I just shift from eco up to trail mode then I can pull the higher gear ,that’s the choice the ebike has given me , and why it doesn’t need all the gears , but it’s not always a race so it doesn’t matter .
The app allows you to tailor the power input suit your needs so unless you are trying to stay in eco to conserve battery or keep with normal bikes it’s not really an issue .
As with normal bikes ebikes seem to be the same , the higher spec you choose the less gears you get , I think manufacturers presume only the fitter riders will use the higher end bikes To them less is more I didn’t specifically choose ex1 it came on the bike I chose , when it wears I have a choice to buy it again or change but if anyone thinks the cassette is anything like an old 8 speed they need to take a second look , as for the price , yes it’s crazy but it wasn’t reflected in the price of the commencal

 

[Japuserid]

Sounds very good but i am not familliar with the bosch motor but the brose likes the cadence fairly high and consistent, but i was only guessing as i have not tried the ex1. Glad it works for you though.
I think I can put together an 8 speed cassette with more or less the same ratios as the ex1 so i might give it a try

CCR, Sincerely I wish you luck with that project and look forward to hearing the results.

The price of EX1 is, as all new tech tends to be, too high but if you shop around it's not as bad as some would have you believe, Bike Inn were offering some pretty good prices and I got a second Cassette for £260.00 and a spare rear mech was about £95.00. EX1 chains are a real bargain from Winstanleys at the moment for £17.00 and you can get a new shifter from Ebay for £38.00.

But as time passes you can be sure we will see prices fall to sensible levels as non genuine options become available.

I managed to get 2500 miles out of an 11-42 XT cassette and they are not made from tool steel like the EX1 is so hopefully, I can get at least the same sort of mileage out of EX1 and then I don't think it would represent bad value for money at all.

 

[ccrdave]

Yep i agree with that and your right prices will come down, my concern was compatibility, having had two levos i sort of understand their foibles . And i deffo wont be able to cobble together a cassette that will shift anything like the ex1 but my intention it to try and test the ratios, not the shifting ability.
You never know after my test i might be stumping up the cash for an ex1.........lets see

 

[ccrdave]

That’s currently my dilemma , there’s a few of the regular climes I do I am in eco and riding with normal bikes , Iam feeling a could pull a gear between what I have , but I even used to find that on 1x11 with a wide spread on a normal bike . I either up my cadence or change up on the e bike
Then there’s other parts of those rides where I used to find myself clicking up and down 2 gears at once between each tight corner and wasting pedaling momentum .
However if I just shift from eco up to trail mode then I can pull the higher gear ,that’s the choice the ebike has given me , and why it doesn’t need all the gears , but it’s not always a race so it doesn’t matter .
The app allows you to tailor the power input suit your needs so unless you are trying to stay in eco to conserve battery or keep with normal bikes it’s not really an issue .
As with normal bikes ebikes seem to be the same , the higher spec you choose the less gears you get , I think manufacturers presume only the fitter riders will use the higher end bikes To them less is more I didn’t specifically choose ex1 it came on the bike I chose , when it wears I have a choice to buy it again or change but if anyone thinks the cassette is anything like an old 8 speed they need to take a second look , as for the price , yes it’s crazy but it wasn’t reflected in the price of the commencal

Thats an interesting concept but are you not just using the modes to fill in the gaps between the gears?

 

[Japuserid]

The initial replies to this:
Ebikers – how many chains to a cassette? – Singletrack Magazine
Seem to back up my thoughts fairly well.

Out of interest? What is it about an E bike that makes YOU think they would wear sprockets and chains at 3x the rate of a non e-bike?

I'm more than happy to come back to our little discussion with my findings when I do wear out my first E-bike drivetrain but having over 10 bikes regularly in use it could be quite some time until that happens.

Actual experience, gained from ownership and use Gary. Not supposition and guesswork, I know this to be true because I've experienced it.
The guy's I ride with have also experienced very similar results.

So Gary, that is how I know, YOU are never going to get 1800 out of an Ebike chain, unless your preferred method of maintenance is based on crisis management and the premature destruction of your chain ring and cassette.

 

[Gary]

I know, YOU are never going to get 1800 out of an Ebike chain

We'll see.

 

[Kernow]

@Japuserid
Sorry. Maybe the gif above was a bit too subtle.
What I meant by it was. How about answering my question based on mechanical sensibility rather than your own anecdotal evidence? You don't really know how, where and in what conditions I ride (just as I don't for you) so you can't possibly put an accurate number on the mileage I'm likely to get from my drivetrain (and I wouldn't even try to guess yours). I'm not sure you've ever even worn out an entire drivetrain from new to unusable on the one chain. By using dramatic language like "premature destruction" and "crisis management" I'd be surprised if you have. I'd honestly like to hear your reasoning as to why the introduction of a pedal assist motor would accelerate wear at a rate of 3x that of normal usage.

Do you not get that doubling the power input through the drivetrain and increasing the wieght of the whole bike with heavier wheels and tyres is going to increase wear .
So if you doubled the power of your cars engine and fitted fat tyres then drove it twice as fast up hills would you expect it to wear the drivetrain faster ?
Surely this is basic engineering common sense or mechanical sensibility as you put it ?
We do know where and how you claim to ride, many of your posts tell us how serious a mountain biker you are , who rides some of toughest places in the uk and Scotland , with way above average abilities and years of experience so you surely know how fast a normal mtb drivetrain wears in British conditions .
Why do you feel the need to argue and put everyone else down as if they know nothing compared to you , some of your input here is very helpful , but much of it is ott , if you can’t discuss and reason like the rest of us then a great forum like this just becomes a place people stop getting involved with .

 

[Kernow]

Well it’s not peak power that matters , maybe you and Froome’s gang can put out over a 1000 w for a few seconds but come on be reasonable , it’s what you can sustain constantly for an hour or so. Then there’s the comparison of the sustained torque the motor puts out compared to your legs , high torque also increases stress and wear .
and yes the stronger heavier fitter or faster rider is Going to wear out stuff faster , that’s a fact I see proven on two heavily used enduro bikes I help maintain both ridden by young fit fast riders, not to mention the wear on brakes .
I agree mechanical sympathy when changing gear etc does matter as does regular maintenance and some are harsher than others in both departments .
When you get your ebike ride it for a while then tell us how much faster you can climb , even eco settings will double your speed climbing however slow or fast you are now , and the fittest riders on normal bikes will struggle to maintain your speed climbing when your just in the the lowest power settings you have . Turning up to just medium power will leave them way behind
I actually believed that most Ebikers I came across ,when I was pedaling my normal bike were just selecting boost mode to prove a point or be cocky but I don’t think they were now that I have experienced being able to race a few of fastest climbers around here up Some of our hills on my ebike
Maybe you don’t use fat tyres , but you will use heavy duty tyres and probably larger than you would on a normal bike and you know how downhill or heavier duty tyres drag Iam sure ?
Much of our cycling knowledge is gained by experience and I for one try to learn from people’s experience , often that experience doesn’t sound right so I wait until I gain my own experience before branding them fools