Range Issues (in winter)

[Shy Ted]

I’m happy now I’ve got a workaround for the cold weather charging issues but my gripe now is the distance that I get out of the bike. It’s a Jam2 6.8 new in August 2019. Tyres pumped up to around 36psi and I weigh about 85 kg. 80% of my rides are off road, predominantly rocks and mud and normally between 1,500 - 2,000 ft of climbing. I don’t have the tec pack so it’s just the basic battery. The display goes into the red (the last blob of battery power) at 12 miles.......and I manage to get 15 miles. I know it’s cold but I charge the bike up at the end of the ride so the battery is still warm. I’ve tried charging the bike in a warm environment, even putting an oil filled radiator next to it; the distance achieved is still 15 miles. All this is riding in trail mode set at medium. Today I managed a 20 mile ride but this was a big downhill to start with then a canal towpath, then back up around 1,000 ft off road and 99% of it was in eco mode. Am I expecting too much or is this comparable to what others are getting?
If this is normal then I have to question the point of the bike, being in eco mode off road only makes up for the extra weight compared to my previous clockwork Whyte. be interesting to hear what others are getting in the cold weather.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Charging wise, be careful to not charge STRAIGHT after a ride, ie, when the battery might be still be hot from high output. The bike pilot had a problem with a battery after charging straight after a hard climb and my OH just wrecked two of my Makita batteries by sticking them on charge straight out of the leaf blower with no cool down time (and that charger blows air through the batteries).

Yes, they prefer to charge when it's not freezing, but they'll still charge ok when it's just cold.

You'll get poor battery performance when you're riding and the battery is cold. Obviously it warms up as you're using it.

The other big difference are the physical conditions. On my Kenevo (500wh) I'll normally get 30km's and 1000m climb in Turbo going full tilt for an hour. A couple of days ago I managed to flatten it in 18km's and less than 300m climb - again, going as hard as possible for an hour. The main difference was the extra mud and standing water. It just sucks up the power trying to get through it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

@steve_sordy Focus range ????

 

[stiv674]

In heavy, wet and colder conditions I usually get around 25 miles and 2500ft climbing from the bike battery, that's with approximately 70% eco (mid) 25% trail (mid) and 5% boost (high)

 

[Pabs]

I can kill my 540wh battery in around 20 miles sliding and slipping around in mud. It does take it out of it quicker for sure.

 

[steve_sordy]

What were the ranges offered when the bike was fully charged and brand new?
Mine was 44 miles in Eco, 33 in Trail and 22 in Boost.
That was before I had ridden it.

I have had the bike since Jan'19 and the Eco range has varied between 37 and 44, with the other two in proportion. I seldom get 44 offered anymore, 42 is the best I've had recently.

I learned on this Forum that the battery "learns" what you typically get from a battery and alters the suggested range available in light of how you have been riding. I have noticed that when I am leading a guided ride and am thrashing the bike in order not to slow people down, the range goes down. Then the next time I charge up, the suggested range is also down.

The majority of the mileage that I have done is at Sherwood Pines, off-piste. The whole trail can probably be sandwiched between two planes 250 feet apart! But despite that there is very little that is actually flat, so I always seem to be pedalling. Someone that rode with me said that he did 1250 feet of climbing, so lots of ups and downs! I use Eco half the time and Trail the other half(ish) with Boost very occasionally and "off" now and then. I get 22-24 miles and I finish with 10-12 miles in Eco on the screen. But I would only expect to get 5-6 miles out of that. So I'm guessing that I'd get about 28 miles out of a full battery. Which is nearly double what you get.

I have two Maxxis HRII 29x2.6" tyres, both Maxx Terra and triple compound. I weigh 14.5 stone (92kg) in my riding gear and I run with 17psi front and 20psi rear. So I'm heavier than you and with much lower pressure tyres. I also probably have a stickier rear tyre, because you likely have a single compound Maxxis Rekon on the back. So with all those things in your favour, why do I get better range?

Note the amount of climbing that you do, which is approx twice as much as me (typically). But it also depends upon how you climb.

I did a 14 mile trail in the Welsh mountain in October (Nant Yr Arian, near Aberystwyth). I was with my 12-year old grandson on his 26er HT. Because it is so steep, with an especially lonnnnnnng climb near the end that I took my TEC pack (it doubles the range). I thought I might have to tow him up there as he has Diabetes type 1. But I never used it, and ended up with 3 bars still on the display for the frame battery. I was astonished at what the battery achieved, but once I thought about it it was easy to explain. Because my grandson was on a clockwork bike, he was slow on the climbs, so I was climbing very slowly therefore hardly using any power. Once on the descents I wasn't using any power at all even though I had to go some in order to keep up with him!

On another outing I went to Woburn Sands, off-piste with some guys from this Forum. I did 14 miles and almost ran out of battery! But I was trying to keep up with guys that had batteries that were almost twice as big as mine, guys that were lighter, much younger than me (I was the oldest by 20 years), and much fitter too. They were probably climbing in Trail at the most, the youngest ones probably in Eco. But in order to keep up with them on the steep climbs I had to use Boost. Which is fatal for battery power.

What I learned from these is that one of the biggest consumers of power is going fast uphill. The faster you go and the longer and steeper the hill, the more battery power that you use up. It sure is seductive to power up hills and to attack the uphill corners! But you must remain aware of what it does to your battery. Anybody's battery not just yours.

I guess the thing to do is to ride alongside somebody else that claims to get good range and then compare the differences and the results.

 

[Shy Ted]

Thanks for the replies, guys; I know there are many and varied factors that come into play and having an impact on range. My range has always shown 22/33/44 at the start, it never wavers I’ve got the stock tyres on, they’re not very grippy at all and as I say my pressures are ca 36psi so won’t offer too much drag. I’m going to assume that from the replies I ought to be getting around 20 miles. I rode alongside my friend today on her trek, she left me behind on the gradients because she was always in the trek equivalent of our Focus Trail mode set to high. Her battery wasn’t even half empty! Rutland have been responsive to all my correspondence but I’ll ask a local dealer to test the battery and take it from there.

 

[steve_sordy]

@Shy Ted
Do your wheels spin for ever when given a good push?
On a smooth and level tarmac road, how fast can you go with the power off?

Answers to the above will help to determine whether something about the bike is holding you back.

Of course, it could be you that's the problem!
If you are unfit you will be drawing more power from the battery than others might do on the same bike / same trails.

PS: High pressures in bike tyres are not necessarily what you need on an mtb. Yes, high pressures reduce rolling resistance on a smooth surface. But they slow you down on a rough one. Think skateboard on smooth concrete vs a gravel path.
Read this and watch the video; life changing!
Tech Tuesday - Find Your Tire Pressure Sweet Spot - Pinkbike

 

[Shy Ted]

Local Focus dealer is very happy to look at my problem and handle any warranty issue for me. Booked it in next Monday.......hopefully it’ll have enough range in it to get me over Ilkley Moor!
I know I may have had a dig or two at Rutland recently but I have to say now that Rutland are pulling out the stops to help, even contacted my local dealer to discuss warranty handling etc. Impressive.

 

[steve_sordy]

Rutland Cycling has been good for at least the last 3-4 years and maybe longer. They weren't too good 10-11 years ago, but that may have been a blip. Right now I can recommend them 100%.

 

[Shy Ted]

Do your wheels spin for ever when given a good push?
On a smooth and level tarmac road, how fast can you go with the power off?

Answers to the above will help to determine whether something about the bike is holding you back.

Of course, it could be you that's the problem!
If you are unfit you will be drawing more power from the battery than others might do on the same bike / same trails.

PS: High pressures in bike tyres are not necessarily what you need on an mtb. Yes, high pressures reduce rolling resistance on a smooth surface. But they slow you down on a rough one. Think skateboard on smooth concrete vs a grave path.
Read this and watch the video; life changing!
Tech Tuesday - Find Your Tire Pressure Sweet Spot - Pinkbike

Heehee there’s no doubt I’m not as fit as I once was, being the wrong side of 65 but who’s counting; it’s true I no longer ride hundreds of miles a week and I’d much rather sit and watch the rain with a cup of tea and piece of cake than be getting cold and wet but I could still ride a clockwork bike for thirty or forty miles.......all the routes I ride off road are routes I’ve been doing for 25 years or so on a clockwork full susser ?
I too wondered about other factors, checked the wheels spinning and no brake binding. Not sure how far I could ride without assistance just assumed it’s going to be tough with a 50+lb bike anyway. I’m not tempted to lower the tyre pressures as I’ve already had one puncture (nail) and I still use inner tubes (Pondering on whether to go tubeless). I’ve just added an update regarding local Focus dealer so that’ll be my next step. Appreciate your input and thanks for all the ideas.

 

[steve_sordy]

.......... I’m not tempted to lower the tyre pressures as I’ve already had one puncture (nail) and I still use inner tubes (Pondering on whether to go tubeless). ..........

Ponder no more, just do it!
But make sure that you add sealant, even if you are using proper UST tyres.
I went from a flat every 14 miles, to no flats for years and years.
The only two flats I've had in the last five years were both tyre faults, both replaced under warranty without any hassle.
Going tubeless is easier than a beginner makes it look, but harder than an expert makes it look. The thing is that you will very soon be an expert! There are loads of helpful videos around, plus loads of experts on here of course!

 

[kafkastan]

I know it’s cold but I charge the bike up at the end of the ride so the battery is still warm. I’ve tried charging the bike in a warm environment, even putting an oil filled radiator next to it;

I'm no expert, but this very much goes against my understanding of how to treat Li-ion batteries. The general recommendation is to rest them after use and only recharge once they're cool. They're apparently happiest at room temperature and, as Zimmerframe says, cold is more of an issue for performance while discharging.

As for charging it beside a radiator, it's possible that caused (further?) damage to the battery, especially if you were charging it to 100%. I'm not trying to encourage dishonesty, but I believe that if you reveal that you've been charging it fully beside a radiator, then a warranty claim could well be rejected for neglectful use.

 

[stiv674]

It can also depend on your cadence, a slower cadence will likely be making the motor work harder.

 

[steve_sordy]

It can also depend on your cadence, a slower cadence will likely be making the motor work harder.

Slower cadences make me work harder, so it must be true for the battery!!

 

[stiv674]

Just for reference, I got 17 miles out of the TEC battery today on a very windy and very wet underfoot ride, mostly in trail.

 

[Shy Ted]

Just for reference, I got 17 miles out of the TEC battery today on a very windy and very wet underfoot ride, mostly in trail.[/QUOTE
Doesn’t sound like a great return on your investment there Stiv, but shows that you need the TEC pack to get a decent length of ride and make sure you can get back home from it. Any more info on the terrain covered and height gain etc?

 

[Winryn]

I assume he’s referring to just the tec pack. I’ve been doing easy 17 miles off the internal battery on mine with lots of climbing, mud and 70/30 use of trail and boost mode.

 

[stiv674]

About a third of those miles were into a strong headwind, so wet in places we were struggling with grip on flat ground, good fun though Oh and probably around 2500ft of ascent.

That was just the TEC battery, did another 12 miles on about 40% of the internal battery but a lot less climbing.

 

[Jollyjoiner]

I'm also thinking of getting my battery tested to see if it's holding a full charge as just lately I've only been getting a couple of miles on eco out of the first bar on the internal battery and this is on tarmac riding to my local trails, it used to be around 5 or 6 miles on the same route.