Query ref wheelsize

[shawry]

Hi,

So ive seen chat in several threads about getting the LBS to set the wheelsize to 2000 which would up the limit a couple of km/hr.

The place I was contemplating getting my bike from didnt have a clue what i was talking about.

Is this common? Should i just forget about trying to get that done, as it seemed like a bit of a no brainer to get it done.

 

[Mcharza]

I asked a LBS if they could switch to a US version of the software, refused, so I did it my self. Just buy BLEvo software

 

[shawry]

I asked a LBS if they could switch to a US version of the software, refused, so I did it my self. Just buy BLEvo software

You cant change wheelsize with blevo anymore apparently.

 

[Maastricht]

I asked a LBS if they could switch to a US version of the software, refused, so I did it my self. Just buy BLEvo software

How did you do this? According to what I know (at l least for Levo 2019 with firmware 2.025 and later) only the LBS can make these changes via the Specialized dealer software portal which requires a dealer login.

 

[Maastricht]

You cant change wheelsize with blevo anymore apparently.

Correct for Levo 2019 with firmware 2.025 and later. You can ask dealer to set wheel circumference at 2000. It will give you only a few extra km/h extra but ride feeling is big difference. It will not void warranty.

Other option is buying the Levociraptor, LSS or Planet3. In case you want to go down that route I would recommend the Levociraptor as this is an electronic hack and will not have the disadvantage of wear and tear on plastic parts like the mechanical alternatives as the LSS and Planet3.

 

[shawry]

You cant change wheelsize with blevo anymore apparently.

Correct for Levo 2019 with firmware 2.025 and later. You can ask dealer to set wheel circumference at 2000. It will give you only a few extra km/h extra but ride feeling is big difference. It will not void warranty.

Other option is buying the Velociraptor, LSS or Planet3. In case you want to go down that route I would recommend the Velociraptor as this is an electronic hack and will not have the disadvantage of wear and tear on plastic parts like the mechanical alternatives as the LSS and Planet3.

I only wanted the small increase that the change in wheel size would give, but the shop i was looking to get the bike from didnt seem to have a clue about it.

If anyone knows somewhere local to Darlington i could get this done would be awesome

Just tryibg to get all my ducks in a row before buying the bike.

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

will not have the disadvantage of wear and tear on plastic parts like the mechanical alternatives as the LSS and Planet3.

I'd kindly ask not to put the two in the same category when it comes to wear & tear. The problems recently experienced with wear of the LSS planet are specific to the LSS. PLANET3 has been tested to 10 000+ km for wear and tear and doesn't suffer from it as long as it's properly installed. It also comes with a one year / 10 000 km warranty that covers any potential defects, so even if something happened - you'll get replacements parts for free and it won't cost you a cent.

 

[Maastricht]

I'd kindly ask not to put the two in the same category when it comes to wear & tear. The problems recently experienced with wear of the LSS planet are specific to the LSS. PLANET3 has been tested to 10 000+ km for wear and tear and doesn't suffer from it as long as it's properly installed. It also comes with a one year / 10 000 km warranty that covers any potential defects, so even if something happened - you'll get replacements parts for free and it won't cost you a cent.

Hi,

From my perspective every mechnical motion will have wear and tear in the end no matter what it is a chain, a cassette, a jockey wheel, a motor, a bearing, an axle, LSS or Planet3, etc. Although I understand you offer warranty which is a good thing I still believe with an electronic hack like the Levociraptor a user will have less risks. Next to that it's mounted completely stealth and you can adjust the speed limit where the LSS and PLANET3 have a fixed ratio.

Don't want to be to harsh but can you name a few advantages of the PLANET3 compared to the Levociraptor? I really don't see any at least speaking for the 2019 and 2020 Levo.

By the way, really honnestly, I never bought or used the LSS, PLANET3 or Levociraptor. I just ride with the wheel setting of 2000 /28,8km/h which is (just) enough for me and will not void Specialized's warranty but even better would have been 32km/h but unfortunately (at least for emtb max. speed limit legislation) I live in Europe.

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

From my perspective every mechnical motion will have wear and tear in the end no matter what it is a chain, a cassette, a jockey wheel, a motor, a bearing, an axle, LSS or Planet3, etc. Although I understand you offer warranty which is a good thing I still believe with an electronic hack like the Levociraptor a user will have less risks. Next to that it's mounted completely stealth and you can adjust the speed limit where the LSS and PLANET3 have a fixed ratio.

Yes, things in frictional contact wear - up to a point where other effects come into play, such as hardening and glassing over of the surface. Some of my devices stop wearing after the initial 0.04 mm and then continue to work what for now seems indefinitely.

I still believe with an electronic hack like the Levociraptor a user will have less risks.

We are all entitled to our beliefs even when they're completely wrong. Any electronics hack that does things outside of basic firmware capabilities leaves a trace. Anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell something to you. Don't get me wrong, Specialized/Brose might not go digging deep enough because they don't care - but it is in no way less risky for the user when it comes to warranty and it looks like when you buy a Specialized you really are counting on the warranty. Also, before someone points out "PLANET3 counts 3x less distance and that can also be visible on the diagnostics!" - yes, but falls into the category of he-said-she-said and can be explained away through any number of plausible use scenarios, while a signature in the firmware is a signature in the firmware.

Don't want to be to harsh but can you name a few advantages of the PLANET3 compared to the Levociraptor? I really don't see any at least speaking for the 2019 and 2020 Levo.

I'd point you to the above argument and I'd add it's firmware independent or "future proof". I also agree with you that Levocirapor is ultimately as stealthy as one can get. But if we're to go down this path - this is only worth anything if you're going to race your e-bike and actually cheat (compete in a restricted class). As far as legality of road use goes, both are illegal and even though PLANET3 can be clearly seen from the outside - I believe the police have to have a method of testing which requires actual proof of your e-bike being ridden with assistance above the limit. Which, if you're not going to hand them the bike - they can't prove anyway; and if you will hand them the bike then they'll probably read up online on which button combinations to press to enable/disable all different sorts of electronic hacks. At least this is what I'd do if I was tasked with policing this matter. And then you're in the same boat and still paying the fine, regardless of the stealthiness of the method.

I never bought or used the LSS, PLANET3 or Levociraptor.

Not to be a dickhead, but why are you then so invested in arguing their strengths and weaknesses? Personally, I steer clear of subjects I know little about and haven't been involved with on a personal level and in-depth. I say this because your above post wasn't aimed at "Hi, could the people who make these devices go through the pros and cons so we are all a bit more enlightened?" - it was a direct recommendation of one above the others with just one assumption that turned out to be wrong, while completely disregarding all other aspects of the argument. Also, let's not kid ourselves - 29 km/h is still nothing, it's a speed limit you run into everywhere and it'd make me cry just as often as the 25 km/h one. I also live in Europe.

 

[Maastricht]

Yes, things in frictional contact wear - up to a point where other effects come into play, such as hardening and glassing over of the surface. Some of my devices stop wearing after the initial 0.04 mm and then continue to work what for now seems indefinitely.



We are all entitled to our beliefs even when they're completely wrong. Any electronics hack that does things outside of basic firmware capabilities leaves a trace. Anyone who tells you differently is trying to sell something to you. Don't get me wrong, Specialized/Brose might not go digging deep enough because they don't care - but it is in no way less risky for the user when it comes to warranty and it looks like when you buy a Specialized you really are counting on the warranty. Also, before someone points out "PLANET3 counts 3x less distance and that can also be visible on the diagnostics!" - yes, but falls into the category of he-said-she-said and can be explained away through any number of plausible use scenarios, while a signature in the firmware is a signature in the firmware.



I'd point you to the above argument and I'd add it's firmware independent or "future proof". I also agree with you that Levocirapor is ultimately as stealthy as one can get. But if we're to go down this path - this is only worth anything if you're going to race your e-bike and actually cheat (compete in a restricted class). As far as legality of road use goes, both are illegal and even though PLANET3 can be clearly seen from the outside - I believe the police have to have a method of testing which requires actual proof of your e-bike being ridden with assistance above the limit. Which, if you're not going to hand them the bike - they can't prove anyway; and if you will hand them the bike then they'll probably read up online on which button combinations to press to enable/disable all different sorts of electronic hacks. At least this is what I'd do if I was tasked with policing this matter. And then you're in the same boat and still paying the fine, regardless of the stealthiness of the method.



Not to be a dickhead, but why are you then so invested in arguing their strengths and weaknesses? Personally, I steer clear of subjects I know little about and haven't been involved with on a personal level and in-depth. I say this because your above post wasn't aimed at "Hi, could the people who make these devices go through the pros and cons so we are all a bit more enlightened?" - it was a direct recommendation of one above the others with just one assumption that turned out to be wrong, while completely disregarding all other aspects of the argument. Also, let's not kid ourselves - 29 km/h is still nothing, it's a speed limit you run into everywhere and it'd make me cry just as often as the 25 km/h one. I also live in Europe.

Hi,

When JD_3d released his idea on this forum in December 2018 (where I guess your concept is based on as well but please correct me if I am wrong) it was the first mechanical speed sensor hack solution for manipulating the speed limit of a 2019 Levo. Just to be very clear I have a huge respect for JD_3d's engineering skills! He must be a very clever engineer. (and I really don't mean this in a negative way to you who is offering an alternative today)

At that time there were only other solutions like a BadAss box available which were all based on an electronic manipulating of the speed sensor. So at that time the LSS concept was completely new but it was sometimes also complex to develop and fit the design to different brake discs and axle diameters. So to cover that need JD developed a lot of specific parts.

The fact that I don't own a mechnical or electronic speed hack solution on my Levo does not mean I have never ridden with a derestricted Levo. So I know the difference but am still satisfied with the 2000 setting which offers me just about 4 km/h extra which makes already a huge difference in ride feeling and of which I am 100% sure I will never end up in warranty discussions.

If you check the link in this forum post:
2019 Levo Speed Unlock Levociraptor - EMTB Forums
you will find a table of the Levociraptor settings:

In my believe the Levociraptor changes the wheel circumference inside the motor and therefore it differs from all other devices which manipulate the speed sensor magnet pulses. So I really can not believe when using the Levociraptor on selection 0,1 or 2 it would void anyones warranty. From my perspective only settings 3 until 6 could void your warranty.

Regarding the warranty topic of the LSS or Planet3, yes I wanted to comment exactly what you already mentioned ""PLANET3 counts 3x less distance and that can also be visible on the diagnostics!". I think no user will have any guarantee that warranty will covered after he has been using a Badass box, LSS, Planet3 or Levociraptor (with setting 3 or higher).

But I do see one benefit of the LSS or Planet3 concept and that's that it can also be used on other bike brands different from the Levo or Kenevo which are maybe more protected to software changes.

Last but not least, I have the feeling we both have strong opinions where I really respect yours but I hope you respect mine too. Let's keep it a positive discussion.

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

When JD_3d released his idea on this forum in December 2018 (where I guess your concept is based on as well but please correct me if I am wrong) it was the first mechanical speed sensor hack solution for manipulating the speed limit of a 2019 Levo.

You are wrong, but this doesn't matter as there's no way for me to prove I came up with my concept completely independently. However, this is a moot point since it differed significantly enough for it to be patentable even though LSS was already made public previously.

Just to be very clear I have a huge respect for JD_3d's engineering skills! He must be a very clever engineer. (and I really don't mean this in a negative way to you who is offering an alternative today)

Again, this doesn't have anything to do with our argument, but just as the first point, it seemed very important for you to share. So, I'll just say the following - you are, as always, allowed to have your heroes and people who you look up to and respect. However, when one does not know any better, it's easy for someone to look rather clever in their eyes. EMTB forum members will readily stand in defense of LSS and JD because he's your guy, he's the community guy who included you all in the process and you feel a sense of loyalty which would be admirable if it wasn't so misplaced.

So at that time the LSS concept was completely new but it was sometimes also complex to develop and fit the design to different brake discs and axle diameters. So to cover that need JD developed a lot of specific parts.

Again, this is only because you don't know better and there's a hierarchy of engineers just as there's a hierarchy of everything else.

The fact that I don't own a mechnical or electronic speed hack solution on my Levo does not mean I have never ridden with a derestricted Levo. So I know the difference but am still satisfied with the 2000 setting which offers me just about 4 km/h extra which makes already a huge difference in ride feeling and of which I am 100% sure I will never end up in warranty discussions.

All good, except I'll point you to your initial post where you recommended something based on limited information and experience.

If you .. <snip snip> .. From my perspective only settings 3 until 6 could void your warranty.

Any change written to the firmware through anything other than official dealer devices is detectable. I'm perfectly aware that some bikes come from the factory or dealer with 2000 mm already preset and if they're willing to do this for you - good for you and them. If you do it yourself, other story. Again, doesn't have to mean anything and I'd agree that no one is going to give you trouble for anything > 2000 mm no matter how it was done.

I think no user will have any guarantee that warranty will covered after he has been using a Badass box, LSS, Planet3 or Levociraptor (with setting 3 or higher).

Again, your opinion, only practice will show. For now, it doesn't seem to matter as everyone is having their motors warrantied without problems. However, it is my opinion that a Levociraptor @ 6 = warranty automatically void (if the manufacturer feels like it), while PLANET3 = they won't get into the discussion as they know they can't prove your use case.

But I do see one benefit of the LSS or Planet3 concept and that's that it can also be used on other bike brands different from the Levo or Kenevo which are maybe more protected to software changes.

Agreed completely. This is why I'm not all that worried. The market is large enough for everyone and different people will like different things. I'm sure there's going to be PLANET3 customers who end up on the Velociraptor, just as there are LSS customers who are PLANET3 converts.

Last but not least, I have the feeling we both have strong opinions where I really respect yours but I hope you respect mine too. Let's keep it a positive discussion.

I sincerely want the best for you, even though I don't even know you. So, let me say the following: stop respecting everyone's opinions and just ask more questions and form better opinions of your own. I also wasn't aware that the discussion was negative. "In order to be able to think you have to risk being offensive." If everyone just agreed on everything there'd be no original thinking to speak of. So, if you found some of my arguments offensive, just be aware that I found some of yours to be the same. Even though I'm not a very agreeable guy, in the end my goal isn't to beat you in an argument but to have you do a little bit more digging and form better opinions for yourself, especially if you're going to share them with other members publicly. Because not everyone is going to go do their own research, most people are happy just parroting what they read somewhere, especially if this was written in a decisive and confident way - as your initial post was.

 

[Maastricht]

You are wrong, but this doesn't matter as there's no way for me to prove I came up with my concept completely independently. However, this is a moot point since it differed significantly enough for it to be patentable even though LSS was already made public previously.



Again, this doesn't have anything to do with our argument, but just as the first point, it seemed very important for you to share. So, I'll just say the following - you are, as always, allowed to have your heroes and people who you look up to and respect. However, when one does not know any better, it's easy for someone to look rather clever in their eyes. EMTB forum members will readily stand in defense of LSS and JD because he's your guy, he's the community guy who included you all in the process and you feel a sense of loyalty which would be admirable if it wasn't so misplaced.



Again, this is only because you don't know better and there's a hierarchy of engineers just as there's a hierarchy of everything else.



All good, except I'll point you to your initial post where you recommended something based on limited information and experience.



Any change written to the firmware through anything other than official dealer devices is detectable. I'm perfectly aware that some bikes come from the factory or dealer with 2000 mm already preset and if they're willing to do this for you - good for you and them. If you do it yourself, other story. Again, doesn't have to mean anything and I'd agree that no one is going to give you trouble for anything > 2000 mm no matter how it was done.



Again, your opinion, only practice will show. For now, it doesn't seem to matter as everyone is having their motors warrantied without problems. However, it is my opinion that a Levociraptor @ 6 = warranty automatically void (if the manufacturer feels like it), while PLANET3 = they won't get into the discussion as they know they can't prove your use case.



Agreed completely. This is why I'm not all that worried. The market is large enough for everyone and different people will like different things. I'm sure there's going to be PLANET3 customers who end up on the Velociraptor, just as there are LSS customers who are PLANET3 converts.



I sincerely want the best for you, even though I don't even know you. So, let me say the following: stop respecting everyone's opinions and just ask more questions and form better opinions of your own. I also wasn't aware that the discussion was negative. "In order to be able to think you have to risk being offensive." If everyone just agreed on everything there'd be no original thinking to speak of. So, if you found some of my arguments offensive, just be aware that I found some of yours to be the same. Even though I'm not a very agreeable guy, in the end my goal isn't to beat you in an argument but to have you do a little bit more digging and form better opinions for yourself, especially if you're going to share them with other members publicly. Because not everyone is going to go do their own research, most people are happy just parroting what they read somewhere, especially if this was written in a decisive and confident way - as your initial post was.

Hi,

Just to be clear I don't have anything against you or your product and/or solution but I keep stick to my initial opinion due to the fact I expect mechanical wear and tear of plastic parts in time:
Query ref wheelsize - EMTB Forums
with an electronic solution you will never have that risk.

We can keep debating this topic but I would suggest to let the market decide.

At least it's good that there are now more speed hack alternatives for people who have a speed limit hack desire.

 

[bowser]

You only have to look at the pics to tell the P3 is a far superior product than the LSS. Guys only getting a couple of hundred km's before the gears wear that much they don't spin the magnet. Just looks like cheap junk compared to the P3. I'm yet to read anyone who has had the P3 gears wear out

 

[Alex @ PLANET3.bike]

I'm yet to read anyone who has had the P3 gears wear out

Well, for what the "public" knows - the first PLANET3 units went out at the beginning of July, so people haven't had a chance to rack up the miles yet. But privately, I've had the first unit ever produced in January still running on my bike. Combined riding and testing in walk mode is over 10 000 km. Bottom of the planet wore out after ~9300 km but it was initially 0,35 mm thick and I was using regular steel bolts. Now it's 0,50 mm thick and I'm delivering stainless steel bolts (non-magnetic) to people. We're talking Levo 2019 models of the PLANET3. Other models don't experience significant wear due to larger surface areas of the planet. Wear simply stops after the initial few hundredths of a mm. But, the point is I tested everything before selling a product to anyone. Which is how one should do things, in my opinion. However, LSS was always sold as an unfinished product with disclaimers that you are buying it as such and that you need to be able to do your own assembly and potential modifications. I don't think this should include wear of primary members, but this is a matter of debate.