Project to enable Bosch + Garmin integration

[Soarcer]

As the proud owner of a new Bosch-enabled ebike (Pivot Shuttle AM), I was disappointed to find it not being able to interop with Gamin devices. I've found lots of threads here and elsewhere on this topic, and agree with overall assessment that this is not likely to happen soon due to Bosch selling competitive display units. That said, after a brief investigation I've been able to monitor Bluetooth traffic between my phone and the bike and can already identify assist mode setting changes being broadcast so think I develop a more comprehensive solution here.

Ideally this would work natively from Garmin to Bike (like Specialized and many other manufacturers), but since the bike isn't broadcasting Ant+ it is less likely... possible solutions I've considered are
- Use a embedded microcontroller as a Bluetooth <> ANT+ bridge that supports the ANT LEV protocol for a just-works solution. Battery for this little guy would be something to manage, but the biggest issue would be pairing it with the bike since that seems to be a secure pairing with key exchanges etc. I don't know if that's possible to intercept & clone, am investigation
- A more likely solution would be to use a cheap spare Android phone, install the FLOW app to handle pairing (resolves / works around issue above) and then using a Garmin ConnectIQ companion app to rebroadcast relevant data over Bluetooth to a custom datafield on my Garmin device(s).

Here are the datafields I am hoping to implement (in priority order)
- Battery remaining
- Assist mode
- Power level (user - not sure if this is provided, but FLOW app shows something)
- Power level (motor - not sure if this is provided, but FLOW app shows something)
- Estimated range
- Cadence
- Speed (already have from Garmin GPS)

Any feedback & suggestions welcomed. Help likely also appreciated in getting reliable bluetooth data dumps with accommodating actual data (e.g. cadence, power levels, battery etc.)

 

[Jasong911]

As the proud and confused owner of a new Garmin 840, I applaud this effort as I quickly stopped mounting even my inexpensive IPhone 10 on my Shuttle AM’s bars. The flow app is just not good enough. Can’t provide anything other than moral support though.

 

[beutelfuchs]

That mess is the reason I'd not buy anything than Specialized with full Garmin support, as I want rider power to use for my training planning.

Ideally this would work natively from Garmin to Bike (like Specialized and many other manufacturers), but since the bike isn't broadcasting Ant+ it is less likely..

Garmins supports ANT+ and BLE.
Bosch has no BLE, just BT?
With BLE<>BLE you'd not need to care for pairing I think.

I would maybe look into trying to decode the signal on the cable connection between Bosch engine and display. With a bit of luck that's standard CAN. Reverse engineering CAN frames would be easy.
There are also contactless CAN clamps if you don't want to cut the wires.
Then maybe trying to find a linux compatible SoC with CAN and BLE/ANT support.
Then you'd need a bit of programming, housing and power supply...

 

[Shark58]

Bosch has no BLE, just BT?

Bosch uses BLE.

The problem is much more basic: Bosch simply doesn’t broadcast any relevant sensor data over BLE based on an industry standard format. They use a proprietary format which only their own displays can read and prefer cable connection over wireless.

 

[beutelfuchs]

The problem is much more basic: Bosch simply doesn’t broadcast any relevant sensor data over BLE based on an industry standard format. They use a proprietary format which only their own displays can read and prefer cable connection over wireless.

Yes, that's what the thread is about.

 

[Soarcer]

That mess is the reason I'd not buy anything than Specialized with full Garmin support, as I want rider power to use for my training planning.


Garmins supports ANT+ and BLE.
Bosch has no BLE, just BT?
With BLE<>BLE you'd not need to care for pairing I think.

I would maybe look into trying to decode the signal on the cable connection between Bosch engine and display. With a bit of luck that's standard CAN. Reverse engineering CAN frames would be easy.
There are also contactless CAN clamps if you don't want to cut the wires.
Then maybe trying to find a linux compatible SoC with CAN and BLE/ANT support.
Then you'd need a bit of programming, housing and power supply...

Great response, thanks!

Bosch has BLE, so that's not the issue - it's all about them not broadcasting data via Ant+ like Specialized and others so the Garmin devices (Edge and others) don't get all the nice e-bike metrics. Your proposed CAN solution would definitely give all the data, but I don't want to get into solutions that need additional hardware / wiring / power so it still seems like using a cheap Android device (old phone, something from Craigslist etc) would be the ideal proxy device to bridge from proprietary BLE to a custom Garmin datafield and/or widget. I can already get Assist Mode, and this week will dig into identifying the other datafields to use. If anyone is interested in being a future beta-tester, let me know.

 

[pinoymamba]

Kudos to you. I wish the best of luck.

I love the Bosch motor and before I pulled the trigger on my bike I was debating on getting the lesser Shimano motor just so I could use my Garmin

 

[maro200891]

Great project, I hope you can implement it well. I was very disappointed when I discovered that the Bosch integration with Garmin dont works. In my opinion it's unbelievable given the current state of technology. Therefore, I would be very happy if someone like you finds a solution to the problem.

 

[VWsurfbum]

Not sure how i could help, but happily be some sort of tester, as I cant believe it doesn't use Garmin.
Onething that I tried was using an old phone, but it needed to be a newer version of android, which I didn't have spare

 

[kasboh]

As the proud owner of a new Bosch-enabled ebike (Pivot Shuttle AM), I was disappointed to find it not being able to interop with Gamin devices. I've found lots of threads here and elsewhere on this topic, and agree with overall assessment that this is not likely to happen soon due to Bosch selling competitive display units. That said, after a brief investigation I've been able to monitor Bluetooth traffic between my phone and the bike and can already identify assist mode setting changes being broadcast so think I develop a more comprehensive solution here.

Ideally this would work natively from Garmin to Bike (like Specialized and many other manufacturers), but since the bike isn't broadcasting Ant+ it is less likely... possible solutions I've considered are
- Use a embedded microcontroller as a Bluetooth <> ANT+ bridge that supports the ANT LEV protocol for a just-works solution. Battery for this little guy would be something to manage, but the biggest issue would be pairing it with the bike since that seems to be a secure pairing with key exchanges etc. I don't know if that's possible to intercept & clone, am investigation
- A more likely solution would be to use a cheap spare Android phone, install the FLOW app to handle pairing (resolves / works around issue above) and then using a Garmin ConnectIQ companion app to rebroadcast relevant data over Bluetooth to a custom datafield on my Garmin device(s).

Here are the datafields I am hoping to implement (in priority order)
- Battery remaining
- Assist mode
- Power level (user - not sure if this is provided, but FLOW app shows something)
- Power level (motor - not sure if this is provided, but FLOW app shows something)
- Estimated range
- Cadence
- Speed (already have from Garmin GPS)

Any feedback & suggestions welcomed. Help likely also appreciated in getting reliable bluetooth data dumps with accommodating actual data (e.g. cadence, power levels, battery etc.)

Do you mind sharing details for your setup? And how to set up, though i will not be able to test it right away

 

[sandyman44]

did you ever get this working? I'd be keen to help test it.

 

[Karel]

Interested too!
I've a performance SX with connect module

 

[Soarcer]

It's on pause of a bit since I've just been out there riding, loving this bike soooo much! My latest feeling about it is how much more time I spend in Flow state - instead of ~30% of the time on downhill fun areas, now it is more like 75% of the time, down, flat and even up - it is just so much fun. Which also means I'm caring less about the data and more about just riding.

Perhaps when it gets colder, wetter and less fun to ride I will get back to this, and am sure you can all relate!

 

[Karel]

It's on pause of a bit since I've just been out there riding, loving this bike soooo much! My latest feeling about it is how much more time I spend in Flow state - instead of ~30% of the time on downhill fun areas, now it is more like 75% of the time, down, flat and even up - it is just so much fun. Which also means I'm caring less about the data and more about just riding.

Perhaps when it gets colder, wetter and less fun to ride I will get back to this, and am sure you can all relate!

I totally understand.

I was wondering, can you share a bit about how you did:

I can already get Assist Mode

Even if it is binary data, or... anything that could help me, I willing to review how hard it is to 'crack' these BLE message packages format. And your assist mode insides could give me a jump start!

Thanks,
K.

 

[VWsurfbum]

I had a good old moan at the bosch guys at Ard Rock at the weekend, they know but there's no "real" plans to open it up just yet?

 

[Soarcer]

I totally understand.

I was wondering, can you share a bit about how you did:


Even if it is binary data, or... anything that could help me, I willing to review how hard it is to 'crack' these BLE message packages format. And your assist mode insides could give me a jump start!

Thanks,
K.

Sure thing! Help would be great. A bit busy today but should be able tomorrow. Big me if I don’t!

 

[Cell4soul]

I am glad I read this thread. I am looking to get a full powered EMTB, I am currently on a Trek Fuel EXe. So, the Bosch motor doesn’t work with a Garmin bike computer? I can’t use my bike computer to determine exact battery percentage? Is the Bosch Kiox the only way to view your battery life as a percentage? If that is the case, Bosch is out for me. I was seriously considering a Shuttle AM.

 

[Soarcer]

I still think the Bosch motor is the most responsive and fun, and even if I don’t get all the data on my screen it’s only 1% of the riding time when looking at screen vs enjoying the trails.

Is it an annoyance- absolutely! (and I have all kinds of data logging gadgets for all sports). But even then I’d still buy this bike over any others (and I’ve tried them all). Ie. The cake is amazing, and if a few sprinkles are missing , in the end it really doesn’t matter that much (for me at least, your mileage might vary).

At the very least, go ride the few bikes at the top of your list and see which ride you enjoy the most…

 

[VWsurfbum]

I am glad I read this thread. I am looking to get a full powered EMTB, I am currently on a Trek Fuel EXe. So, the Bosch motor doesn’t work with a Garmin bike computer? I can’t use my bike computer to determine exact battery percentage? Is the Bosch Kiox the only way to view your battery life as a percentage? If that is the case, Bosch is out for me. I was seriously considering a Shuttle AM.

I think you can still use your phone (well you can on my Orbea) to get percentages.

 

[Cell4soul]

I like to use the Garmin for all my data while riding. Battery percentage, what gear I am in with my AXS, which assist mode, mileage, speed, etc. It blows me away that Bosch won’t integrate and neither will the Shimano DI2 XT Shifting. This technology has been around for a long time now. I guess it is Shimano motor and AXS shifting for me.

 

[Karel]

Sure thing! Help would be great. A bit busy today but should be able tomorrow. Big me if I don’t!

Great, so by this

 

[Karel]

I think you can still use your phone (well you can on my Orbea) to get percentages.

Yes, on the phone the bosch bike flow app on phone is really nice, but nowhere compared to a bike-computer.
- the heart rate is displayed, but not logged.
- cadence and power (your own) is displayed (and I believe it only logs the average)
- gps is from your phone, but so if for some reason you stop and don't turn it on, the tracking stops...
For me the phone bosch app is not appealing, so I understand @Cel4soul...
If only cadence and power would be communicated to garmin it would be great already... of course battery level, assist mode, motor-power, shifter position, ... is of course cool stuff to see as well.

 

[Prozor]

Yes, on the phone the bosch bike flow app on phone is really nice, but nowhere compared to a bike-computer.
- the heart rate is displayed, but not logged.
- cadence and power (your own) is displayed (and I believe it only logs the average)
- gps is from your phone, but so if for some reason you stop and don't turn it on, the tracking stops...
For me the phone bosch app is not appealing, so I understand @Cel4soul...
If only cadence and power would be communicated to garmin it would be great already... of course battery level, assist mode, motor-power, shifter position, ... is of course cool stuff to see as well.

Cadence and power is recorded - check Strava. Obviously heart rate is not recorded. At my case: GPS - I have to check if Flow is on, I have failed to check a few times and no recorded start of ride (although I generally record Edge or Fenix anyway). Once it's running, it doesn't turn off after stopping until you manually turn it off. If in your case it stops and does not start then maybe check if the system is not pausing the Flow application.

Report to Bosch the need to transmit data from the engine. Not necessarily the ability to control the engine from the Edge (this is unlikely to be possible without workarounds), but to transmit in the normal (not private) BT channel user power, cadence and speed. Currently I have to additionally use cadence and speed sensors - why duplicate? This can be rather certainly obtained. In addition, the transmission of engine data: engine power, assist level, battery level, etc.

 

[Karel]

Thanks Prozor, I agree that the recording of the cadence and power, thanks for the tip to look in Strava!

 

[DAL]

Cou;d we start a campaign to lobby Bosch? I know unlikely to be successful but may help? Ive got an Edge 1030 and Fenix 6 Watch, would be great to have integration with my pending Trrek Rail with Bosch CX

 

[Malcb]

... but I don't want to get into solutions that need additional hardware / wiring / power so it still seems like using a cheap Android device (old phone, something from Craigslist etc) would be the ideal proxy device to bridge from proprietary BLE to a custom Garmin datafield and/or widget. I can already get Assist Mode, and this week will dig into identifying the other datafields to use. If anyone is interested in being a future beta-tester, let me know.

I get that you want to do a software only type solution but if you could work with the Speedbox guys it would be great! They have all the fields on their phone app - just need to get that into the Garmin. I don't think they change modes from the app, can't see why they couldn't. CAN and some hardware is the way to go for full functionality, even if it was a pass though tap with no data manipulation.

 

[NorthernDust]

As the proud owner of a new Bosch-enabled ebike (Pivot Shuttle AM), I was disappointed to find it not being able to interop with Gamin devices. I've found lots of threads here and elsewhere on this topic, and agree with overall assessment that this is not likely to happen soon due to Bosch selling competitive display units. That said, after a brief investigation I've been able to monitor Bluetooth traffic between my phone and the bike and can already identify assist mode setting changes being broadcast so think I develop a more comprehensive solution here.

Ideally this would work natively from Garmin to Bike (like Specialized and many other manufacturers), but since the bike isn't broadcasting Ant+ it is less likely... possible solutions I've considered are
- Use a embedded microcontroller as a Bluetooth <> ANT+ bridge that supports the ANT LEV protocol for a just-works solution. Battery for this little guy would be something to manage, but the biggest issue would be pairing it with the bike since that seems to be a secure pairing with key exchanges etc. I don't know if that's possible to intercept & clone, am investigation
- A more likely solution would be to use a cheap spare Android phone, install the FLOW app to handle pairing (resolves / works around issue above) and then using a Garmin ConnectIQ companion app to rebroadcast relevant data over Bluetooth to a custom datafield on my Garmin device(s).

Here are the datafields I am hoping to implement (in priority order)
- Battery remaining
- Assist mode
- Power level (user - not sure if this is provided, but FLOW app shows something)
- Power level (motor - not sure if this is provided, but FLOW app shows something)
- Estimated range
- Cadence
- Speed (already have from Garmin GPS)

Any feedback & suggestions welcomed. Help likely also appreciated in getting reliable bluetooth data dumps with accommodating actual data (e.g. cadence, power levels, battery etc.)

You got a GitHub project?
Given the Garmin can't call the Bosch motor direct is the plan to have an app act like a bridge
Expose an endpoint for a Garmin app to call and use the Bosch SDK to interrogate the motor ?
Can the cobi bike app expose an API?

Apologies just wondering how you plan on hooking it all together

 

[nmvmira]

Hi

Maybe if we get enough people asking Bosch to change this, they might actually do it.

Here is a petition for it: Petition Bosch, Unlock Our Data!

 

[sandyman44]

by the way, not the answer to this exact question but I've found a workaround to get the data post-ride.
I have two bikes: 1x bosch EMTB gen4, 1x specialised SL

bosch e-bike , I record rides on ebike controller, bosch portal syncs them to strava. This includes power data because it came from the ebike. But hard to explore it in strava free. I upgraded my emtb to Nyon-2 , so that I can see power data on a big screen mid-ride.

specialised e-bike, I record and display them on a garmin (with power data) this is syncing to strava of course as well.

If I want to see a consistent view of power data I can either pay strava, OR (what I do) I can export the bosch bike ride's tcx from strava and import it to garmin connect portal. Then in garmin connect portal I can see all my rides , with power data for all of them, and garmins training advisor can give a consistent view on my training level etc.

 

[pinoymamba]

by the way, not the answer to this exact question but I've found a workaround to get the data post-ride.
I have two bikes: 1x bosch EMTB gen4, 1x specialised SL

bosch e-bike , I record rides on ebike controller, bosch portal syncs them to strava. This includes power data because it came from the ebike. But hard to explore it in strava free. I upgraded my emtb to Nyon-2 , so that I can see power data on a big screen mid-ride.

specialised e-bike, I record and display them on a garmin (with power data) this is syncing to strava of course as well.

If I want to see a consistent view of power data I can either pay strava, OR (what I do) I can export the bosch bike ride's tcx from strava and import it to garmin connect portal. Then in garmin connect portal I can see all my rides , with power data for all of them, and garmins training advisor can give a consistent view on my training level etc.

Last time I tried this the power/cadence didn’t import nicely into Garmin connect. I had to use another program to correct the file but that didn’t really work either.

I was hoping it would so I could keep track of my fitness since I wanted to start racing but life keeps interrupting my dreams of being a weekend racer LOL