Precede: On CF8 Bosch Speed motor

[bmx4343]

I currently own 3 e-bikes. A Trek Rail 9.7 with Bosch CX, a Canyon Grail:ON with Speed motor, and recently grabbed the new Precede:ON for cruising to Trader Joes. First let me say that I absolutely love the Canyon brand, and the quality of the products is top notch.

That said, super super disappointed in the performance of this new Precede. Its supposed to have the 85Nm motor but pulls nothing like either of my other bikes. Its heavier than the Grail (with Speed), but lighter than the Rail (with CX). I understand they are different bikes with different intent, but the performance is just awful.

I got into e-bikes last year after I broke my knee and am still unable to function as I did before the accident so I rely on e-bikes to assist me (obviously).

So I did non scientific test on a 3/4 mile hill next to my home. Its steep enough to cause pain without assist. When I climb this hill on either other bike, I average around 13-15mph in Tour mode. However, with the Precede, that speed drops to 10 or below (at the top of the hill). If I want similar performance, I have to move into Sport or Turbo mode which obv impacts the battery very quickly. Additionally, when I switch assist levels on either of the other bikes, I can feel a bump to the next power level. On the Precede, there is no bump, it kinda just fades into the next level.

I contacted Canyon within 2 weeks after purchase and they replaced the bike. However, the new bike is nearly identical in performance. The US office has no answer. I even contacted the German office and they did not have much to add either.

In EU, this bike is sold with the CX motor, but only avail with the Speed motor in US. It feels like to me that they had some extra motors and frames lying around and Frankensteined this version for the US market (the EU version has belt drive).

I love the bike and want to keep it but need better performance. I would even be willing to downgrade (purchase) to a CX motor, but Im told that this is virtually impossible to do as the motor is linked to the serial on the bike.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[Mikerb]

If it is the 5ON it has the Active Line motor...50nm
If it is the 6 or 7ON is has the Performance Line Motor................if it is Bosch Smart System it is 75nm/340 %support
if it is Gen2 it is 65nm/300% support
none of the models have the Performance Line CX which is what your Trek has with 85nm.

 

[bmx4343]

If it is the 5ON it has the Active Line motor...50nm
If it is the 6 or 7ON is has the Performance Line Motor................if it is Bosch Smart System it is 75nm/340 %support
if it is Gen2 it is 65nm/300% support
none of the models have the Performance Line CX which is what your Trek has with 85nm.

As stated in my post, it claims to have the Speed motor with 85nm and also stated that my Trek has the CX with 85nm. Per the original header, its a CF8 model.

 

[Mikerb]

Sorry, I was reading your post rather than the title and that infers your Grail has the Speed motor!!

I currently own 3 e-bikes. A Trek Rail 9.7 with Bosch CX, a Canyon Grail:ON with Speed motor, and recently grabbed the new Precede:ON for cruising to Trader Joes.

I can see no reference to the CF ON8 having the "speed" motor on their website. You would certainly know if it it did since it is not restrcited to 25 kph! It does say it has the Performance CX motor though and that is the 85nm motor.
My original reply assumed that your bike could well have one of the other motors I listed if indeed it feel less powerful.

 

[bmx4343]

Sorry, I was reading your post rather than the title and that infers your Grail has the Speed motor!!

I currently own 3 e-bikes. A Trek Rail 9.7 with Bosch CX, a Canyon Grail:ON with Speed motor, and recently grabbed the new Precede:ON for cruising to Trader Joes.

I can see no reference to the CF ON8 having the "speed" motor on their website. You would certainly know if it it did since it is not restrcited to 25 kph! It does say it has the Performance CX motor though and that is the 85nm motor.
My original reply assumed that your bike could well have one of the other motors I listed if indeed it feel less powerful.

This is the US model, NOT the EU model. EU model has CX motor and is limited to 25kph. This US version is spec'd to have Speed model with 28mph limit.

 

[paquo]

have you gone into the app and adjusted power settings ?

 

[bmx4343]

have you gone into the app and adjusted power settings ?

Its not the smart system, so not possible.

 

[MountainBoy]

I currently own 3 e-bikes. A Trek Rail 9.7 with Bosch CX, a Canyon Grail:ON with Speed motor, and recently grabbed the new Precede:ON for cruising to Trader Joes. First let me say that I absolutely love the Canyon brand, and the quality of the products is top notch.

That said, super super disappointed in the performance of this new Precede. Its supposed to have the 85Nm motor but pulls nothing like either of my other bikes. Its heavier than the Grail (with Speed), but lighter than the Rail (with CX). I understand they are different bikes with different intent, but the performance is just awful.

I got into e-bikes last year after I broke my knee and am still unable to function as I did before the accident so I rely on e-bikes to assist me (obviously).

So I did non scientific test on a 3/4 mile hill next to my home. Its steep enough to cause pain without assist. When I climb this hill on either other bike, I average around 13-15mph in Tour mode. However, with the Precede, that speed drops to 10 or below (at the top of the hill). If I want similar performance, I have to move into Sport or Turbo mode which obv impacts the battery very quickly. Additionally, when I switch assist levels on either of the other bikes, I can feel a bump to the next power level. On the Precede, there is no bump, it kinda just fades into the next level.

I contacted Canyon within 2 weeks after purchase and they replaced the bike. However, the new bike is nearly identical in performance. The US office has no answer. I even contacted the German office and they did not have much to add either.

In EU, this bike is sold with the CX motor, but only avail with the Speed motor in US. It feels like to me that they had some extra motors and frames lying around and Frankensteined this version for the US market (the EU version has belt drive).

I love the bike and want to keep it but need better performance. I would even be willing to downgrade (purchase) to a CX motor, but Im told that this is virtually impossible to do as the motor is linked to the serial on the bike.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

Bosch doesn't do a very transparent job of explaining the differences between their different lines of drive units and how they deliver power in different situations. Maybe that's because they will make custom tunes for each manufacturer depending upon the goals of each model?

I too have an eMTB with the Gen 4 CX Performance motor and it has more punch than my GrailON:8 with the Gen 4 Speed motor which surprised me because I just assumed the lighter gravel bike would feel punchier. It has more punch than I need or want to use but I thought when I put it in Turbo mode it would feel ridiculously fast because the CX Performance motor in my full-suspension eMTB certainly does. I feel the power delivery is tuned to what I want (and I love that it continues to lay out the power up to 28 mph) but it does seem less punchy than I expected. The battery also lasts longer than I expected.

I think what's going on here is Bosch has tuned the various motors for each application to tailor the speed of battery drain to the application and the power needed. But why they are both rated at the same torque but don't seem to deliver the same torque, I can only guess. I wonder if they both max at 85 Nm but the Cargo Line requires more organic pedaling to reach that peak?

 

[bmx4343]

Bosch doesn't do a very transparent job of explaining the differences between their different lines of drive units and how they deliver power in different situations.

I too have an eMTB with the Gen 4 CX Performance motor and it has more punch than my GrailON:8 with the Gen 4 Speed motor which surprised me because I just assumed the lighter gravel bike would feel punchier. It has more punch than I need or want to use but I thought when I put it in Turbo mode it would feel ridiculously fast because the CX Performance motor in my full-suspension eMTB certainly does. I feel the power delivery is tuned to what I want (and I love that it continues to lay out the power up to 28 mph) but it does seem less punchy than I expected. The battery also lasts longer than I expected.

I think what's going on here is Bosch has tuned the various motors for each application to tailor the speed of battery drain to the application and the power needed. But why they are both rated at the same torque but don't seem to deliver the same torque, I can only guess. I wonder if they both max at 85 Nm but the Cargo Line requires more organic pedaling to reach that peak?

all great points and I agree. Very frustrating how "hands off" Bosch is being with their products and info. The fact that Im not even able to downspec is just silly to me. That needs to change IMO.

That said, there really is a massive difference between my bikes and the crazy thing is that even with the sluggish pull, my battery still drains super quick in comparison to my Grail with the same setup. I realize the Grail is lighter, but something is just way off here.

 

[MountainBoy]

all great points and I agree. Very frustrating how "hands off" Bosch is being with their products and info. The fact that Im not even able to downspec is just silly to me. That needs to change IMO.

That said, there really is a massive difference between my bikes and the crazy thing is that even with the sluggish pull, my battery still drains super quick in comparison to my Grail with the same setup. I realize the Grail is lighter, but something is just way off here.

About the only thing I can add here is that I treat my E-bikes like manual bikes in that I'm always trying to maximize efficiency. This is in contrast to some people who I've seen say, "It's an e-bike, so I don't need to worry about low rolling resistance tires, well-lubed chain, tire pressure, etc. because the motor will take up the slack". In contrast, I care about efficiency because I care about range. It's funny how inefficiencies can multiply against one another.

It could also be the cargo line is very different hardware in that it's designed to power really heavy loads for what is not likely to be long distances. It may have heavier-duty gears, bearings and seals that drag more since it is more likely to be used in a more utilitarian manner, and maybe be parked out-of-doors in foul weather.

I do think Bosch needs to provide better info on the differences between their lines, but I would also emphasize that I would suspect a snowballing of inefficiencies caused by less aero, heavier weight, more friction, worse tires, etc, before I would suspect a defect. Can you swap batteries back and forth?

 

[bmx4343]

About the only thing I can add here is that I treat my E-bikes like manual bikes in that I'm always trying to maximize efficiency. This is in contrast to some people who I've seen say, "It's an e-bike, so I don't need to worry about low rolling resistance tires, well-lubed chain, tire pressure, etc. because the motor will take up the slack". In contrast, I care about efficiency because I care about range. It's funny how inefficiencies can multiply against one another.

It could also be the cargo line is very different hardware in that it's designed to power really heavy loads for what is not likely to be long distances. It may have heavier-duty gears, bearings and seals that drag more since it is more likely to be used in a more utilitarian manner, and maybe be parked out-of-doors in foul weather.

I do think Bosch needs to provide better info on the differences between their lines, but I would also emphasize that I would suspect a snowballing of inefficiencies caused by less aero, heavier weight, more friction, worse tires, etc, before I would suspect a defect. Can you swap batteries back and forth?

Yes I can swap out batteries, but I dont think its a battery issue and heres why: Canyon already replaced the bike once after I contacted them about the awful performance. And this one performs the same so I think the issue is programming, or a misspecced motor. When I opened the case with Canyon (US), the provided some insight. Although supposedly spec'd with a Speed motor, mine came with a CX motor cover. They told me that the first run of these bikes had CX motors that were reprogrammed to be speed motors. I obv did not know this is possible. One odd thing to me is that when I open the ebike connect app and view the motor spec, on my Trek it lists the motor as "Performance Line CX", but for the Precede it lists it as "Performance Line". Can anybody confirm if that should in fact say "Performance Line Speed"? or is that not a thing. My Grail has a Purion so Im not able to connect it to the app and see what it reads out as.

 

[MountainBoy]

Yes I can swap out batteries, but I dont think its a battery issue and heres why: Canyon already replaced the bike once after I contacted them about the awful performance. And this one performs the same so I think the issue is programming, or a misspecced motor. When I opened the case with Canyon (US), the provided some insight. Although supposedly spec'd with a Speed motor, mine came with a CX motor cover. They told me that the first run of these bikes had CX motors that were reprogrammed to be speed motors. I obv did not know this is possible. One odd thing to me is that when I open the ebike connect app and view the motor spec, on my Trek it lists the motor as "Performance Line CX", but for the Precede it lists it as "Performance Line". Can anybody confirm if that should in fact say "Performance Line Speed"? or is that not a thing. My Grail has a Purion so Im not able to connect it to the app and see what it reads out as.

I can't connect to either of my Bosch units either.

That's an interesting theory about a potential mis-programming error. Maybe drill down into Canyon some more and try to escalate it up the chain of their tech department. I would like to know what you find out.

 

[shamrock]

I have the Precede:ON 8 CF EU model, with Performance Line CX. And I could not ask for more ... at least this one provides more power than I would ever need. But I think they do deliver these with different software, since in my Bosch eBike Connect dashboard, after the motor it says "eMtb" on gray background. This leads me to believe that there are different options of this motor, at least.

You have the Speed version, and that made me think ... do they just let it rev higher, or does it have different internal gear ratio? That would be wise, but of course, you will lose the "punch".

Also, with the Performance Line CX I really don't notice much didderence in battery usage. My modes are eco, tour, eMtb and Turbo. I only use Turbo in strong headwind, it drains the battery slightly more. But with both tour and eMtb I can ride well over 100km. My daily commute to work is around 45km, and depending on the conditions, that takes 30-40% of the battery.

This just makes me think, is the Speed motor really just made for speed, using different ratios? And thus you loose the punch and responsiveness of Performance Line CX?

 

[shamrock]

Found this on another forum, confirms what I thought. Performance Line Speed is literally built for speed, CX has much more torque through the range.

"You asked....."Up to 20 mph, any real world difference in feel? " In my opinion absolutely. The Performance Line is no slouch, but the additional torque across the CX motors entire range is a joy. The motor so smooth. Bosch makes good 'stuff'...not cheap, but good and dependable. 4000 miles combined on both bikes and not a single problem.

The torque on the CX motor is quite wide, not limited to low speed. I love the motor and how it performs on the Powerfly. In fact Iike the CX motor so much, I'm seriously considering replacing the Performance Line motor on my XM700 with a CX motor, and the Performance Line motor is a great. Very powerful and silky smooth"