Orbea Rise vs Levo SL range

[RickBullotta]

I thought, "5.0 V10 TDi, this is going to go a bit". I could not believe how slow and clumsy they are.

The factory in Dresden is super cool though. Had a chance to visit a couple of times when I worked for SAP.

 

[Zimmerframe]

The factory in Dresden is super cool though. Had a chance to visit a couple of times when I worked for SAP.

Now we know why it was so heavy if they were using SAP !

 

[jka]

Can't beat petroleum for proper power.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Can't beat petroleum for proper power.

View attachment 50539

Yup ... they do a V12 6.0 version of the passat with a slightly faster 0-60 ..... and 75hp a litre I think .. whoop whoop .... or maybe not ...

 

[RickBullotta]

Can't beat petroleum for proper power.

View attachment 50539

Except that's probably running on alcohol or nitromethane. ;-)

 

[Zimmerframe]

Except that's probably running on alcohol or nitromethane. ;-)

It's more environmentally friendly ....

 

[cappuccino34]

Can't beat petroleum for proper power.

View attachment 50539

Except that's a mixture of methanol and nitromethane. ?

 

[cappuccino34]

Except that's probably running on alcohol or nitromethane. ;-)

Beat me to it

 

[jka]

I know, and it smells reeeeaallly good and sounds even better. Let's just say internal combustion instead of petroleum.

 

[jka]

Somehow this tread really got hijacked. How'd we go from tiny 60Nm of torque motors to 10,000 hp rubber and asphalt chewing beasts. Back to bikes.

 

[Pdoz]

Somehow this tread really got hijacked. How'd we go from tiny 60Nm of torque motors to 10,000 hp rubber and asphalt chewing beasts.

lots of revs?

 

[cappuccino34]

Anyway .. how in any universe can someone who races a cappuccino (which should probably be renamed using a play of words as Expresso....) also drive the vehicular equivalent of Jabba the Hutt ??? Or maybe even a death star, though I suspect a death star is easier to push up a hill, certainly a mk1 death star.

I'm in the car trade, of sorts, unfortunately I have to work on various unpleasant things.

Sometimes it has its bonuses though.

Anyway, back to bikes. Studded tyres fitted yesterday and it's snowing heavily now here. ?

 

[RickBullotta]

I know, and it smells reeeeaallly good and sounds even better. Let's just say internal combustion instead of petroleum.

...and the sound...something an EV will never be able to truly provide.

 

[cappuccino34]

...and the sound...something an EV will never be able to truly provide.

The Pikes Peak Suzuki EV had a speaker playing the noise of the previous year's petrol powered car. The V6 turbo car was something else for a production based engine.

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

Some of you may remember that we debated around 48V vs 36V in this thread some time ago. I then said that I sent an email to Mahle to shed some light over the issue if 48V systems really are noticably more efficient than 36V.

Got shoved around a bit, but finally got in touch with a representative from Specialized (Mahle directed me there). Got some answers, but that was mostly sales talk to be honest even if there was some interesting information in that answer too.

Thought I was going to ask this contact a few questions, I want numbers how much more efficient 48V systems are and why not all Specialized motors use 48V.

If you have any questions, put them here and I can include them in the email in a few days. We got to get to the bottom of this!!

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

To get the voltage higher you need to add more cells which adds more weight. All the cells are probably around 3v or something if i remember correctly like most lithium cells. So to get 36v you need 12 cells just to hit the voltage and then 12x??? cells to get the capacity.

there some efficiency gains but its highly unlikely that was the aim. Its probably more likely that someone who designed the 48v motor just found it easier to find 48v parts in china to build it from. Or maybe the thermal envelope was easier to hit at 48v who knows.

I think this stuff only matters when you are trying to send max current out of the cells and in to the motor and thats where high voltage systems are optimal but for an ebike with a nominal 250w sustained output its wont make a lot of difference.

I did look into this stuff years ago when messing with RC cars but the details have become foggy. It gets more complicated when looking at discharge rates etc but an ebike is limited by its 250w sustained power limit that it becomes less important unlike an RC car which can high 90mph in less time than a hypercar.

No, there is no need for more cells. They are just configured differently so the weight and watt hours stay the same.

At 250W (continous power) I don't think the thermal loss is very significant, but at peak power (around 700W in general) the system overheats and my guess is that 48V systems will cope a little bit better then.

Voltage drop is another issue too that higher voltage systems deal with a little better.

Side note: I am still waiting for answer from Specialized, I want to get some numbers...

 

[ThierryGTLTS]

SL batteries are 13S 2P, 13 Series of 2 Parallel cells, the extender is only 13S.

13S means Average Voltage of 48V, and Maximum Voltage of 54.6V.

Previous batteries (Levo) were 36V average Voltage (10S), 42V Maximum Voltage, but more cells in parallel.

The advantage of a 48V system is not that big, but it doesn't cost much to buid.

If you have more infos, please share them to us.

Thierry

 

[Sully151]

Great discussion. I own both bikes. In order to quantify a meaningful difference in efficiency the motor systems would have to be bench tested as I believe the difference is so small. The Rise has a 12.5% larger battery which trumps the difference in efficiency, thus the Rise will go further. With extenders the range difference will be even higher. I do believe however that there are more important things to take into consideration when choosing between the two bikes.

I would love to hear your thoughts on the Rise. I currently don’t have an E-bike and the Rise really interests me, probably more than the Levo SL.

 

[NOS_emtb’r]

Real world testing:
94kg rider
3 kg backpack
2 kg kit
99 kg Total
Small Rise M10, stock with race face alloy pedals
~18.7 kg
Turbo mode

 

[NOS_emtb’r]

Obviously a smaller rider would get more range. Had it in Turbo even though a lot of the trail didn’t need it. Will do a test in Eco mode to see what range looks like.

 

[Steve G H]

Surely you'd still carry the same kit though ? Or does full power mean Inc kit ?

 

[NOS_emtb’r]

I don’t always carry this much gear. This was full 3L bladder, food, supplies, elbow/knee pads, people/animal deterrent. This was my “worst case scenario”. Sometimes it’s just a water bottle for rides 1 hour or less. I do like to be prepared for anything though.
Trust me, the weight of the bike makes a big difference. I can throw this bike around the trail so much easier than my full power e-8000 powered bike at 23.5kg. I still get a good workout/burn in. On my other bike I just hang on as it plows through everything. I can put in the same mileage, but am much more fresh after the ride. Both are still super fun, just different experiences on the trail and during the ride.

 

[jbrown15]

Real world testing:
94kg rider
3 kg backpack
2 kg kit
99 kg Total
Small Rise M10, stock with race face alloy pedals
~18.7 kg
Turbo mode
View attachment 53806

That's actually not that bad of range if you were riding in turbo mode the whole time?

 

[NOS_emtb’r]

Yes, got home and was in the red, but no idea exactly how much battery life was left since red could mean anything from 20% down. It had been in the red for awhile though.

 

[jbrown15]

Yes, got home and was in the red, but no idea exactly how much battery life was left since red could mean anything from 20% down. It had been in the red for awhile though.

If it was close to being completely drained the bike would have gone into Eco mode and not allow you to have it in Boost mode. So you probably would of had between 10-20% left.

 

[Harold]

Not quite, I made a video about 36V vs 48v systems. In short, 48V systems have less thermal loss in the motor, motor controller and in the battery (incl BMC) which affects energy efficiency.
Video here if interested:

Very well made video Olof!!
Thank you for enlightening us!

From a technical perspective 48V system indeed seems superior to 36V.
Does it translate into the user experience, that is another question.

One question.
Should I understand a 48V motor has more potential for torque software update, with less range sacrifice as compared to the updated Bosch performance CX for instance?

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

Very well made video Olof!!
Thank you for enlightening us!

From a technical perspective 48V system indeed seems superior to 36V.
Does it translate into the user experience, that is another question.

One question.
Should I understand a 48V motor has more potential for torque software update, with less range sacrifice as compared to the updated Bosch performance CX for instance?

Thank you, I am still learning. I think we should not read in too much into the higher voltage. I think the greatest advantage is at peak power when the thermal loss and overheating play a larger role. At 250W I don't think there is that much of a difference.

Have tried to contact both Mahle and Specialized for numbers, but they will not reveal that. But Specialized says there is a greater efficiency at higher cadence with the 48V motor.

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

This is what I got from Specialized. I don't know how much that we can learn from this, it's mostly marketing material probably. I think I was allowed to share it...

 

[Zimmerframe]

You have to love how Spesh even go so far as to measure "sound pressure at the 'drivers' ears" ...

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

You have to love how Spesh even go so far as to measure "sound pressure at the 'drivers' ears" ...

And that the torque "gently decreases in the higher cadence spectrum". ?

But I do love that motor and the bike too. Very smooth in all aspects and I really think it is a milestone in the short history of eMTBs.