Orbea Rise vs Levo SL range

[Steve G H]

It won't be 33% better at the same actual power output, maybe as much as 5% in reality, but no more. It would be interesting to do an actual like for like comparison rather than just saying that one or the other is better because you happen to own one and you'd take it to bed with you if you could.

Lol , agreed , I own a Rise and honestly couldn't give a flying xxxx if its better or worse than the SL , I like both , nearly bought an SL but preferred the look and value of the Rise, plus its something new and I like to be a bit different. We all love our bikes so why all the comparing ? Just get out and ride um !

 

[cappuccino34]

It won't be 33% better at the same actual power output, maybe as much as 5% in reality, but no more. It would be interesting to do an actual like for like comparison rather than just saying that one or the other is better because you happen to own one and you'd take it to bed with you if you could.

Lol , agreed , I own a Rise and honestly couldn't give a flying xxxx if its better or worse than the SL , I like both , nearly bought an SL but preferred the look and value of the Rise, plus its something new and I like to be a bit different. We all love our bikes so why all the comparing ? Just get out and ride um !

I am interested (ish) in range because I am looking to buy a light bike and I do occasionally do longer rides; 45 off road miles with 5500 feet of climbing being the furthest I've been on my current (no pun intended) heavy bike, which is a Giant Trance with a 500 battery). To get the range I've turned the power down in some of the settings, with 'Eco' now being half of the previous assistance level.

There's a local route that I've set myself as a challenge, it's 47+ miles and about 6000 feet of climbing, some of that is pretty savage too, especially going anti-clockwise. Once I've done it, in one go, I'll then see how I can improve the time it takes to do. It's currently a longer ride than daylight permits, so I have to take adequate lighting to ride rough moorland and rocky tracks. The cold weather also reduces battery performance, which hasn't helped.

Back to the original subject though, we all know that the Rise motor has enough capacity in reserve to do more than it does, so the windings, gears, bearings etc will be on top of the job.

I have, however, seen SLs for sale with knackered motors not covered by warranty because they had been fitted with limiter defeat devices. If the motor can't cope with such a small increase in output demand, then it must be close to the limit of its design envelope.

That said, I wouldn't want to fit such a device myself, and I haven't thus ruled out buying an SL, or anything else for that matter, I just think that, for the money, an SL Comp is very poorly specced, and rides like it.

I was hoping to get a test on a Rise for a day, but it seems like there's none around until the middle of this year.

 

[Pdoz]

Great discussion. I own both bikes. In order to quantify a meaningful difference in efficiency the motor systems would have to be bench tested as I believe the difference is so small. The Rise has a 12.5% larger battery which trumps the difference in efficiency, thus the Rise will go further. With extenders the range difference will be even higher. I do believe however that there are more important things to take into consideration when choosing between the two bikes.

Can you give your impression of how each pedals with the motor off? My instinct is the range magic for the sl has more to do with the bikes efficiency than the motor .

 

[Steve G H]

I am interested (ish) in range because I am looking to buy a light bike and I do occasionally do longer rides; 45 off road miles with 5500 feet of climbing being the furthest I've been on my current (no pun intended) heavy bike, which is a Giant Trance with a 500 battery). To get the range I've turned the power down in some of the settings, with 'Eco' now being half of the previous assistance level.

There's a local route that I've set myself as a challenge, it's 47+ miles and about 6000 feet of climbing, some of that is pretty savage too, especially going anti-clockwise. Once I've done it, in one go, I'll then see how I can improve the time it takes to do. It's currently a longer ride than daylight permits, so I have to take adequate lighting to ride rough moorland and rocky tracks. The cold weather also reduces battery performance, which hasn't helped.

Back to the original subject though, we all know that the Rise motor has enough capacity in reserve to do more than it does, so the windings, gears, bearings etc will be on top of the job.

I have, however, seen SLs for sale with knackered motors not covered by warranty because they had been fitted with limiter defeat devices. If the motor can't cope with such a small increase in output demand, then it must be close to the limit of its design envelope.

That said, I wouldn't want to fit such a device myself, and I haven't thus ruled out buying an SL, or anything else for that matter, I just think that, for the money, an SL Comp is very poorly specced, and rides like it.

I was hoping to get a test on a Rise for a day, but it seems like there's none around until the middle of this year.

Biketreks in the Lakes aren't that far from you I believe ? They had a demo coming in and stock this month . MTB Monster worth a look too , both super helpful dealers and if I could have travelled I'd have happily ordered from either of them .

 

[cappuccino34]

Biketreks in the Lakes aren't that far from you I believe ? They had a demo coming in and stock this month . MTB Monster worth a look too , both super helpful dealers and if I could have travelled I'd have happily ordered from either of them .

Thanks for the info.

I hired an SL from them for the day a couple of months ago.

At the time they weren't expecting a Rise delivery until mid-year, they had been expecting them around now but orders got put back. Maybe they found some stock so I'll give them a shout, although I expect that they'll be shut just at the moment.

 

[Steve G H]

Thanks for the info.

I hired an SL from them for the day a couple of months ago.

At the time they weren't expecting a Rise delivery until mid-year, they had been expecting them around now but orders got put back. Maybe they found some stock so I'll give them a shout, although I expect that they'll be shut just at the moment.

Mike at Biketreks was super helpful , they were due a Large before Christmas that he was going to give me some feedback on and a medium coming in mid January . Could well have been delayed , I managed to get mine more locally in the end by just emailing every dealer within a set radius , was amazed I found one that hadn't been reserved .

 

[sendler2112]

I own a Rise

Does your Rise have the rattle noise in the motor while descending rough trails? I have seen some videos of the Rise that don't seem to have this rattle that other Shimano EP8 bikes do.

 

[Steve G H]

Does your Rise have the rattle noise in the motor while descending rough trails? I have seen some videos of the Rise that don't seem to have this rattle that other Shimano EP8 bikes do.

It's there but it's nowhere near as bad as you'd be led to believe , my old bikes chain made more noise . It's only at that point where it's disengaged , you can hear it if you rotate the pedals while bike is stationary , it's on the first slight movement . Any pressure on the pedals at all and it's like it takes up that little bit of slack and it stops it . Honestly I can't say it's really bothered me and barely hear it above general trail noise , I thought it would be alot worse , I think go pro recording must pic it up and emphasize it

 

[Gutch]

It's there but it's nowhere near as bad as you'd be led to believe , my old bikes chain made more noise . It's only at that point where it's disengaged , you can hear it if you rotate the pedals while bike is stationary , it's on the first slight movement . Any pressure on the pedals at all and it's like it takes up that little bit of slack and it stops it . Honestly I can't say it's really bothered me and barely hear it above general trail noise , I thought it would be alot worse , I think go pro recording must pic it up and emphasize it

I chased that noise when I was done with my build, kept thinking? What’s loose? What did I forget?! Then I just started bouncing the bike up and down on the ground and realized it was coming from the motor, I’m over it, definitely not a deal breaker.

 

[cappuccino34]

It's mostly the rear suspension kinematics pulling on the chain in quick compression situations. (Doing the opposite of anti-squat).

People making something out of nothing.

 

[TorAtle]

Can you give your impression of how each pedals with the motor off? My instinct is the range magic for the sl has more to do with the bikes efficiency than the motor

I have studded tires on the Rise now, so hard to compare. But I wonder if it would be possible to measure any difference by putting the bikes on a stand and use a ratchet with torque meter on the crank...

 

[RickBullotta]

I'll bet there is: the Mahle 1.1 is definitely a more efficient design, being 48v rather than 36v in the case of the Shimano - that can add up to as much as 33% more efficiency, other things being equal.

Definitely a 48V system typically is more efficient in terms of resistive heat losses. However, if I recall correctly energy loss from resistance/heat in most DC motors is relatively small compared to total energy input/effective mechanical output.

Otherwise we'd all be riding powered by 300 million volt lighting bolts. ;-)

Which might be kinda fun.

Cheers.

 

[jka]

Definitely a 48V system typically is more efficient in terms of resistive heat losses. However, if I recall correctly energy loss from resistance/heat in most DC motors is relatively small compared to total energy input/effective mechanical output.

Otherwise we'd all be riding powered by 300 million volt lighting bolts. ;-)

Which might be kinda fun.

Cheers.

That would send a tingle up my spine.

 

[RickBullotta]

That would send a tingle up my spine.

That would likely not be the first point of entry for the current surge though...

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

Definitely a 48V system typically is more efficient in terms of resistive heat losses. However, if I recall correctly energy loss from resistance/heat in most DC motors is relatively small compared to total energy input/effective mechanical output.

Otherwise we'd all be riding powered by 300 million volt lighting bolts. ;-)

Which might be kinda fun.

Cheers.

What I want to know is why systems don't use 1V then, or 100V. Why 36?

My guess is that we use 36V because of available components (cost) and because of history (first 6V, then 12V, 24V e t c).

Still no reply from my email to Mahle...

 

[jka]

That would likely not be the first point of entry for the current surge though...

Unfortunately, very true, but this is a family friendly forum so no need to discuss the specific delicate details. I do think I'd leave my chain mail athletic supporter home that day though.

 

[cappuccino34]

I am not biased towards any specific system, I just want to learn. The 33% increase in efficiency that suddenly came up in this discussion is wrong, so let's leave that behind us. I would expect that a 48V system would gain more than 1% efficiency, perhaps around 5% (a wild guess that is, I don't know). The assumptions that I have are from talking to people who have worked with electrical motor systems. But lets see if Mahle will help us out.
My personal bet is that in the future we will see systems with higher voltages. There are no downsides, only upsides. How large the upsides are, we don't really know yet here in this forum (I think...).

There are downsides with running higher voltage in situations that include water, which obviously bikes do. More voltage requires better separation is required.

Current handling is one of the reasons that they typically run 36v. A 12v system, for example, would require triple the current capacity with thicker cabling, better pwm capacity, better connectors.
Faster charging would be a plus factor, assuming that the charger can do the current.
Higher voltage and then leakage becomes more of a potential problem.

They could run pretty much whatever voltage they want, but the configuration of the battery cells would have to be connected to suit. Typically, groups of a few cells are connected together in parallel and then those groups are connected in series to produce the required voltage.

In short, they aren't limited to any particular voltage, they weigh the pros and cons of the situation and make a choice.

My guess as to why Mahle went 48v was to save weight. A higher voltage motor can be smaller for a given power output, and has thinner windings in the motor because they don't need to pass as much current (nor are able to).

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

There are downsides with running higher voltage in situations that include water, which obviously bikes do. More voltage requires better separation is required.

Current handling is one of the reasons that they typically run 36v. A 12v system, for example, would require triple the current capacity with thicker cabling, better pwm capacity, better connectors.
Faster charging would be a plus factor, assuming that the charger can do the current.
Higher voltage and then leakage becomes more of a potential problem.

They could run pretty much whatever voltage they want, but the configuration of the battery cells would have to be connected to suit. Typically, groups of a few cells are connected together in parallel and then those groups are connected in series to produce the required voltage.

In short, they aren't limited to any particular voltage, they weigh the pros and cons of the situation and make a choice.

My guess as to why Mahle went 48v was to save weight. A higher voltage motor can be smaller for a given power output, and has thinner windings in the motor because they don't need to pass as much current (nor are able to).

I pretty much agree with everything you say. That the motor can be made smaller is also one of my arguments in my video. Maybe weight savings was a more important factor in this case (Levo SL) rather than a few percentages(?) of increased range?

 

[cappuccino34]

I pretty much agree with everything you say. That the motor can be made smaller is also one of my arguments in my video. Maybe weight savings was a more important factor in this case (Levo SL) rather than a few percentages(?) of increased range?

Headline grabbing 'the lightest'...

I might still buy an SL yet, but the decision won't be taken on a baseless argument.

 

[VWsurfbum]

Wow very interesting reading, I can't believe I read a whole forum thread with no arguing, name-calling, or general internet stupidness! Well done.
I must admit I'm intrigued by the rise, and when the world returns to a slightly more normal state I'd like to test ride one as n+1.

 

[cappuccino34]

Wow very interesting reading, I can't believe I read a whole forum thread with no arguing, name-calling, or general internet stupidness! Well done.
I must admit I'm intrigued by the rise, and when the world returns to a slightly more normal state I'd like to test ride one as n+1.

You big sissy!

There, happy now? ?

 

[Mteam]

I think the ebike legislation (EN 15194 ) specifies a maximum voltage as well - might be 48V?

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

I think the ebike legislation (EN 15194 ) specifies a maximum voltage as well - might be 48V?

Found this abstract.

EN 15194:2017
(MAIN)
Cycles - Electrically power assisted cycles - EPAC Bicycles

This European Standard specifies requirements and test methods for engine power management systems, electrical circuits including the charging system for the design and assembly of electrically power assisted bicycles and sub-assemblies for systems having a rated voltage up to and including 48 V d.c. or integrated battery charger with a nominal 230 V a.c. input.

 

[cappuccino34]

Just out of interest, it's very likely that cars will be going to 48v for starting and ancillary systems to reduce the weight of cabling and the size of motors.

IMHO they should tax cars based on how many electric motors they contain so they don't fit so much pointless bullshit crap that they do currently.
Do we REALLY need motorised flaps over the heater vents so that the dash looks neater when the car is turned off?

 

[cappuccino34]

VW Phaeton. Driving one is like getting a donkey ride off a Sumo wrestler. Nearly three tonnes of lard.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Do we REALLY need motorised flaps over the heater vents so that the dash looks neater when the car is turned off?

Are they motorised or vacuum ?

 

[cappuccino34]

Are they motorised or vacuum ?

Pretty certain they are motorised, they buzz as they open and close.
Really awful, awful car though. A super efficient way of turning money into pollution is how best I can describe it.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Pretty certain they are motorised, they buzz as they open and close.
Really awful, awful car though. A super efficient way of turning money into pollution is how best I can describe it.

It was quite impressive just how expensive you could make a passat

Still .. Funky engine ... pointless .... but funky ...

 

[cappuccino34]

It was quite impressive just how expensive you could make a passat

Still .. Funky engine ... pointless .... but funky ...

I thought, "5.0 V10 TDi, this is going to go a bit". I could not believe how slow and clumsy they are.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I thought, "5.0 V10 TDi, this is going to go a bit". I could not believe how slow and clumsy they are.

Yup .. I thought the same when they announced it ... oooh a beast ... uhmmmmm

Amazingly it weighs more than some of the v10 Touareg's (Almost bought one of those just on torque numbers and I think it was the first thing with a powered tow bar ? .... I know I know ... you want MORE electric motors ..) But then I almost dropped the 6.5 turbo hummer engine into my landy - which would have been an equal mistake .. I'm still not sure if it would have out towed my mate with his 928 - that was f. amazing for towing a boat ! Ah, to be young and stupid again instead of old and stupider .. I still pine after a black 928 s4 with grey leather interior.... there's just something cool about it .. and no, I don't want to Risky Business u-boat commander it ..

Anyway .. how in any universe can someone who races a cappuccino (which should probably be renamed using a play of words as Expresso....) also drive the vehicular equivalent of Jabba the Hutt ??? Or maybe even a death star, though I suspect a death star is easier to push up a hill, certainly a mk1 death star.