Orbea Rise H15 Battery Charge/Discharge issues

[redrhino]

If you own the new Rise H, please check if your battery starts discharging after reaching full charge and staying connected to the charger.

Between myself and friends we have 4 new H15 bikes. We were all were noticing that starting rides the battery was not fully charged, even though it was plugged in for more than enough time.

If you don't have a garmin that displays battery %, you need to check the battery with st unlocker app after charging. Otherwise you may not notice it isn't fully charged, because the display still shows 5 bars for over 80%.

I completed two recent tests to debug this:

1. Battery was charged and checked at 100% at night. Plugged the charger back in and in the morning the battery was at 96%
2. Battery depleted to 20% after a ride. Battery was plugged in and charged, then left on charger for two days. Unplugged and checked battery and charge is at 80%.

Charging is being done direct to outlet, no extension cords.

I'll be reaching out to Orbea to see if there is a known issue, but the fact that this is happening on all of our bikes makes me thing it could be a widespread problem.

 

[Bcohee]

If you own the new Rise H, please check if your battery starts discharging after reaching full charge and staying connected to the charger.

Between myself and friends we have 4 new H15 bikes. We were all were noticing that starting rides the battery was not fully charged, even though it was plugged in for more than enough time.

If you don't have a garmin that displays battery %, you need to check the battery with st unlocker app after charging. Otherwise you may not notice it isn't fully charged, because the display still shows 5 bars for over 80%.

I completed two recent tests to debug this:

1. Battery was charged and checked at 100% at night. Plugged the charger back in and in the morning the battery was at 96%
2. Battery depleted to 20%. Battery was plugged in and charged, then left on charger for two days. Unplugged and checked battery and charge is at 80%.

Charging is being done direct to outlet, no extension cords.

I'll be reaching out to Orbea to see if there is a known issue, but the fact that this is happening on all of our bikes makes me thing it could be a widespread problem.

I’m having the same issue with an h15 I had delivered about a month ago. I only have about 6 rides under my belt. The last few I’ve noticed I’m down a bar at the start. Let me know what you hear, I should reach out also

 

[urastus]

Perhaps it is a widespread shimano issue?

 

[redrhino]

Perhaps it is a widespread shimano issue?

I doubt it is a shimano issue since the battery and charger are not shimano and reports would likely be more widespread across manufacturers. Also my friend has a Rise M and does not have the issue. I'm thinking maybe a charger issue?

 

[benzy]

This clarifies what I saw this weekend - dropped to 4 bars within the first 2-3 miles of my ride after connected to the charger overnight.

I take it from the OP post that if you disconnect when full it should not drain power as rapidly?

please report Orbeas response.

 

[redrhino]

This clarifies what I saw this weekend - dropped to 4 bars within the first 2-3 miles of my ride after connected to the charger overnight.

I take it from the OP post that if you disconnect when full it should not drain power as rapidly?

please report Orbeas response.

Yes if you disconnect within a small window after the charge reaches 100% you are good. It doesn't drain once the charger is unplugged.

I would imagine a lot of riders are not noticing the problem yet but more and more will start wondering why they drop 1 bar so quickly on a ride.

If you use the ST Unlocker app you can check the actual battery percent on the info tab after you connect the bike.

 

[urastus]

battery and charger are not shimano

Ahh, didn't know that. Yes, it's nice to buy from manufacturers that have a big r&r budget; even then they still have some trouble.

 

[MOG]

I have seen this twice on my H15 bought new at start of Feb. Charger was left on until used and was on 84 and 85% respectively.

 

[Longfellow78]

Yes if you disconnect within a small window after the charge reaches 100% you are good. It doesn't drain once the charger is unplugged.

I would imagine a lot of riders are not noticing the problem yet but more and more will start wondering why they drop 1 bar so quickly on a ride.

If you use the ST Unlocker app you can check the actual battery percent on the info tab after you connect the bike.

So you're saying this issue can be mitigated if you unplug quite soon after reaching fully charge, but if you leave on for "too long" once fully charged then the battery begins to discharge to around 85% - does it then stabilize or keep discharging?

To be honest this almost sounds like a design feature - batteries shouldn't be left at 100% charge when stored, so presumably if you take it off the charger after it gets to 100% then you are "just about to ride" however if you leave it plugged in for days, I can imagine this is not the best situation for the battery to be in, and there is an automatic discharge feature to protect it. For example if you forgot it was plugged in and ignored it for a month and it stayed topped up to 100% this would be bad for its health.

RC battery chargers for example has a storage function to discharge or charge batteries to a safe level for storage. It sounds to me that this is a design feature, given that it is not a battery problem, i.e. it is not an issue with the battery failing to accept 100% and topping out at 85% - it gets to 100 but then drops if left on charge too long.

Is my understanding of the "issue" correct and therefore does my guessed explanation make sense?

This link says: 5 Electric Bike Charging Tips for Long Battery Life

Tip No. 4: Don’t Overcharge an Electric Bike Battery
Don’t just leave your electric bike battery on the charger for long periods of time — think several days or more. When you do, you can create a situation wherein the battery will discharge leaving it at perhaps 95 percent of capacity. The charger then goes to work, topping off the battery. This cycle of minor discharges and topping off continues creating a series of poor charging cycles.

Instead, use a timer on your mobile device to remind you to take the battery off of the charger.

 

[mark.ai]

There was a similar problem on the Lapierre Overvolt Shimano powered bikes (which also had a custom battery) - if you left the battery in the bike with the charger connected then after getting to full it began to discharge. If you removed the battery and left it charging then it worked fine (with no discharging).

 

[benzy]

So you're saying this issue can be mitigated if you unplug quite soon after reaching fully charge, but if you leave on for "too long" once fully charged then the battery begins to discharge to around 85% - does it then stabilize or keep discharging?

To be honest this almost sounds like a design feature - batteries shouldn't be left at 100% charge when stored, so presumably if you take it off the charger after it gets to 100% then you are "just about to ride" however if you leave it plugged in for days, I can imagine this is not the best situation for the battery to be in, and there is an automatic discharge feature to protect it. For example if you forgot it was plugged in and ignored it for a month and it stayed topped up to 100% this would be bad for its health.

RC battery chargers for example has a storage function to discharge or charge batteries to a safe level for storage. It sounds to me that this is a design feature, given that it is not a battery problem, i.e. it is not an issue with the battery failing to accept 100% and topping out at 85% - it gets to 100 but then drops if left on charge too long.

Is my understanding of the "issue" correct and therefore does my guessed explanation make sense?

This link says: 5 Electric Bike Charging Tips for Long Battery Life

Tip No. 4: Don’t Overcharge an Electric Bike Battery
Don’t just leave your electric bike battery on the charger for long periods of time — think several days or more. When you do, you can create a situation wherein the battery will discharge leaving it at perhaps 95 percent of capacity. The charger then goes to work, topping off the battery. This cycle of minor discharges and topping off continues creating a series of poor charging cycles.

Instead, use a timer on your mobile device to remind you to take the battery off of the charger.

I’d be surprised if this is an intended feature. Having to time your charge is a defect/limitation of cheap of Alibaba tier ebikes. Bosch/shimano systems have smarter chargers.

And I don’t see any functional advantage to wearing out the battery with one full charge cycle to just immediately deplete the charge to 85%. Long term discharging, yeah. But not within 10-12 hours. Smart chargers should never overcharge.

If my Bosch powered daily commuter did this is would be a major limitation. My take is this is bug that can be fixed (hopeful) or the charger is not that smart.

 

[mtbrdan]

My friends and I have 3 H30's and also have experienced the same issue, charges to 100% but if left on the charger it will discharge down to 86% ( numbers verified by Garmin ) . Orbea was contacted and they sent us out new chargers but just yesterday I noticed the same issue, I had left the bike plugged in overnight and it was as 86%, plugged it back in again for 45 minutes or so and it was back up at 100%. At this point I will just work around the issue.

 

[Longfellow78]

Can anyone specify How long does it take to change the h battery from 0-100 please?

 

[Ducman71]

Can anyone specify How long does it take to change the h battery from 0-100 please?

This is quite easy to work out on your own if nobody chimes in. Just do a partial charge from a known charge % (using a Garmin or whatever), charge it for a an hour, check the resulting charge %, then do some high school level math. I did this when I first got my M-Team, and quickly figured out that it charges at a rate of about 20% per hour. This matches with Orbea's recommendation in the blue paper to not leave it on the charger for more than 5 hours (which would fully charge the battery from empty). I just set a timer on my phone when I put the bike on the charger, and knowing the % charge when I start, it's easy to know when it full be fully charged. I also use this simple math if I want to partially charge it to around 70% for storage for example.

 

[gsum]

This is quite easy to work out on your own if nobody chimes in. Just do a partial charge from a known charge % (using a Garmin or whatever), charge it for a an hour, check the resulting charge %, then do some high school level math. I did this when I first got my M-Team, and quickly figured out that it charges at a rate of about 20% per hour. This matches with Orbea's recommendation in the blue paper to not leave it on the charger for more than 5 hours (which would fully charge the battery from empty). I just set a timer on my phone when I put the bike on the charger, and knowing the % charge when I start, it's easy to know when it full be fully charged. I also use this simple math if I want to partially charge it to around 70% for storage for example.

You need to be a bit careful with that method as the charge rate varies for lithium batteries depending on the charge state. The charge rate is at its slowest between 0% to 10% and between 90% to 100%. As long as you're within the 10% to 90% bounds you'll be fine.

 

[randycpu]

This sounds like the BMS is balancing the cell groups, but maybe going too far.
But def a BMS problem and not the charger. Chargers are relatively stupid devices. The BMS is where the "intelligence" is.

 

[urastus]

Can anyone specify How long does it take to change the h battery from 0-100 please?

I'm just adding to what others have said. For my bike which is e8000 and 504wh battery, 1% is pretty close to 225 seconds of charge. That's up to 80%. After 80% supposedly it speeds up, as opposed to other batteries and chargers. I have the slower shimano charger. I use a timer and generally charge up to 80%, with a full charge every 4 or 5 charges.

 

[Ducman71]

You need to be a bit careful with that method as the charge rate varies for lithium batteries depending on the charge state. The charge rate is at its slowest between 0% to 10% and between 90% to 100%. As long as you're within the 10% to 90% bounds you'll be fine.

True, the charge rate ramps up at very low SOC, and it ramps down at close to fully charged (for cell balancing), but overall the 20%/hr figure is a useful and easy to remember figure for the 360wh battery. If I'm doing a partial charge, say from 20% to 70% for storage, 2.5 hours on the charger gets it right. If I'm fully charging, say from 20% to 100%, I'll set a timer for 4 hours and usually within 10 or so minutes of the timer the charge light switches to green. I'm just using the timer as a reminder so that I can disconnect the charger when charging stops rather than letting it sit on the charger for a prolonged period (overnight, whatever). The blue paper does recommend not leaving it on the charger for more than 5 hours; not sure what the blue paper for the H models states.

 

[steve54321]

Just posting this in case there's any other Electrical/Software Engineers on this thread.
I'm thinking we need a monitor that will manage the charger for us. If it was me, just because I already have the right parts I'd need: I would use an ESP32 micro controller where you can say set 90% charge level as the target, it could use BLE to monitor the ebike field from the Garmin connect IQ stack, then it could throw a relay when the charging target is needed to cut power to the charger. Or load the stack for interfacing with a smart plug to avoid the relay connection to mains voltage. I'm time poor for doing this, but can see the need for something like this. I like the idea of taking my charge to around 90% only (or a level I choose) given it is the last 10% that causes the most degradation to the lifespan of Lithiums. If anyone knows the developer for ST Unlock or EMax... They already have the code for the interface done.. they could add a really simple charging monitor alarm on the phone to alert you when it hits a user specified percent.

 

[randycpu]

Just posting this in case there's any other Electrical/Software Engineers on this thread.
I'm thinking we need a monitor that will manage the charger for us. If it was me, just because I already have the right parts I'd need: I would use an ESP32 micro controller where you can say set 90% charge level as the target, it could use BLE to monitor the ebike field from the Garmin connect IQ stack, then it could throw a relay when the charging target is needed to cut power to the charger. Or load the stack for interfacing with a smart plug to avoid the relay connection to mains voltage. I'm time poor for doing this, but can see the need for something like this. I like the idea of taking my charge to around 90% only (or a level I choose) given it is the last 10% that causes the most degradation to the lifespan of Lithiums. If anyone knows the developer for ST Unlock or EMax... They already have the code for the interface done.. they could add a really simple charging monitor alarm on the phone to alert you when it hits a user specified percent.

Chargers with an adjustable endpoint are already available in the aftermarket for 48 and 52-volt packs. It is a very cheap and easy analog solution, but the circuits must be accessible to install an adjustment pot.
These Luna Charger 48V Advanced 300W Ebike Charger also have an adjustable charge rate.
As I have said before, the real problem is again the BMS design. None balance the pack until they perceive the top end of the SOC curve (4.20 volts). So the pack will quickly go out of balance and lost capacity.

 

[steve54321]

Chargers with an adjustable endpoint are already available in the aftermarket for 48 and 52-volt packs. It is a very cheap and easy analog solution, but the circuits must be accessible to install an adjustment pot.
These Luna Charger 48V Advanced 300W Ebike Charger also have an adjustable charge rate.
As I have said before, the real problem is again the BMS design. None balance the pack until they perceive the top end of the SOC curve (4.20 volts). So the pack will quickly go out of balance and lost capacity.

That made me stop and think that this wouldn't work anyway. I was originally thinking of this like say a 4 cell Lipo where you can get smart chargers that balance charge through the entire process. But with 30 cells in the Rise H, there's no way you can do that. So my guess is that it charges everything through the main discharge wire until the first cell or group of cells hits 4.2V. Then it will go into a very slow balance cycle where it is leveling all cells out to 4.2V or letting any with a differing resistance catch up. They usually do this by dropping the input down into milliamps and trying to use the power up off any cells that are now going above 4.2V. No wonder these batteries charge up to 90% fast and then slow right down. Now I'm thinking that it would be a bad thing to stop this at 90% as the cells would not be in balance yet. Then when you go to ride, I would assume they would balance out a bit and you would see a quick drop to say 80%. I'm now thinking that finishing a charge out at 100% and ensuring the cells are balanced would be a better idea??

 

[randycpu]

That made me stop and think that this wouldn't work anyway. I was originally thinking of this like say a 4 cell Lipo where you can get smart chargers that balance charge through the entire process. But with 30 cells in the Rise H, there's no way you can do that. So my guess is that it charges everything through the main discharge wire until the first cell or group of cells hits 4.2V. Then it will go into a very slow balance cycle where it is leveling all cells out to 4.2V or letting any with a differing resistance catch up. They usually do this by dropping the input down into milliamps and trying to use the power up off any cells that are now going above 4.2V. No wonder these batteries charge up to 90% fast and then slow right down. Now I'm thinking that it would be a bad thing to stop this at 90% as the cells would not be in balance yet. Then when you go to ride, I would assume they would balance out a bit and you would see a quick drop to say 80%. I'm now thinking that finishing a charge out at 100% and ensuring the cells are balanced would be a better idea??

YES. Exactly.
Just a small correction: The balancing mechanism is to "switch on" small surface-mounted resistors (with PWM using FETs) to keep the cells that reach 4.20 volts from exceeding that voltage. The current to the whole pack is restricted during this phase by the power limits on these very small resistors.

 

[steve54321]

YES. Exactly.
Just a small correction: The balancing mechanism is to "switch on" small surface-mounted resistors (with PWM using FETs) to keep the cells that reach 4.20 volts from exceeding that voltage. The current to the whole pack is restricted during this phase by the power limits on these very small resistors.

Thanks - that makes sense - you are then limited by the heat dissipation from those resistors/FETs and I would imagine the most likely failure point of the whole system. Hope they chose a quality BMS as that would be the $5 part that makes a $1000 worth of cells worthless.

 

[SillyPosition]

Is this issue exist in the carbon version as well?

 

[Planemo]

So my guess is that it charges everything through the main discharge wire until the first cell or group of cells hits 4.2V. Then it will go into a very slow balance cycle where it is leveling all cells out to 4.2V or letting any with a differing resistance catch up. They usually do this by dropping the input down into milliamps and trying to use the power up off any cells that are now going above 4.2V.

Correct, but the balancing threshold is a little lower, around 4.1 to 4.15v. Also, the resistors don't bleed off everything - a cell at 4.15v with a resistor activated will still 'charge' a little, albeit very slowly. If it does hit 4.2v+ the whole system shuts down, as does any balancing that hasn't yet taken place for any low cells. This is why any cells that were really unbalanced can sometimes never recover unless the pack is stripped down and each cell string is charged individually.

No wonder these batteries charge up to 90% fast and then slow right down. Now I'm thinking that it would be a bad thing to stop this at 90% as the cells would not be in balance yet.

Absolutely. Charging to anything less than 100% (unless for storage) is a very bad idea.

Then when you go to ride, I would assume they would balance out a bit and you would see a quick drop to say 80%. I'm now thinking that finishing a charge out at 100% and ensuring the cells are balanced would be a better idea??

Any low cells don't balance out during a ride. In fact, they are stressed more than the higher voltage cells and therefore get further out of balance than when the ride started.

 

[mark.ai]

Is this issue exist in the carbon version as well?

I’ve never experienced it with mine, and I’ve left it charging overnight sometimes.

 

[redrhino]

Is this issue exist in the carbon version as well?

My friend has the carbon M and it is not an issue on his. Seems to just be the new H versions.

 

[r4yv3n]

My friend is having the same "problem" with his Rise H30. I haven't any problem with my M20.
We were thinking if there was any problem with the battery.
Now we know the truth

 

[TKB]

This behavior can't be accepted! It's up to the user if one wants to start a ride with 100 or 80%.

I really hope Orbea fixes this! Is this an issue with all Hydro models?
Am in the process of ordering a H15..

 

[redrhino]

Yeah, the bike shop support got back to me and they are starting to say it is a feature instead of a bug... this was my response:
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It is a bit crazy to me if that is a feature and not a bug. I could see that making sense if it started draining after being plugged in for a few days. But, now it is going to require a lot of management and setting reminders to go check the charge and unplug it. For example, you get home from a ride and plug it in… expecting it to be charged and ready for your ride the next day. Unless you went back out to the garage and unplugged it at just the right time, you won’t have a 100% battery for your ride.

It is also impossible to know the exact amount of time it will take to get to 100% when you plug the bike in, because the battery is always at different levels after your ride, so it is a total guessing game. The charger would need to be a smart charger that sends a notification to your phone letting you know it is charged and how long you have to unplug it before it starts draining.

I also read on an ebike forum that some people were being sent new chargers by Orbea when they reported the issue, so that makes it seem like it is an unexpected issue at their end. Orbea Rise H15 Battery Charge/Discharge issues - EMTB Forums

Please pass my feedback along to Orbea as I have never heard of another eBike doing this and is a pretty undesirable. If they are calling it a feature that seems disingenuous.
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