Orbea Rise - Changing Max Nm & Watts

[Bsqr]

My wife has two e-bikes, one a BMC Alpenchallenge Amp Cross with the E8000 motor and just recently a Orbea Rise with the EP8 RS motor. The bikes weigh virtually the same at 37.10 lbs for Orbea and 38.0 lbs for the BMC. For whatever reason she's really struggling with the Rise and says the BMC provides a lot more assist when comparing performance in ECO. This is the case even with the following (similar) settings.

Using ST Unlocker I have both bikes setup pretty similarly for ECO.
Rise EP8 RS - 100%, 34Nm max, 300W max
BMC E8000 - 90%, 34Nm max, 500W max

With the BMC E8000 the max wattage for all modes is 500W and can't be changed (with ST Unlocker). With the Rise EP8 RS the default wattage for ECO is 150W and can be changed. I guess my next step will be to bump the 300W to 400W or 500W, but I actually have no idea if the 300W is realistically a limiting factor. For all I know, you would need a cadence of 150 @ 34Nm to get to 300W?

So my big question is, as I continue to tweak settings, can I set the Rise EP8 RS motor max Nm and max wattage to the same levels as an EP8 motor? I know the EP8 is 85Nm max; does anybody know what the default max wattage limit is set for on the EP8?

Additionally, I'm having a difficult time understanding how the riders riding characteristics affect the way the EP8 RS delivers power vs E8000. This probably deserves a separate thread in itself, but if there's a quick and easy explanation for the differences I would welcome it. I'm not actually riding the bikes myself so it can be a little bit like throwing darts.

I realize that as I tweak things higher and higher the Rise is going to consume more & more battery. That's an issue I'll deal with separately. Her range is really not bad at all, but perhaps a battery extender is in the future.

 

[Gary]

For all I know, you would need a cadence of 150 @ 34Nm to get to 300W?

i think you may be confusing how wattage is achieved by a rider with how motor assistance is determined BY the motor.

Eco will give a fairly linear addition to the pedalling input of the rider but less at lower cadences and less at very high cadences.
Trail is a far more intuitive mode as the motor adds assistance based more on how much pedalling torque the rider is putting in.
Boost is similar to Eco but with far higher assistance through out. Hence it's punchy less controllable nature (than Trail)

The EP8 and E8000 both begin to taper off their assisted output over 100rpm and noticably at 110-120rpm. The sweet spot for gaining most motor assistance is a fair bit lower than that.

Looking at what sort of bike the BMC is the added rolling resistance from the wider, softer mtb tyres on the Orbea will also be making a huge difference to how much more effort it is to pedal

 

[Killswitch73]

I’m a little confused as you are comparing 2 motors . 1 is a full fat power 75nm E8000 and the 2nd is a reduced power 60nm max ,so the E8000 is going to be more powerful .

Just asking if you have the rise in profile 2 to get the max 60nm from the Rise. To get the rise in profile 2 you need to use the E-tube app .

when I’m in profile 2 on turbo set to max everything I feel as though the rise is quicker due to the weight difference as 5kg is a lot of weight reduction with the rotating Mass under you .

And no you cannot change the 60nm RS to 85nm , not without a software flash from a shop .

 

[DaveW2]

To help make sense of what is happening, a simple formula relates power, torque and pedal cadence. Power (Watts) = (Torque (Nm) x rpm)/9.554. So your example of 150 rpm at 34 Nm would be 534 Watts.

 

[Bsqr]

Just asking if you have the rise in profile 2 to get the max 60nm from the Rise . The E8000 is max 75nm .

Yes using (modified) Profile 2 as follows:
ECO - Rise 34Nm, E8000 34Nm
Trail - Rise 49Nm, E8000 60Nm
Boost - Rise 60Nm, E8000 70 Nm

At this point I'm not trying to dial in Trail or Boost a whole lot just yet. I'm just trying to understand ECO for now which has much lower settings than the max the motor is capable of.

I did a little homework regarding Torque and Power. I figure my wife probably peaks out at 250W (somewhat) continuous at 90rpm. If I have the formula right this works out to 26.5Nm so with the ECO max motor torque set at 100% of rider torque, the 34Nm max setting is not a limiting factor since the rider torque is less than 34Nm. Now if I changed the max motor torque to 150%, her 26.5Nm would equate to 39.75Nm motor output which exceeds the 34Nm max setting so the motors output would be limited to 34Nm (which is more like 128%).

 

[Gary]

To help make sense of what is happening, a simple formula relates power, torque and pedal cadence. Power (Watts) = (Torque (Nm) x rpm)/9.554. So your example of 150 rpm at 34 Nm would be 534 Watts.

Yeah. That formula stands true for a rider on a normal non motorised bike.
But on an Emtb the rider is always inputing PART of the torque and the motor is ADDING power to the drivetrain (but NOT CONTROLLING rpm). and the motor is not adding drive power in the way Bsqr seems to think it is anyway so his fag packet engenerding (calculations) are way off.

If the wife has a 250w FTP (unless she's very heavy) it seems odd she'd be complaining.
If she has a MAXIMUM power of 250w in her legs for a short burst she probably would have been better off with a full power Emtb.

and the BMC E Gravel hybrid would still feel easier to pedal even if the two bikes had the exact same motors.

 

[Bsqr]

Yeah. That formula stands true for a rider on a normal non motorised bike.
But on an Emtb the rider is always inputing PART of the torque and the motor is ADDING power to the drivetrain (but NOT CONTROLLING rpm). and the motor is not adding drive power in the way Bsqr seems to think it is anyway so his fag packet engenerding (calculations) are way off.

If the wife has a 250w FTP (unless she's very heavy) it seems odd she'd be complaining.
If she has a MAXIMUM power of 250w in her legs for a short burst she probably would have been better off with a full power Emtb.

and the BMC E Gravel hybrid would still feel easier to pedal even if the two bikes had the exact same motors.

Sorry for the misunderstanding Gary. I totally get the fact the motor is adding power. My understanding is the amount of motor power added is dependent on the rider power output at the time, with the total output = rider watts + motor watts.

I guess I could have been clearer about the 250W rider output on my wife's part. It was never intended to represent her FTP or her maximum power. For whatever reason, I tried to target a reasonable (high) power that she might hold for a 5 or 10 minute hill climb just to see if she was bumping up against the 34Nm max limit setting in ECO. With the motor set to add 100% (i.e. - 250W motor + 250W rider) it only worked out to 26.5Nm rider output which = 26.5Nm motor output. So the 34Nm limit in this scenario isn't having any effect.

I totally agree about the BMC rolling much better. From what I've read over the years this might account for 20W, maybe 30W? less power to go the same speed. Significant, but not a huge impact. The other factor in the BMC's favor is that it's a rigid bike. Even with the suspension on Rise locked out it's still going to squish a bit taking more power compare to the BMC.

 

[Bsqr]

I’m a little confused as you are comparing 2 motors . 1 is a full fat power 75nm E8000 and the 2nd is a reduced power 60nm max ,so the E8000 is going to be more powerful .

Just asking if you have the rise in profile 2 to get the max 60nm from the Rise. To get the rise in profile 2 you need to use the E-tube app .

when I’m in profile 2 on turbo set to max everything I feel as though the rise is quicker due to the weight difference as 5kg is a lot of weight reduction with the rotating Mass under you .

And no you cannot change the 60nm RS to 85nm , not without a software flash from a shop .

I could be wrong, but everything I've read indicates that EP8 RS motor is physically identical to the EP8 (85Nm) motor and the 60Nm limit on the RS is 100% software created. With the ST Unlocker App (free version) you can easily change the maximum torque to values above 60Nm.

Now whether or one could run into glitches of some sort and even "brick" their motor? Buyer beware; I suppose it's entirely possible. I read where one guy set the torque to something like 100Nm and the motor was cutting in and out. I think he was able revert back to a more reasonable torque without any ill effects, but I suspect something like that could easily cost you a new motor.

 

[Gary]

My understanding is the amount of motor power added is dependent on the rider power output at the time, with the total output = rider watts + motor watts.

it is
but it's not linear.
it's added based on torque sensor, speed sensor and cadence data to give a smooth delivery

 

[Bsqr]

it is
but it's not linear.
it's added based on torque sensor, speed sensor and cadence data to give a smooth delivery

Ahhh yes... That's where I struggle to fully comprehend . It's funny though, I've seen several graphs depicting rider torque vs motor torque that are linear up to the max torque setting. The linear slope up to the max is just steeper for higher assist "percentages". Maybe that's why I'm struggling so mightily trying to make heads or tails of how the various factors influence the motor assist level.

 

[Gary]

From what I've read over the years this might account for 20W, maybe 30W?

Depending on what tyres you're running it could be way more than that.
a good gravel tyre could be as low as 15-20w of resistance whereas an mtb tyre could be anywhere upto 70w (per tyre). Plus heavy wheels and tyres are noticably slower/harder to accelerate.

So yeah. The gravel bike is definitely going to be tons more efficient to pedal.

 

[Gary]

Ahhh yes... That's where I struggle to fully comprehend . It's funny though, I've seen several graphs depicting rider torque vs motor torque that are linear up to the max torque setting. The linear slope up to the max is just steeper for higher assist "percentages". Maybe that's why I'm struggling so mightily trying to make heads or tails of how the various factors influence the motor assist level.

graphical representations you mean?

in use an Emtb with gearing, cadence and effort changing constantly that's simply not how the motors behave

 

[Bsqr]

Depending on what tyres you're running it could be way more than that.
a good gravel tyre could be as low as 15-20w of resistance whereas an mtb tyre could be anywhere upto 70w (per tyre). Plus heavy wheels and tyres are noticably slower/harder to accelerate.

So yeah. The gravel bike is definitely going to be tons more efficient to pedal.

Agreed. In this instance the Rise has two wheel setups. One traditional mtb and one gravel. She's struggling with either wheelset. The gravel setup for the Rise is a 1319g wheelset with 2.25 Schwalbe Thunder Burts so it's just a little bit more rolling resistance than a 40mm WTB gravel tire and more than a pound lighter than the BMC wheelset!

 

[Gary]

Ah. Ok.
in that case it does sound like you should have her motor updated to standard STEPs firmware.
You will lose range though.

 

[Bsqr]

graphical representations you mean?

Here's the type of graph that I've run across several times.

 

[Gary]

Yes. Like I said. Graphical representations. Simplified marketing information to get the idea of how each mode behaves across to the punter.

 

[Richridesmtb]

I think you're forgetting that the Rise has the 'rider synergy' power delivery. It delivers a small peak initially at low cadence and a large peak as the cadence gets near optimal for rider output there is a bit of a dead spot in between where the rider has to pedal. They will not feel the same regardless of the power values.

 

[Longfellow78]

I could be wrong, but everything I've read indicates that EP8 RS motor is physically identical to the EP8 (85Nm) motor and the 60Nm limit on the RS is 100% software created. With the ST Unlocker App (free version) you can easily change the maximum torque to values above 60Nm.

Now whether or one could run into glitches of some sort and even "brick" their motor? Buyer beware; I suppose it's entirely possible. I read where one guy set the torque to something like 100Nm and the motor was cutting in and out. I think he was able revert back to a more reasonable torque without any ill effects, but I suspect something like that could easily cost you a new motor.

From what I've read it is not as simple as this. Yes the motor is capable of 85nm, but those trying it report that setting it to max causes problems such as a crunchy vibration or pulse from the motor when the battery goes below 50%, and also that there IS an increase up to about 70nm, but over this adding additional nm has no more effect.

As to why the above should be the case I am not an electrical enginner, but maybe something to do with the max current that the battery can supply to the motor? Or if there is any other hardware that is changed as part of the wiring or connection to the battery that would restrict max torque?

The other part of this whole thread that I find a bit confusing is that you talk about how your wife is finding it difficult with the rise and it is less poweful than the other bike, but you're also saying you are only testing with eco? surely the point is that eco gives little assistance - why aren't you testing in trail or boost. Also, it sounds like your wife is an experienced rider? Why is she struggling at all - after all the rise is only 8-10 lbs more than a normal trail bike, and the power assistance from eco would instantly mitigate that and way more. Is it just she is used to the more powerful bike and was expecting the rise to match it?

 

[aarfeldt]

I could be wrong, but everything I've read indicates that EP8 RS motor is physically identical to the EP8 (85Nm) motor and the 60Nm limit on the RS is 100% software created. With the ST Unlocker App (free version) you can easily change the maximum torque to values above 60Nm.

The motor us just a normal EP8, but the STUnlocker must be the payed version, to change settings (30€).
/if/ you do it, remember to change the max power to 500watt (eco/trail/boost), otherwise the change is minimal.

You can also change region to US, and wheel size to get 42km/h max speed with assistance, if needed.

 

[Bsqr]

From what I've read it is not as simple as this. Yes the motor is capable of 85nm, but those trying it report that setting it to max causes problems such as a crunchy vibration or pulse from the motor when the battery goes below 50%, and also that there IS an increase up to about 70nm, but over this adding additional nm has no more effect.

As to why the above should be the case I am not an electrical enginner, but maybe something to do with the max current that the battery can supply to the motor? Or if there is any other hardware that is changed as part of the wiring or connection to the battery that would restrict max torque?

Thanks for that info. Good to know!

 

[Bsqr]

The other part of this whole thread that I find a bit confusing is that you talk about how your wife is finding it difficult with the rise and it is less poweful than the other bike, but you're also saying you are only testing with eco? surely the point is that eco gives little assistance - why aren't you testing in trail or boost. Also, it sounds like your wife is an experienced rider? Why is she struggling at all - after all the rise is only 8-10 lbs more than a normal trail bike, and the power assistance from eco would instantly mitigate that and way more. Is it just she is used to the more powerful bike and was expecting the rise to match it?

I guess "struggling" wasn't a very good description. She just says she works harder and is way more tired at the end of a ride with the Rise. If I were to guess, she typically rides 70% in ECO, 25% in Trail and 5% in BOOST. Since the bulk of her time is in ECO, for now I'm trying find ECO settings on the Rise that give her a similar feel to her current ECO setting with the BMC E8000. As I noted before, both bikes weigh virtually the same. I'm not trying to compare or alter overall maximum power/torque settings at this time. Hence the ECO focus. As others have noted the way EP8 RS's motor interacts with rider inputs may be so different from the E8000 that what I'm trying achieve might not be possible?

So it's not about a more powerful bike overall. It's about finding the right settings to get the Rise to match the BMC's feeling at lower motor outputs, where most of the riding time occurs. I know it's apples and oranges with a trail bike and a flat bar gravel bike, but it's what I got.

 

[jka]

They are never going to match or feel even remotely the same. They are two VERY different bikes...like you said, apples and oranges. A fully rigid gravel bike compared to a fairly long travel mountain bike is no comparison no matter the motor. The RS motor definitely has a different feel than a non RS motor. It really does tend to deliver power based on rider input. Just tell your wife that she's getting a better workout on the Rise and ride it and enjoy it for what it is. Don't try to make it feel the same because you never will. You'll always be chasing your tail and never catch it. Just my opinion.

 

[mark.ai]

As others have noted the way EP8 RS's motor interacts with rider inputs may be so different from the E8000 that what I'm trying achieve might not be possible?

If Trail mode on the Rise feels more powerful than Eco on the E8000, then you should be able to create a similar feeling Eco mode on the Rise - somewhere in between the default Eco and the default Trail settings. Just keep increasing the assist given in Eco until it feels right.

 

[aarfeldt]

She just says she works harder and is way more tired at the end of a ride with the Rise.

This is what the Rise is all about.....
But....you can modify the individual settings pr mode, so you have the exact power and acceleration you need.
I think you need to play with the settings....within the limitations.
It's actually quite responsive....but you need to understand the software and set your own values.

 

[Mikerb]

The Rise in common with every other EMTB has both torque and cadence sensors...........that is, sensors that measure the amount of rider torque input and crank cadence. The software that regulates the amount of current fed to the electric motor can be configured to take account of each of those parameters with varying priority. That software algorithm can be set differently for each mode. All of that is then regulated by the torque curve of the electric motor. It is therefore not possible to second guess how the software programmer designed the algorithm although you get a feel for it merely by riding the bike and understanding how to get the best response from the motor. I think by definition those software designers treat ECO as a "get you home" mode for when there is little battery capacity left.............probably even more so when the bike has a small capacity battery by design. I have never ridden a Shimano powered bike but have done a lot of riding with Brose and Bosch motors. Despite them both being rated very much the same ( 85nm v 90nm) the power deliery in different modes on each is very different but can be made to feel more similar if you use a higher cadence with the Bosch that you would with the Brose for the same type of trail. The same Bosch motor with the same 85nm rating "feels" very different on my long travel Enduro bike compared to my Wife's hardtail Cube Access due to the massive difference in pedal efficiency, tyres and bike weight.

 

[sorcerer]

My wife has two e-bikes, one a BMC Alpenchallenge Amp Cross with the E8000 motor and just recently a Orbea Rise with the EP8 RS motor. The bikes weigh virtually the same at 37.10 lbs for Orbea and 38.0 lbs for the BMC. For whatever reason she's really struggling with the Rise and says the BMC provides a lot more assist when comparing performance in ECO. This is the case even with the following (similar) settings.

Using ST Unlocker I have both bikes setup pretty similarly for ECO.
Rise EP8 RS - 100%, 34Nm max, 300W max
BMC E8000 - 90%, 34Nm max, 500W max

With the BMC E8000 the max wattage for all modes is 500W and can't be changed (with ST Unlocker). With the Rise EP8 RS the default wattage for ECO is 150W and can be changed. I guess my next step will be to bump the 300W to 400W or 500W, but I actually have no idea if the 300W is realistically a limiting factor. For all I know, you would need a cadence of 150 @ 34Nm to get to 300W?

So my big question is, as I continue to tweak settings, can I set the Rise EP8 RS motor max Nm and max wattage to the same levels as an EP8 motor? I know the EP8 is 85Nm max; does anybody know what the default max wattage limit is set for on the EP8?

Additionally, I'm having a difficult time understanding how the riders riding characteristics affect the way the EP8 RS delivers power vs E8000. This probably deserves a separate thread in itself, but if there's a quick and easy explanation for the differences I would welcome it. I'm not actually riding the bikes myself so it can be a little bit like throwing darts.

I realize that as I tweak things higher and higher the Rise is going to consume more & more battery. That's an issue I'll deal with separately. Her range is really not bad at all, but perhaps a battery extender is in the future.

ECO on EP8 is unnecessarily progressive. I feel like I have Trail 1, Trail 2 and Boost modes. I go flat and long climb in ECO and engine support sometimes drops to 10-15% at 80-90 cadence, it does not matter the settings in E-tube. on E8000 was ECO better programmed.

 

[Evan]

The motor us just a normal EP8, but the STUnlocker must be the payed version, to change settings (30€).
/if/ you do it, remember to change the max power to 500watt (eco/trail/boost), otherwise the change is minimal.

You can also change region to US, and wheel size to get 42km/h max speed with assistance, if needed.

Is it possible to derestrict speed completely? Or only change to US? I guess you select smallest wheel size (on a 29 inch wheel) to increase to 42km/h vs the US 32 Km/h limit?