Old, Not Obsolete!!!

[Neeko DeVinchi]

So after watching Terminator Genisys (I know I know, not the best terminator movie) the T800 came out with a classic line "I'm old, not obsolete". This made me think about all the numerous emtb's from 2-3 years old.
I wont lie to you all, I'm still rocking my Levo Comp 2018 which is still flying through the trails like a champ and believe me, the bike is used (over 2000miles on the clock).
I appreciate that my experience is not the same as a lot of riders and I might be jinxing myself. However, comment below whether you're still rocking an older emtb out on the trails.
Yes, yes, I have no doubt that newer emtb's are somewhat better and most of you will comment on the warranty period vs longevity but I guess some platforms can sometimes stand the testomate of time ?

 

[Barbara_Reed]

Yes, indeed. I do wonder though, what you and others do with the old bike when you eventually upgrade? Are many of you packrats (I know I am) or do you sell the old bike or give it away? I've passed a couple of manual bikes to friends but with an ebike there is an issue of tired batteries to consider. Also I have one bike that I just like too much and have done so much touring with to even consider getting rid of. Your thoughts?

 

[The Hodge]

Not as such ..but its still there if I need to ( albeit gifted to my 18 Yr old son ) ..
With regard to my old bikes ..either gifted to family members or close friends ..my Dad (82yrs young ) still has and rides my Gary Fisher Big Sur..

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Yes, indeed. I do wonder though, what you and others do with the old bike when you eventually upgrade? Are many of you packrats (I know I am) or do you sell the old bike or give it away? I've passed a couple of manual bikes to friends but with an ebike there is an issue of tired batteries to consider. Also I have one bike that I just like too much and have done so much touring with to even consider getting rid of. Your thoughts?

I guess it depends Barbara. Granted, a lot of riders will try and support their respective communities by donating to charities to promote riding. Others (who treat their bikes like an investment) will simply recycle their funds into newer bikes.
With that being said, I suspect that 2021 will be the year that riders will start to future proof any bike he/she buys.

 

[R120]

I don't think that that some of the "older" bikes are actually discernibly worse than the newer ones. Yes if you compare an early emtb to a current one there is a big difference in the technology, but I would say outside of the differences between the Bosch Generation 3 and 4 over the last couple of years its fairly incremental. In particular if you have an e8000 bike i see little benefit in going for an EP8 just for the sake of it.

However for me the measure of a bike is how fun and capable it is to ride, and that overrules all other factors. I have stuck with my 2018 Vitus because its still the most fun EMTB I have tried, and I have tried a lot! The geometry is still up to date, I have upgraded numerous components (wheels and seat post are the only original parts left on it) but all in the bike owes me less than what many 2021 lower spec bikes would cost, and it weighs in at 22kg, which is a lot less than many of the newer full power bikes.

The main advance in the last 2/3 years is more to do with aesthetics and tidying up the bikes. The move to bigger batteries whilst great, has also meant heavier bikes.

If I look at the 2021 Vitus it is 3kg heavier than mine, yes it has a slightly more powerful motor , which out on the trails in the real world will make zero difference to me, and whilst it has a bigger battery, since it weighs more and has a hungrier motor the real world range difference isn't much. Because it weighs more and has a longer battery, the weight distribution is worse than the old model, meaning its less nimble and has a heavier front end.

So all in all my 2018 E-Sommett is still the best EMTB for me, even with all the newer options out there.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I don't think that that some of the "older" bikes are actually discernibly worse than the newer ones. Yes if you compare an early emtb to a current one there is a big difference in the technology, but I would say outside of the differences between the Bosch Generation 3 and 4 over the last couple of years its fairly incremental. In particular if you have an e8000 bike i see little benefit in going for an EP8 just for the sake of it.

However for me the measure of a bike is how fun and capable it is to ride, and that overrules all other factors. I have stuck with my 2018 Vitus because its still the most fun EMTB I have tried, and I have tried a lot! The geometry is still up to date, I have upgraded numerous components (wheels and seat post are the only original parts left on it) but all in the bike owes me less than what many 2021 lower spec bikes would cost, and it weighs in at 22kg, which is a lot less than many of the newer full power bikes.

The main advance in the last 2/3 years is more to do with aesthetics and tidying up the bikes. The move to bigger batteries whilst great, has also meant heavier bikes.

If I look at the 2021 Vitus it is 3kg heavier than mine, yes it has a slightly more powerful motor , which out on the trails in the real world will make zero difference to me, and whilst it has a bigger battery, since it weighs more and has a hungrier motor the real world range difference isn't much. Because it weighs more and has a longer battery, the weight distribution is worse than the old model, meaning its less nimble and has a heavier front end.

So all in all my 2018 E-Sommett is still the best EMTB for me, even with all the newer options out there.

View attachment 50772

Rock on R120. I remember Rob's vid about the Vitus E Sommet and it was a contender to buy when I was looking.
I wholeheartedly agree, the fun factor should be factored.

 

[maynard]

I don't think that that some of the "older" bikes are actually discernibly worse than the newer ones. Yes if you compare an early emtb to a current one there is a big difference in the technology, but I would say outside of the differences between the Bosch Generation 3 and 4 over the last couple of years its fairly incremental. In particular if you have an e8000 bike i see little benefit in going for an EP8 just for the sake of it.

However for me the measure of a bike is how fun and capable it is to ride, and that overrules all other factors. I have stuck with my 2018 Vitus because its still the most fun EMTB I have tried, and I have tried a lot! The geometry is still up to date, I have upgraded numerous components (wheels and seat post are the only original parts left on it) but all in the bike owes me less than what many 2021 lower spec bikes would cost, and it weighs in at 22kg, which is a lot less than many of the newer full power bikes.

The main advance in the last 2/3 years is more to do with aesthetics and tidying up the bikes. The move to bigger batteries whilst great, has also meant heavier bikes.

If I look at the 2021 Vitus it is 3kg heavier than mine, yes it has a slightly more powerful motor , which out on the trails in the real world will make zero difference to me, and whilst it has a bigger battery, since it weighs more and has a hungrier motor the real world range difference isn't much. Because it weighs more and has a longer battery, the weight distribution is worse than the old model, meaning its less nimble and has a heavier front end.

So all in all my 2018 E-Sommett is still the best EMTB for me, even with all the newer options out there.

View attachment 50772

Here is a perfect example of newer ain't better . Sic bike . I also think the styling of these and some of the merida 160s look awesome. Big fan . Eventually I'll grab a second hand one for my bro .

 

[Clubby]

Market is still pretty new, so not many used bikes coming up for sale compared to normal bikes. COVID shortages also keeping prices pretty buoyant. Can see used prices dropping as early adopters start to upgrade and more about.

Like others have said, it’s just been a case of refinement up til now. Biggest jump is maybe hidden in the software. Way my gen 4 Bosch puts power down in EMTB is really impressive compared to mates older Shimano. Companies also redistributing weight for better handling etc. Going to take a big jump in battery tech for next leap.
Can see more and more companies going down the Levo SL route to tap into the e-phobic market.


Only thing I’d change about mine is to shift a bit of weight, but only going to start that once things start to wear out.

 

[steve_sordy]

Isn't it odd when we refer to older bikes as ones that were new in 2018. FFS!

I acknowledge the views by some that older can sometimes mean better. I would struggle to find a bike that can match the range and weight of my current bike. Focus Jam2 9.6 NINE (carbon 29er). Even with its extra TEC battery it is still lighter than many bikes in this year's offerings that have smaller batteries.

Of course what will do me in, is when (not if) the motor fails and/or the battery's range falls below sensible. Then what should I do? Spend money on a new motor (if available) new battery (ditto), restoring the bike to its former glory, but probably still worth less than what I have just spent. It's all hypothetical until I'm actually faced with it. But it will certainly be a very much cheaper option than buying a new one!

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I've got to give props to Rob Warner. Knowing that he could use his new Vitus E Sommet, he still opted to use his older version.
Rock on Rob Warner ?

 

[Zimmerframe]

My main issue is that picture after picture @R120 fails to repair his garage doors ..

but @Neeko DeVinchi the actual rideable changes for 90% of us is pretty minimal. Yes, they look better, yes they have better "specs", but in day to day riding the differences are relatively minor when you compare last years "dogs nads" to this years "dogs nads" .. they're still ball park (pun intended) dogs nads.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

[/QUOTE]
I thought the new Vitus used the new shimano motor (I could be mistaken)?
But you do raise a point in terms of geometry. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"

 

[Zimmerframe]

I thought the new Vitus used the new shimano motor (I could be mistaken)?
But you do raise a point in terms of geometry. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it"
[/QUOTE]
It's a ground up bike. If you don't change it .... like the year before - everyone complains you've not updated it .

It doesn't change the fact that in all things in life there will be a few classics which are potentially better (depending what you want) which are better than their replacements.

 

[Zimmerframe]

For people like @R120 - just to use as an example ..

It makes it really difficult to "more forward" .. most people who have bought e-bikes are "forward embracing" of technology.

To move forward from there you want same weight or less, more power, larger battery. It literally does not exist !

You have to accept more weight but different weight placement and maybe better handling .... maybe ...

Ideally you'd just upgrade the battery, but supply is difficult ..

And maybe .. change motor - but that's not available off the shelf ..

In 10 years time things might be very different .. but for now .. we are where we are and you make the most of the geometry maze the best you can.

What was amazing 2 years ago, is no less amazing than it was then.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

For people like @R120 - just to use as an example ..

It makes it really difficult to "more forward" .. most people who have bought e-bikes are "forward embracing" of technology.

To move forward from there you want same weight or less, more power, larger battery. It literally does not exist !

You have to accept more weight but different weight placement and maybe better handling .... maybe ...

Ideally you'd just upgrade the battery, but supply is difficult ..

And maybe .. change motor - but that's not available off the shelf ..

In 10 years time things might be very different .. but for now .. we are where we are and you make the most of the geometry maze the best you can.

What was amazing 2 years ago, is no less amazing than it was then.

True that Zimmerframe. Still digging my 2018 Levo Comp and Levo HT & 2019 Kenevo Expert.
I dare say they are just as capable as their newest iterations (in my opinion).

 

[R120]

Firstly @Zimmerframe how many times do I have to tell you those aren’t my garage doors, just the doors to some forgotten outbuilding on my private Surrey Alps estate.

Secondly Rob Warner used his old bike in that vid as he has said he will never ride the new custom one as he doesn’t want to damage it, and he’s still waiting for a standard one to come from Vitus.

For me it’s a simple equation, I love my bike, have ridden a lot of the newer stuff, and there isn’t anything that rides better for me that I have tried.

I have spent a decent amount of time on some 2020 Bosch bikes, and they are a bit more powerful, but not in any way that makes any sort of difference to how or where I ride.

For me an EMTB is a way to ride more in a limited timeframe, and also a way to expedite going uphill to get to the fun stuff going downhill.

As such how the bike handles on the trails, and descends, is the only thing I am interested in - any EMTB from 2017 onwards will get you up a hill, but it’s still a fairly small number that shine on the way back down.

I am tempted by the Orbea Rise, but really I am happy to carry on with my current bikes until there is another step shift in the tech.

 

[Dee Scee]

i have my 2017 levo set up the way i like it and i'm scheming to keep it going for a long time.

 

[Frank_Denmark]

My Levo is from 2018 with the silent 90 nm 1.3 motor.
Every week I ride with mates on new bikes with Bosch gen 4 og EP8's
My 2018 motor is so silent, that I get comments on almost every ride.
Got 8,000 km on the clock still going strong.

I have tried 4-5 new bikes - but always revert to my "old" Levo.
At 22,4 kg it's still not that heavy.

The Levo was awarded the best eMTB back in 2018 - and maybe it's still among the better bikes...

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

My Levo is from 2018 with the silent 90 nm 1.3 motor.
Every week I ride with mates on new bikes with Bosch gen 4 og EP8's
My 2018 motor is so silent, that I get comments on almost every ride.
Got 8,000 km on the clock still going strong.

I have tried 4-5 new bikes - but always revert to my "old" Levo.
At 22,4 kg it's still not that heavy.

The Levo was awarded the best eMTB back in 2018 - and maybe it's still among the better bikes...

View attachment 53128

Nice?

 

[Zimmerframe]

How could he? He can’t open it with out killing his door eating vine collection.
That better be a grape vine for making wine.

I do like how long and slack that bike looks.

It's just getting new bearings, a 630wh battery and has new pretty much everything else . I think he'd do you a deal for an E-Sommet SL R120 Special edition for no more than £12,000 - then he can get a man in to move his vineyard.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

So after watching Terminator Genisys (I know I know, not the best terminator movie) the T800 came out with a classic line "I'm old, not obsolete". This made me think about all the numerous emtb's from 2-3 years old...

So a two to three year old bike is old and obsolete... hmmm.

I was born in 1958, and as many have told me, mine is a generation that has seen a great deal of technological changes at break neck speed. As a child, I grew up listening to AM radio mono (the size of a suitcase), then FM stereo, played 45 records, then long play 33s, to reel to reel tape decks, 8-track cartridges, to cassette tapes, to CDs, to MP3s, to cloud based subscriptions on my wafer thin smart phone... that's just in the realm of music. I would like to think that I know what obsolete looks like. In contrast my dad grew up in a society that bought automobiles in view of handing it down to their children... if he were still alive, he wouldn't understand the concept of social engineering that accepts the notion of yearly artificial obsolescence.

Surely as a society we are aware by now that we are deliberately being "farmed" or cultivated into perpetual consumers?

Well you see, I've got this ancient eBike... circa 2019... and it's got archaic 27.5" wheels... with 2.6 tyres that are totally dysfunctional because it's got tubes in it.... crumbs! Oh and the battery, I rode 45 kms and it lost two bars of charge - shocking!

Consumerist sheep we are. ? All together now... baaa, baaa...

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

So a two to three year old bike is old and obsolete... hmmm.

I was born in 1958, and as many have told me, mine is a generation that has seen a great deal of technological changes at break neck speed. As a child, I grew up listening to AM radio mono (the size of a suitcase), then FM stereo, played 45 records, then long play 33s, to reel to reel tape decks, 8-track cartridges, to cassette tapes, to CDs, to MP3s, to cloud based subscriptions on my wafer thin smart phone... that's just in the realm of music. I would like to think that I know what obsolete looks like. In contrast my dad grew up in a society that bought automobiles in view of handing it down to their children... if he were still alive, he wouldn't understand the concept of social engineering that accepts the notion of yearly artificial obsolescence.

Surely as a society we are aware by now that we are deliberately being "farmed" or cultivated into perpetual consumers?

Well you see, I've got this ancient eBike... circa 2019... and it's got archaic 27.5" wheels... with 2.6 tyres that are totally dysfunctional because it's got tubes in it.... crumbs! Oh and the battery, I rode 45 kms and it lost two bars of charge - shocking!

Consumerist sheep we are. ? All together now... baaa, baaa...

Lol. GrandPaBrogan, you made your point. In fact, their are some riders I know who still insist that 26" wheels aren't dead and steal frames are the best.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Lol. GrandPaBrogan, you made your point. In fact, their are some riders I know who still insist that 26" wheels aren't dead and steal frames are the best.

Haha, steel is REAL!

You see, I grew up with the T101 which was later called the T800. It's exactly the same product which has just been rebadged so that the audience won't loose their minds because they can't bear to watch the movie sequel with a product from 'last year's' catalogue.

Now everyone considers the newer T1000 liquid metal models as far superior, but I disagree because the geometry is too long, too slack, and it leaks sealant all over the place. Besides, the T1000 can't say 'hasta lavista, baby!" as well as the T800 can.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

With the arrival of the new Levo Gen3 (and soon the Kenevo Prime), let us look back on how it all began.

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

One man's trash is another man's treasure!!
Say hello to the 2nd Kenevo.
Bad news: I'm not eligible to put a warranty claim as the second owner if anything goes wrong.
GOOD NEWS ?: The bike has no warranty so it's open mods which I wouldn't do on my 1st Kenevo (plus I've got a spare motor just in case).
Fun fact, going 200mm travel on the front didn't invalidate my warranty on Kenevo No.1
But I'm sure going 29er and running this with a Fox x2 will ?

 

[Mike D.]

"In particular if you have an e8000 bike i see little benefit in going for an EP8 just for the sake of it."

WHAT? WHAT? SPEAK UP!! ?

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

I might be the only one rocking a 2018 Levo but this thing still brings a smile to my face ?

Money worth spent 2 years ago.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I suspect your one of many thousands still rocking a 2018 Levo !

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Let this be a reminder for those who question the longevity of ebikes.
If you're prepared to spend, you're prepared to maintain and tend (no matter the budget).
Mechanical components may wear and consumable components may tear.

But as far as I'm concerned, my 2018 Levo may be old. But it's far from obsolete.

Wrap up everyone, the weather's getting colder

 

[2WheelsNot4]

3 Ebikes, thats just plain greedy. Shouldn't be allowed, bah humbug....

Mind you it is Surrey.