Article Next Generation: Forestal Siryon

[Fivetones]

How long have you had out of your E8000 motor so far bro?
is it a month already?

Do we really know how seriously Shimano take this side of the business though? We’ll get an indication when they release the EP-8 maybe. They still haven’t addressed the road/gravel (and now “SL”?) market either (EP-9?).

 

[Fx1]

How long have you had out of your E8000 motor so far bro?
is it a month already?

Its had 2 decent rides.

Its clear that the limit is the 15.6mph. It doesnt need any more power and the battery lasts plenty long enough that I'd never want the weight of 700ah.

The only logical place these are going now is weight saving and smaller batteries whilst pulling less power draw.

 

[EMTBehave]

The Aryon, from a future of transportation/technology perspective not EMTB, might have helped secure that investment. You could imagine the elevator pitch. Like tech companies, Forestal talk is big and the delivery none existent at the start. Typically it’s the US not Europe sees this kind of model of business.

All this is massive speculation though and I‘m not sure they’ll get many people to bite at the pre-order just yet.

This reminds me of the modern Kickstarter projects... a lot of hype and marketing to draw people in.

The bike won't even be out until October so I think it's a little premature to have a video dedicated to raving about it. For all we know it could be extremely disappointing and unreliable when released.

 

[Gary]

Do we really know how seriously Shimano take this side of the business though?

I don't think it's really about them taking anything seriously (or not).
Shimano has pretty much stuck with 4 year rotation when launching each new updated groupset level for years now. and with the E6000/7000 and 8000 ranges they still have most bases covered. I think folk here get too carried away and can't see the bigger picture because they're so wrapped up in EBIKES R AWESOMEness to even see it.
also have a think about just how many pricepoints, cycling styles, levels etc. shimano components do actually cover.
in the grand scheme of it premium high tech parts like Di2 and Ebike motors are still a pretty small share in the shear volume of product Shimano shift year on year..

I don't usually comment too often in Rob's main page article threads as I have a habit of being easily derailled so I'll STFU now. It's not like this bike even interests me

 

[Fivetones]

I don't think it's really about them taking anything seriously (or not).
Shimano has pretty much stuck with 4 year rotation when launching each new updated groupset level for years now. and with the E6000/7000 and 8000 ranges they still have most bases covered. I think folk here get too carried away and can't see the bigger picture because they're so wrapped up in EBIKES R AWESOMEness to even see it.
also have a think about just how many pricepoints, cycling styles, levels etc. shimano components do actually cover.
in the grand scheme of it premium high tech parts like Di2 and Ebike motors are still a pretty small share in the shear volume of product Shimano shift year on year..

I don't usually comment too often in Rob's main page article threads as I have a habit of being easily derailled so I'll STFU now. It's not like this bike even interests me

By seriously the context I mean is in pure investment of cash. Shimano aren’t currently striking me as ambitious in this regard given the potential size of the pedelec market. Particularly in warmer climes.

 

[R120]

Shimano are massive in the Pedlec market, EMTB's are a very small portion of the overall Pedelec market. The E6000 system is in a ton of bikes

On all the best products I have used in terms of being brilliant at the purpose it was designed for, is the Shimano DI2 Nexus hub gear system, which is designed to be used with Pedelecs, and can be fully integrated into both Shimano and Bosch motor systems - the ease of use on a hybrid peddle designed for getting from a-b with minimum of fuss is fully nailed down, and all you need to do is lube the chain once in a while. We have it on a bergamot and it can be set to an automatic mode in conjunction with the Bosch EMTB mode of the motor, just turn on the bike and go ride.

Really to see how good a pedelc can be, the hybrid/touring bikes are where its at in terms of development to see how well these bikes can work as systems. EMTB's are still in early days, and the challenge of making a bike ride the trails well and handle the abuse of mountain biking combined with the extra stress the motor takes from far more brutal force being put through the cranks and into the motor bearings.

A British winter would usually see me replacing my BB once a year, the fact that my E8000 made it through 2 winters before blowing up, whilst annoying, is pretty amazing given the abuse it has taken and its a first gen product.

Personally I thin it would be great if the "BB" of the motors was a serviceable/replacable part.

 

[MattyB]

Who wants to buy a 170mm coil bike with 60nm and 17kg

When you can buy a 12 grand 30nm Levo SL with 150mm and own brand parts.

These light powerful motors are going to be game changing in the next few years.

Unfortunately there is only so far you can go with reducing the weight of a motor whislt also having a usable amount of power. Ultimately heat still has to be dissipated, and we still want it to be well sealed for reliability. What would really revolutionise things would be a step in battery tech, but I still can't see that happening in ebikes for at least 3-4 years (even if there was one in the coming months it would be swallowed up by automotive and industrial uses before products like ebikes got a look in).

 

[Fivetones]

Unfortunately there is only so far you can go with reducing the weight of a motor whislt also having a usable amount of power. Ultimately heat still has to be dissipated, and we still want it to be well sealed for reliability. Wat would really revolutionise things would be a step in battery tech, but I still can't see that happening in ebikes for at least 3-4 years (even if there was one in the coming months it would be swallowed up by automotive and industrial uses before products like ebikes got a look in).

For the moment the industry is just innovating on packaging and trade offs within that. That’s ok for now as everyone does that when building their own bike anyway. It’s nice to not have every bike now making the same trade offs.

I do find the weight claim hard to believe though. Especially as DVO kit (inc. coil!) hasn’t so far been featherweight.

 

[Fx1]

They could easily make it lighter without the pointless coil shock etc.

I'm sure that bafang motor will end up in a more known brand at some point next year.

 

[Gary]

A coil shock is now pointless in the mountains of Andora when half the Ebikers in Swinley seem to be craving them?
Things have certainly escalated here

 

[Fx1]

A coil shock is now pointless in the mountains of Andora when half the Ebikers in Swinley seem to be craving them?
Things have certainly escalated here

It's just a fad. 9/10 wouldnt even know why they would want one other than they look cool.

Personally I cant be bothered with the fixed spring given my weight can fluctuate 10kg over a year depending on how many holidays I go on!

 

[Gary]

Yeah, cause fucking around with a shock pump and re-setting sag height after every big meal is waaaay less greif than undoing 2 bolts, winding a threaded collar and swapping a springa couple of times a year.

Air and coil both have their metitsand downsides mate.
Not all of us are clueless fashion victims with bottomless pockets.

Now where did I put my gucci manbag?

 

[Fivetones]

Air and coil both have their metitsand downsides mate.
Not all of us are clueless fashion victims with bottomless pockets.

Now where did I put my gucci manbag?

I wouldn’t knock us clueless fashion victims. We‘re always happy to pay for a good mechanic at some point ?

 

[Fx1]

Yeah, cause fucking around with a shock pump and re-setting sag height after every big meal is waaaay less greif than undoing 2 bolts, winding a threaded collar and swapping a springa couple of times a year.

Air and coil both have their metitsand downsides mate.
Not all of us are clueless fashion victims with bottomless pockets.

Now where did I put my gucci manbag?

No doubt.

But the reality for most .....

 

[R120]

Coils are so 2019, its all about the Megneg now

 

[Slowroller]

They could easily make it lighter without the pointless coil shock etc.

I'm sure that bafang motor will end up in a more known brand at some point next year.

Bafang is the largest ebike motor company in China, which is the largest market in the world. Besides making hub motors, they have been building middrives that are far too powerful for the EU for years, and overbuilt. From what I've seen, there are less problems with them than with the usual suspects for 250w motors, but it's an apples and oranges situation. They are huge in the DIY market in the US, and they have a nice 1000w middrive that is starting to be seen around here. 3000 watt peak lol.

They've been making various OEM spec 250-1000w middrives for a few years, this is probably what they started with for the Forestal motor. Bafang enters the e-road market with new M800 motor

 

[Mabman]

Good general info from Slowroller about Bafang. They for sure are the market leader here in the US with their BBS01/2 kit mid drives but while they have proven somewhat reliable they are cadence PAS and to my mind worthless for mtb use.

The 1000w, with 3000w capability, 150nm torque Ultra does have torque sensing PAS but it is a heavy beast and personally I don't find the need for that much available power for mtb use especially if you add in the extra weight and width of the system.

I have been tracking their M series integrated systems for a few years and excited about the prospects. Along with the M800 as seen here there are M500 and M600 versions that have shown up on a few semi major brands in the last year. Most notably on the American Flyer brand race bikes that they used last season for the eMTB WC races. Spy Shot: American Eagle eMTB with the new Bafang M500 motor | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine

Last year Luna(tic) based in CA introduced an M600 equipped carbon mtb for a decent price comparatively, X1 Enduro EBIKE There were some toothing problems and geo issues so I have as yet felt like they are ready for prime time as it is my experience that Bafang is not all that up on aftermarket support even though they have been dealing into our US market for years. The motors were supposed to be quiet but at least one person sent their X1 back due to it being too noisy whereas the one I track on a forum has never complained about that. Otherwise they seem to perform quite well in regards to their PAS and power output.

Not of interest to many but of great interest to me personally is that the M series have the ability to have a throttle. I find that feature just to handy to have on board as it doesn't add hardly any weight and is great for starting off in all situations until you get the PAS activated then simply release and for taking over the weight of the bike while off of it doing some brush whacking or getting it over obstacles too much for me to ride, especially uphill.

In the course of a 30 mile ride I reckon I use the throttle for less than 100', unless like yesterday exploring a grown over elk trail here and contending with thick brush, I rarely think to use it while actually riding the bike. Instead I prefer to keep the PAS active on my system by dragging the rear brake slightly and keeping pressure on the pedals while slowing or stalling my cranks to avoid hitting them on stuff.

 

[Fivetones]

Covered on EMBN

Groundbreaking E Bike From Forestal & Cedric Gracia Interview | The EMBN Show Ep. 117

 

[Eduardoramundo]

How does the 51v 350wh battery compare to the 36v 700wh Levo battery overall?

 

[Fx1]

How does the 51v 350wh battery compare to the 36v 700wh Levo battery overall?

51v system is more efficient. Less heat and potentially higher draw rate. They use more cells to get higher voltage. 36v can use less cells for larger energy capacity in a given space.

It's possible that the smaller motor needs more voltage to get the higher power out of it.

 

[Stray cat]

Forestal is a powerful company. There’s Russian capital behind.

 

[Fivetones]

Forestal is a powerful company. There’s Russian capital behind.

That makes some sense. I’d actually taken an educated guess that this was backed by the Saudis given their love of technology and electric car companies like Tesla. Mind you both the Russians and Saudis need to transition from fossil fuels in a relatively short period of time (20 years).

 

[MattyB]

How does the 51v 350wh battery compare to the 36v 700wh Levo battery overall?

Well fundamentally it means the Forestal pack has half the available energy of the Levo. Capacity in Wh = Pack Voltage X Capacity in Ah. That means the Forestal pack has a much lower capacity in Ah (~6.85Ah) than the Levo (~19.4Ah), but the higher voltage means the overall energy available is only 50% less.

51v system is more efficient. Less heat and potentially higher draw rate. They use more cells to get higher voltage. 36v can use less cells for larger energy capacity in a given space.

It's possible that the smaller motor needs more voltage to get the higher power out of it

Not sure all that is entirely accurate tbh. Assuming they have specced a lower Kv (Kv = unloaded RPM/Volt) motor because of the higher voltage pack, current draw will be less for the same output power not more. You are right that should make it more efficient though as less heat will be generated (reduced I2R losses). Some of that will be offset as brushless motors generally get less efficient as you lower the Kv, but I agree the overall drivetrain should be a smidegeon more efficient at 51V.

 

[RCDallas]

Well fundamentally it means the Forestal pack has half the available energy of the Levo. Capacity in Wh = Pack Voltage X Capacity in Ah. That means the Forestal pack has a much lower capacity in Ah (~6.85Ah) than the Levo (~19.4Ah), but the higher voltage means the overall energy available is only 50% less.

Not sure all that is entirely accurate tbh. Assuming they have specced a lower Kv (Kv = unloaded RPM/Volt) motor because of the higher voltage pack, current draw will be less for the same output power not more. You are right that should make it more efficient though as less heat will be generated (reduced I2R losses) which you. Some of that will be offset as brushless motors generally get less efficient as you lower the Kv, but I agree the overall drivetrain should be a smidegeon more efficient at 51V.

Not so sure they are using a much lower Kv motor as the motor noise indicates a higher frequency...gearing could negate the need for a lower Kv due to higher battery voltage. 100% agree with the lower heat generated due to approximately 25% less current for a given power output. I2R

 

[d3ftone]

I wonder when the "pre-sale" is going to end. It'd be nice to at least see a first-ride review before committing that amount of money.

 

[d3ftone]

...just waiting for the dollar to get much stronger or the euro to get much weaker ?

...seems to be going the opposite direction...

 

[R120]

I am really interested in the bike, but no way I would spend that kind of money without seeing plenty of reviews first, and ideally trying one out.

Next year I will definitely get a new bike, leaning towards a lightweight/less assistance option at the moment, the forestal ticks the boxes of what I want, but I also really like the Mahle system in the Levo SL, and if Spesh where to Pring out an SL Evo or similar with slacker geo I would probably go for that than take a punt on the Forestal, but also interested to see what Shimano do as I suspect they might launch more motors than just the E8000 replacement.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Still proposing October delivery for these, but no other information seems to be about.

 

[aarfeldt]

First batch is sold out - so if I pre-order today, delivery will be nov-dec 2020.
Don't know how many bikes is in the "first batch" ....

Maybe the trail version Cyon is more fitted to me and my trails....must wait and see when it's announced.

 

[aarfeldt]

Maybe the trail version Cyon is more fitted to me and my trails....must wait and see when it's announced.

Trail eMTB "Cyon" is expected early 2021.
Might be even lighter than Siryon....