Levo Gen 3 New Turbo Levo. Scary handling in the parking lot?

[NCMike]

So far, I’m absolutely LOVING this bike! But I do have an issue. With only two rides on my 2022 Turbo Levo Expert (black), I’ve noticed an issue with the handling I‘ve never had on my 2017 Spec Camber Pro. On both rides, during slow turns in mostly loose over hard pack type surface, the front wheel will suddenly “overturn“ and slide out. On my last ride, I rode hard and fast for over two hours, loving the handling , then nearly wiped out in the parking lot when this again happened. I love the bike at speed, but slow in the gravel(ish) parking lot, not so much! Is this just a handling characteristic of a raked out bike I’ll just need to get used? Anyone else ever noticed this tendency? Besides “ Make bigger turns”, anyone have any helpful insight they could share?

 

[Sofaboy73]

The mullet set up on a fairly slack bike and the stock height of the bars does tend to make the front wheel ‘flop’ a little and oversteer. Never really noticed it much actually on the trails though. I guess you get used to it and automatically account for it fairly quickly and you can’t get the bike through some tight twisty techy stuff without any issues. Perhaps consciously weight the front wheel more and perhaps drop a few psi on the front tyre?

 

[George_KSL]

Perhaps consciously weight the front wheel

You ought to do this on every modern bike unless downsized (and very skilled with rear driving, like Joe Barnes, but that style is niche today).
It's very easy to wash-out front wheel before getting accustomed to central position. Modern bikes benefit from more rigorously practiced attack position.
Or you can steepen the head angle.

Early into low/long/slack detractors spoke of bikes that easily ride instead of you, giving false sense of skill. But imho they equally force better riding habits. Put those elbows and head above stem like BMX pro :- ).

 

[etoni]

I can not confirm, this bike runs great in the curves. maybe you had a 170mm fork on it or too high stack, handlebars or spacer....

 

[NCMike]

Thank you all for the comments. I’ve thought about them, looked at the bike, and have a couple of thoughts. As for weighting the wheel, that is certainly important for proper cornering and since I didn’t notice this when I was “in” the trails, I think I am doing so and likely why I didn’t notice it riding hard. I had the problem when least expecting it, like in the parking lot, so my guess is I was sitting up on the seat and not in a forward position, so yes, I probably didn’t have much weight on the front tire. Looking at my O rings, I also noticed I was using all my rear shock travel, but no where near enough of the front wheel travel. Sitting on the seat in a more upright position, I’ll bet my rear end was sagging but I’m probably not getting enough front end sag. That would certainly slacken out the front end further, acting like I had a longer travel fork, exacerbating the “flop” sofaboy73 mentioned. The bike was set up by the dealer, so I hadn’t checked my measurements. I’ll be dropping some fork pressure and checking sag. I also think after a few more rides, I’ll try the 1deg shim and steepen the head angle to see what it feels like.
Thanks again for all the comments. I look forward to taking this knowledge into my next ride. After I get over ANOTHER case of COVID that is

 

[Alexbn921]

Lower your bars and put more air in the shock

 

[Mikerb]

I am going to disagree to an extent with the suggestions above!! You describe the issue as oversteer or front wheel tuck when turning quite sharply....but only when you are going slow. Speed is the primary difference between those circumstances compared to when you are riding the trails where you experience no such problem.

If you are manoevring at slow speed you do not need to weight the front wheel to maintain grip since the bike has little forward momentum ...BUT...you do need to use you body to balance the turn, and you cannot do that sat on the saddle.

To correct that, all you need to do is stand on the pedals. Your weight will then be central and more importantly you will naturally use your hips to control the turn. It is also best in those circumstances to either be in a low power mode, or if not to control the power by covering the brakes, if indeed you need to pedal at all in the turn.

 

[daCaTindaHaT]

On the mullet set up do you ride the bike centered, or do you need to be conscious of weighting the front wheel in tight turns? I’m hoping to do a test ride this week on the alloy comp, but I don’t know the availability.

Due to an accident that temporarily killed me I’ve been off bikes for 5 year. I’ll be starting over a bit.

 

[NCMike]

I am going to disagree to an extent with the suggestions above!! You describe the issue as oversteer or front wheel tuck when turning quite sharply....but only when you are going slow. Speed is the primary difference between those circumstances compared to when you are riding the trails where you experience no such problem.

If you are manoevring at slow speed you do not need to weight the front wheel to maintain grip since the bike has little forward momentum ...BUT...you do need to use you body to balance the turn, and you cannot do that sat on the saddle.

To correct that, all you need to do is stand on the pedals. Your weight will then be central and more importantly you will naturally use your hips to control the turn. It is also best in those circumstances to either be in a low power mode, or if not to control the power by covering the brakes, if indeed you need to pedal at all in the turn.

Something else I’ll try, thank you!

 

[RebornRider]

I really suck at very low speed (almost track stand), very tight switchbacks, so I've been practicing on a figure-8 track that somebody made near my regular trail. Here's something I discovered about my '19 Turbo Levo front geometry on that track.

As I turn the handlebars, at first the fork wants to straighten itself out. If I let go of the bar (and didn't fall over!), the bike would stop turning and go straight ahead. But there's a transition point where the fork decides it wants to turn more rather than go straight. If I let go of the bar, the fork would turn as far as it could (my '19 frame has a fork bumper).

Said another way, when the front wheel begins to go around a corner, my arms must apply a torque to the handlebar in the direction of the turn. The bike wants to go straight. But when the turn reaches a certain threshold of sharpness, I must apply a torque to the handlebar opposite to the direction of the turn. The bike wants to turn sharper.

It may be that leaning plays a part in this, but remember that I'm going v e r y slow. So I don't think I'm leaning much.

I have only felt this effect on the super slow, super tight turns on the figure-8 track, never on any single track.

 

[Mikerb]

On the mullet set up do you ride the bike centered, or do you need to be conscious of weighting the front wheel in tight turns? I’m hoping to do a test ride this week on the alloy comp, but I don’t know the availability.

Due to an accident that temporarily killed me I’ve been off bikes for 5 year. I’ll be starting over a bit.

A mullet set up potentially raises the front of the bike so if you stand over the bb on the pedals your weight may be biased slightly towards the rear whereas on a bike with matching wheels you should be pretty centred on the bike. So it may well be that you have to lean more forward over the stem to weigh the front more. That said there are a lot of variables in terms of bike geo, bar rise, stem stack and suspension set up so you really just need to learn what is best on any given bike....and perhaps take it steady until you are familiar with that bike.

 

[Mikerb]

I really suck at very low speed (almost track stand), very tight switchbacks, so I've been practicing on a figure-8 track that somebody made near my regular trail. Here's something I discovered about my '19 Turbo Levo front geometry on that track.

As I turn the handlebars, at first the fork wants to straighten itself out. If I let go of the bar (and didn't fall over!), the bike would stop turning and go straight ahead. But there's a transition point where the fork decides it wants to turn more rather than go straight. If I let go of the bar, the fork would turn as far as it could (my '19 frame has a fork bumper).

Said another way, when the front wheel begins to go around a corner, my arms must apply a torque to the handlebar in the direction of the turn. The bike wants to go straight. But when the turn reaches a certain threshold of sharpness, I must apply a torque to the handlebar opposite to the direction of the turn. The bike wants to turn sharper.

It may be that leaning plays a part in this, but remember that I'm going v e r y slow. So I don't think I'm leaning much.

I have only felt this effect on the super slow, super tight turns on the figure-8 track, never on any single track.

I know exactly that effect and I have experimented with my Whyte E180RS to see what works best to combat that. The bike is super stable and ploughs through anything but switchbacks and tight turns are not its forte especially on downhill runs or at slow speeds. On both it tends to "oversteer". Now my bike set up will not necessarilly translate to any other bike so my technique solution may not apply. I have Fox 38 Factory Forks and Fox factory Float X2 suspension, both are super plush with loads of progression. So for faster downhill scenarios it struck me that the fork would be fairly compressed and the total mass of the bike pushed forward over the front. The front tyre is an Assegai. It just seemed that I was getting too much grip at the front and my weight was not far enough back to push the back out and keep the bike axis straighter. Extending my arms and pushing my weight further back solved the problem (both before and after I am on the pedals with the seat slammed).

What you may take from this is that it seems to me to be about your weight balance on the bike front to back plus your shoulder/hip movement to balance the bike. How far forward and how far back will vary bike to bike...for me it was moving back. I also have an e160 RSX and it is completely different on that bike with no problems on tights switchbacks etc.

 

[NCMike]

I really suck at very low speed (almost track stand), very tight switchbacks, so I've been practicing on a figure-8 track that somebody made near my regular trail. Here's something I discovered about my '19 Turbo Levo front geometry on that track.

As I turn the handlebars, at first the fork wants to straighten itself out. If I let go of the bar (and didn't fall over!), the bike would stop turning and go straight ahead. But there's a transition point where the fork decides it wants to turn more rather than go straight. If I let go of the bar, the fork would turn as far as it could (my '19 frame has a fork bumper).

Said another way, when the front wheel begins to go around a corner, my arms must apply a torque to the handlebar in the direction of the turn. The bike wants to go straight. But when the turn reaches a certain threshold of sharpness, I must apply a torque to the handlebar opposite to the direction of the turn. The bike wants to turn sharper.

It may be that leaning plays a part in this, but remember that I'm going v e r y slow. So I don't think I'm leaning much.

I have only felt this effect on the super slow, super tight turns on the figure-8 track, never on any single track.

This sounds a lot like what I experienced. Since it does’t happen on my Camber, I wonder if I was just putting in “turn” input into the bars and wasn’t ready and didn’t react quick enough with “anti-turn” input when needed when the wheel “switched“ it‘s turning tendency, especially since I was done with the ride and just chilling on the way back to the truck.

 

[KnollyBro]

I can not confirm, this bike runs great in the curves. maybe you had a 170mm fork on it or too high stack, handlebars or spacer....

What difference would a 170mm fork make on slow speed steering?

 

[rod9301]

I really suck at very low speed (almost track stand), very tight switchbacks, so I've been practicing on a figure-8 track that somebody made near my regular trail. Here's something I discovered about my '19 Turbo Levo front geometry on that track.

As I turn the handlebars, at first the fork wants to straighten itself out. If I let go of the bar (and didn't fall over!), the bike would stop turning and go straight ahead. But there's a transition point where the fork decides it wants to turn more rather than go straight. If I let go of the bar, the fork would turn as far as it could (my '19 frame has a fork bumper).

Said another way, when the front wheel begins to go around a corner, my arms must apply a torque to the handlebar in the direction of the turn. The bike wants to go straight. But when the turn reaches a certain threshold of sharpness, I must apply a torque to the handlebar opposite to the direction of the turn. The bike wants to turn sharper.

It may be that leaning plays a part in this, but remember that I'm going v e r y slow. So I don't think I'm leaning much.

I have only felt this effect on the super slow, super tight turns on the figure-8 track, never on any single track.

Even or especially when doing a track stand, your weight had to be way on the outside, so yeah, leaning plays a big part

 

[rpr]

I just noticed the same thing on my Levo SL today (non-mullet). The front wheel just wanted to turn and slide, the bike plow forward, in slow (not so tight) turns on a crushed stone surface. Would like to know if you figure this out.

 

[skinipenem]

I just noticed the same thing on my Levo SL today (non-mullet). The front wheel just wanted to turn and slide, the bike plow forward, in slow (not so tight) turns on a crushed stone surface. Would like to know if you figure this out.

Unsure if I'm assessing your issue properly or not...

Slow almost standstill turns require lots of bike lean. Think mototrials. If not, your front wheel will push.

 

[RickBullotta]

Try to get comfortable being a bit more out over the front a bit more on a slack bike. The steeper seat tube angle helps with this when seated, but with the dropper down it's easy to "get into the back seat". Think if it more like the "attack position" on an off road motorcycle.

 

[Sofaboy73]

front wheel washing tends to be for one (or a combination) of the following reasons:
- poor body positioning / not weighting the front wheel sufficiently (bar height and stem length length will also impact this)
- poor braking technique (easy to go a little heavy on the front brake at the wrong time)
- wrong choice of tyre for the terrain
- tyres too hard / fork not getting into it's initial stroke easily enough

first few rides on my new levo i almost lost the front wheel a few times on loose over hard pack surfaces on steeper turns. played about with the tyre pressure but still has a few issues. eventual solution was stripping the air spring in the forks and getting rid of all the excess grease - no issues since and now have full confidence in the front end. forks also ride much better now overall

 

[Dago]

The Levo mullet is much more like a dirt bike motorcycle. Ya need to move around a bit to get proper traction. It makes for a much more dynamic and fun ride, actually.

 

[KTMJack]

Did you try changing the head-tube angle It comes with a adjustable headset cup That changes the rake

 

[Topolino]

Unsure if I'm assessing your issue properly or not...

Slow almost standstill turns require lots of bike lean. Think mototrials. If not, your front wheel will push.

Finally the correct answer The silly head angles on these things require lean to turn. I still find myself darting off into the undergrowth because of this.

 

[Utah Rider]

I think you already figured out the rear sag contributed. The other thing is probably too much air in the front tire. I broke my fibula from a front end wash out going up hill on a fast switch back. That was on a 17' Levo with a 3.0 front tire with too much air pressure. Fast forward to today, I have a 22' Mullet Levo. All I have to say is great handling after 400 miles. I've never at any time felt the front end wash out. My riding weight is around 210 lbs. I didn't think that I would like the 29 up front but it works. After having three other Levos and a Kenevo between me and the wife, this 22' has the least pedal strikes of them all.

 

[Ginsudan]

So far, I’m absolutely LOVING this bike! But I do have an issue. With only two rides on my 2022 Turbo Levo Expert (black), I’ve noticed an issue with the handling I‘ve never had on my 2017 Spec Camber Pro. On both rides, during slow turns in mostly loose over hard pack type surface, the front wheel will suddenly “overturn“ and slide out. On my last ride, I rode hard and fast for over two hours, loving the handling , then nearly wiped out in the parking lot when this again happened. I love the bike at speed, but slow in the gravel(ish) parking lot, not so much! Is this just a handling characteristic of a raked out bike I’ll just need to get used? Anyone else ever noticed this tendency? Besides “ Make bigger turns”, anyone have any helpful insight they could share?

I know what you mean. My previous ride was a 2013 Santa Cruz Tall Boy AL. The Levo is much more slack and raked out. It takes some getting used to for sure. Once you get some trail time you will love it. Also this bike is much bigger and longer than my TallBoy.