New issues with EP8?

[Coolcmsc]

My EP8’s been playing up in two ways at 1000km (Edit 2: Thanks to the crew for moving to the correct place ).
Reporting the symptoms for other’s info as I’ll report the LBS solution when I have that and I’d be interested if anybody has had either of these two symptoms.
If you feel tempted to report an opinion of Shimano motors in general or another issue, it would be really kind if you could resist that so as to avoid cluttering the thread - Ta!
1. It’s switching on just fine with normal display, but no power. Also, the ETube app is saying the motor firmware update is corrupt (it wasn’t updated recently) and despite trying, it can’t overwrite it. Also, when connected to the LBS computer via the display they get the same report about corrupt firmware and also can’t update it. However, if the LBS computer is plugged directly into the motor, the corrupt firmware update is detected and successfully overwritten.
2. At the same time, there’s something odd with the chain ring. If the peddles are rotated backwards with the chain on, the chain ring rotates as well (not supposed to). If it’s ‘whizzed’ backwards with the battery out, the on/odd switch light blinks on briefly and then goes out, as does the display briefly at the same time. And then, something ‘loosens’ (in the motor?) and the chain ring almost completely stops turning during back peddling. If the chain is removed, the peddles rotate smoothly and soundlessly, forwards and backwards and the chain ring doesn’t move forwards, but does rotate backwards a bit (this is after the above ‘whizzing’). However, the chain ring is overly ‘stiff’ and sometimes in a 360 rotation very stiff and then suddenly releasing (which repeats). By the way, if you don’t know, rotating the chain ring forwards with the chain off is normally a little stiff, but entirely smoothly so, unlike mine which is too stiff and jerkily so.
My LBS is familiar with the EP8 and hasn’t seen either of these two events before, far less together.
They are in discussion with Madison/Shimano and when I know more I’ll report back.

 

[CJaMTB]

Intriguing. I was going to 'like' that post, but it's not really the sentiment I wanted to put across! Hope it's resolved asap for you. Shimano have just accepted a warranty on my E7000 but will have no replacements until April at the earliest..!

 

[Tonybro]

I'll give it a 'helpful' for now as you've explained the situation and symptoms, explained your LBS has tried certain things and is now engaged with Disti/OEM.

Helpful to keep us updated (which is your stated intention, thanks).

 

[KTMJack]

Im selling both are bikes with Shitmano motors Both are only a year old LBS said there corrupt and won't warranty them
If they were under warranty you cannot get a replacement for months

 

[Coolcmsc]

Im selling both are bikes with Shitmano motors Both are only a year old LBS said there corrupt and won't warranty them
If they were under warranty you cannot get a replacement for months

Your comment is bit of a general moan rather than about my issue, but thanks and I really hope your plan works out. There’s really little better than ‘New Bike Day’ - well, perhaps second to ‘Ooo, my bikes working again day’ .
I’m in the U.K. and if I need a new motor, I’ll let you know plus how long I’ll need to wait here.

 

[Coolcmsc]

I'll give it a 'helpful' for now as you've explained the situation and symptoms, explained your LBS has tried certain things and is now engaged with Disti/OEM.

Helpful to keep us updated (which is your stated intention, thanks).

Tnx

 

[Coolcmsc]

Intriguing. I was going to 'like' that post, but it's not really the sentiment I wanted to put across! Hope it's resolved asap for you. Shimano have just accepted a warranty on my E7000 but will have no replacements until April at the earliest..!

Thanks for caring I had 12 months of horror (6 fails Inc 3 motors) with a different manufacturer in 2020, so I know how you feel about being ‘bike-less’ till April. Powerlessness is a painful pun, but an accurate emotion. If I get allocated a replacement motor, I’ll feed back including the waiting time. My bike’s with 18Bikes in Hope and they are, frankly, amazing. Let’s see…

 

[MadTurnip]

From the information you've provided on the corrupt firmware, I'm inclined to think the flash keeps corrupting. It would possibly explain why the bike hasn't gone into neutral and instead a gear inside the motor is engaged as it can't even boot up and put the bike into neutral. Each component has its own firmware and its all controlled by the display unit which will request a checksum of the firmware on boot maybe.

 

[KTMJack]

Your comment is bit of a general moan rather than about my issue, but thanks and I really hope your plan works out. There’s really little better than ‘New Bike Day’ - well, perhaps second to ‘Ooo, my bikes working again day’ .
I’m in the U.K. and if I need a new motor, I’ll let you know plus how long I’ll need to wait here.

Sorry I'm just upset how Shimano deals with people . Motor are months out also here in the US . There is EBay in Germany that has 100s of motors you can get one in a week

 

[Mikerb]

As far as I am aware none of the current motors including Shimano include any " electrical" control of the motor other than regulating the current supply from the battery. In other words electrical faults do not cause mechanical failure and your tests show mechanical failure...specifically failure to disengage the drive mechanism from the motor to the crankshaft which is typical of a sprag bearing failure.
So I would ignore the various software/electrical symptoms you have as merely a consequence of the motor drive system not being in a "ready" state when you switch on.................possibly due to the bearing failure the torque sensor, is still registering torque in which case the software start up process will not complete successfully and no power will be delivered to the motor.

 

[Coolcmsc]

As far as I am aware none of the current motors including Shimano include any " electrical" control of the motor other than regulating the current supply from the battery. In other words electrical faults do not cause mechanical failure and your tests show mechanical failure...specifically failure to disengage the drive mechanism from the motor to the crankshaft which is typical of a sprag bearing failure.
So I would ignore the various software/electrical symptoms you have as merely a consequence of the motor drive system not being in a "ready" state when you switch on.................possibly due to the bearing failure the torque sensor, is still registering torque in which case the software start up process will not complete successfully and no power will be delivered to the motor.

@Mikerb That’s exceptionally helpful, thank you. Just the sort of advice I knew would be given here!
It’s logical and even though they’ve probably worked all that out too, I’ll pass it on to the LBS tomorrow because they’re open and engage with the customer.

 

[RustyIron]

If your firmware is corrupt, all your other observations are meaningless.
Fix the firmware problem.

 

[CJaMTB]

Thanks for caring I had 12 months of horror (6 fails Inc 3 motors) with a different manufacturer in 2020, so I know how you feel about being ‘bike-less’ till April. Powerlessness is a painful pun, but an accurate emotion. If I get allocated a replacement motor, I’ll feed back including the waiting time. My bike’s with 18Bikes in Hope and they are, frankly, amazing. Let’s see…

Keeping fingers crossed for you!

 

[Coolcmsc]

If your firmware is corrupt, all your other observations are meaningless.
Fix the firmware problem.

Thanks, that’s an attractive conclusion as far as the electrics are concerned, I agree.

However, even if you were correct, they would have value as a record for somebody visiting the forum to search search similar symptoms in the future with the same question - it’ll lead them to your comment for example So, that’s why it’s included.

Interestingly, with the LBS computer attached directly to the motor it updated the firmware first time, but the electrical issue (item 1.) remained unchanged. As did the mechanical issue at the chain ring (item 2.).
The chain ring issue symptomatology isn’t entirely meaningless, for example if it’s a bearing issue (the clutch is most likely), it could be argued that’s diagnostic and all other matters are meaningless. I don’t agree, but some would say that.

None of that alters the truth of your comment.

I’ll post what’s happened now separately.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Keeping fingers crossed for you!

Thank you!

 

[Coolcmsc]

UPDATE:-

(The following relates to the remaining problems once the firmware that had been fine for 80km and then became ‘corrupted ’ was fully and successfully updated by the LBS plugging its computer into the motor instead of the display.)

The LBS has now discussed all this post successful firmware update with Maddison and Shimano.

Neither can explain why the bike switches on without any motor power with a normal appearance on the display (all functions) and normal rotation between eco, trail and boost using the handlebar control. After a 10 minute or so delay, an E010 comes up on the display. Switching off and on leads to a repeat of this set of symptoms that start with a fully functional display and no power and changes after several minutes to E010 on the display.

Both agree the motor probably has clutch wear/damage/failure to explain the chain ring symptoms.

Neither can explain for certain whether or not these symptoms (electrical and mechanical) are related. But agree with posters here that it’s likely they are. It’s just a guess by me, but I think the electrical problem is very unusual (not the corrupt firmware -that’s quite common apparently).

The solution offered that I’ve obviously accepted is a warranty motor exchange.The bikes 10 months old at just over 1100km.

However, neither Maddison nor Shimano know whether or not that will fix the electrical issue, but expect it to.

I think it will and the LBS agrees. That’s because the issue is in the motor (electrics/sensor and bearings/clutch).

For those also waiting for a motor already or who visit here soon, the waiting time is 30 days (early March 2021) according to Maddison. They have a batch of motors expected from Shimano then and with my LBS (the wonderful amazing SC dealer 18Bikes), it’ll be treated as a priority warranty repair and one of those will be sent immediately to 18 bikes (mine is already on its way to Maddison). I’m in the U.K. for those in the US, Europe, etc, etc. (see @CJaMTB post above).

I’ll get back to confirm if it was 30 days and whether or not it fixes everything.

 

[Mikerb]

PRetty sure a new motor will sort your problems so good that is what is in motion.
You cannot place much store in electrical diagnostics. Even the EMS in a car , which is far more sophisticated that anything we have for our bikes, only really provides some pointers regarding what component is not operating as expected. To be fair, your bike diagnostics gave that clue..............the problem lay with the motor. It would probably report corrupted firmware if there was no firmware installed at all!! The classic on a car is a fault report of excessive emissions............when in fact it is merely the sensor that is faulty!!. All most of these reports tell you is that some component that has a reporting function is not reporting or reporting wrongly. As far as the "corrupt firmware" report is concerned, it probably only means some reporting element of the motor is not reporting or reporting wrongly. The most likely link to any reporting function of the motor is either the torque or cadence sensor.........most of the remaining intelligence required for correct operation of the bike is in the controller. So for example the bike will power on .....low voltage circuit to controller/display, but not then connect battery (high voltage circuit) to motor if the torque sensor is active or the speed sensor does not respond.

 

[Coolcmsc]

PRetty sure a new motor will sort your problems so good that is what is in motion.
You cannot place much store in electrical diagnostics. Even the EMS in a car , which is far more sophisticated that anything we have for our bikes, only really provides some pointers regarding what component is not operating as expected. To be fair, your bike diagnostics gave that clue..............the problem lay with the motor. It would probably report corrupted firmware if there was no firmware installed at all!! The classic on a car is a fault report of excessive emissions............when in fact it is merely the sensor that is faulty!!. All most of these reports tell you is that some component that has a reporting function is not reporting or reporting wrongly. As far as the "corrupt firmware" report is concerned, it probably only means some reporting element of the motor is not reporting or reporting wrongly. The most likely link to any reporting function of the motor is either the torque or cadence sensor.........most of the remaining intelligence required for correct operation of the bike is in the controller. So for example the bike will power on .....low voltage circuit to controller/display, but not then connect battery (high voltage circuit) to motor if the torque sensor is active or the speed sensor does not respond.

Thanks.

It’s helpful to see all this dissected out to a simple way of looking at the problem.

I’ll get back

 

[1oldfart]

One simple question, have you ever washed that bike?
Year after year my Ebike is trouble free and i keep reading about problems.
Is it because i never wash any kind of 2 wheels?
With 6 months of cold here i just wipe the excess off.
If my dealer sees me i need a tire or a chain.

 

[urastus]

Re the corrupted firmware: firmware is software, it has to store somewhere. The firmware or the memory where it is stored could be corrupted - I'd be guessing the memory. I'm guessing that was still the issue, even though the lbs had a supposedly successful install. It's kind of like us getting dementia - the symptoms could be anything that is controlled by that firmware, depending on what code is stored or meant to be stored in the faulty memory location.

 

[Coolcmsc]

One simple question, have you ever washed that bike?
Year after year my Ebike is trouble free and i keep reading about problems.
Is it because i never wash any kind of 2 wheels?
With 6 months of cold here i just wipe the excess off.
If my dealer sees me i need a tire or a chain.

Thanks! It’s often considered an issue. But for both the ebikes that I’ve had electrical problems with, this is my policy as follows and it hasn’t stopped the problems. So, I’m my case at least, it’s not the hose. And whilst I’m here, I don’t thrash it, Indint use the wrong cadence, I make good use of the gears. I have only occasionally ridden through (gritty) puddles which I try and avoid. I follow all the advice I’ve seen, ride to a decent standard for my Bullit and the Turbo Levo before and had 6 problems with the Levo over 650km starting at 80km and now this issue at roughly 1000km with the EP8 in a Bullit frame.
I almost never wash my e-bike. If I do, I use a simple dustpan brush dipped into a bucket and no chemicals. When I do, I only use a hose (very slow running) on my chain whilst I turn it gently (in a bike stand for an eeb with a holder thingy at the chain ring) being careful not to run the hose near the motor or other water entry points into the frame. I use a moist cloth where I don’t use the hose. I do wipe it down. I use wax for my chain so there’s little drive train mess. I’m obsessive about reducing the chance of condensation getting into the battery connection (dryness, sudden drops in temp etc). I ‘seal’ the holes for cables into the frame. I take the battery out after each ride and ensure the bike fully dries out. I’ve never seen moisture in the battery compartment in the down tube. I seal the battery cover where it joins the frame with tape.
I do believe how the bike is washed matters. I also believe things like driving rain in heavy wind and jumping off drops into rivers at speed are also potentially problematic. I do all those things on my normally aspirated. Never on my eeb. Eeb bike frames are all different in the way they protect from water ingress to the battery connections which, being easily removable, are less water secure.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Re the corrupted firmware: firmware is software, it has to store somewhere. The firmware or the memory where it is stored could be corrupted - I'd be guessing the memory. I'm guessing that was still the issue, even though the lbs had a supposedly successful install. It's kind of like us getting dementia - the symptoms could be anything that is controlled by that firmware, depending on what code is stored or meant to be stored in the faulty memory location.

Thank you! That makes sense to me, intellectually and in practice from experience. My first eeb, a T-Levo was a problem from 80km and was eventually taken back after a total of 6 electrical probs (3 motors). The final new motor failed in the lbs before they could give it back to me That bike was left with at the lbs and I had a full refund.
I think there was a problem in the bike. I can’t work out what it was, nor could the LBS nor Specialized. It had some bits replaced. But one thing that was never done was a complete strip down of the whole electrical system and reassembly away from the bike on a ‘jig’ with a full test of every component, wire and connection AWAY from the bike. How could it be in a real world at an lbs that must make money? Without that and with me knowing I stuck to all the advice (see above post) because I’d have done almost anything to avoid trouble after the 1st failure left me stranded 20km, I’ll never know. Perhaps Specialized did that when they got the bike back? Unlikely: how would it help them?

 

[Mikerb]

Im afraid even in the motor repair trade there are so few electrical systems engineers that most errors are dealt with by merely changing parts without ever diagnosing the actual problem. LBS have even less experience or expertise. Of course changing parts works eventually if you change enough components and if indeed the issue was due to a component.
Unfortunately in any electrical system the vast majority of faults are in connections/switches and or the wiring. If the fault is intermittent it can be very difficult to find but is possible with the right testing equipment. For example a high resistance disconnection ( "HR dis" in experienced engineers parlance) a simple continuity test may not detect it whereas a resistance test may. I have no doubt many Brose motors were changed when there was in fact nothing wrong with them.........hence some reports of multiple motor changes. Obviously if the motor exhibits mechanical failure that is easy to diagnose.

 

[Coolcmsc]

Im afraid even in the motor repair trade there are so few electrical systems engineers that most errors are dealt with by merely changing parts without ever diagnosing the actual problem. LBS have even less experience or expertise. Of course changing parts works eventually if you change enough components and if indeed the issue was due to a component.
Unfortunately in any electrical system the vast majority of faults are in connections/switches and or the wiring. If the fault is intermittent it can be very difficult to find but is possible with the right testing equipment. For example a high resistance disconnection ( "HR dis" in experienced engineers parlance) a simple continuity test may not detect it whereas a resistance test may. I have no doubt many Brose motors were changed when there was in fact nothing wrong with them.........hence some reports of multiple motor changes. Obviously if the motor exhibits mechanical failure that is easy to diagnose.

Thank you! There’s some really helpful replies here. I posted for a number of reasons and one was to attract thoughtful replies like yours (and others here).

You point is the first I’ve seen anywhere backing up my sense that there can sometimes (not always, obvz) be a more subtle issue ‘elsewhere’ in the electrical circuits as a whole.

And I can see now that even removing the whole system to test would require a level of testing that many (most?) LBS’s could not afford to maintain, even if stripping everything out could be funded somehow, especially for guarantee work (where the LBS funds all labour/workshop costs out of the initial purchase price profit…).

 

[Coolcmsc]

PS: No news about the bike as yet…

 

[Coolcmsc]

Update.

I got the bike back two days ago. It’s fully fixed.

It has a brand new motor and display and the latest firmware.

So, that’s a new EP8 turnaround in the U.K. of 3 weeks.

A big shout out to 18Bikes in Edale (www.18bikes.co.uk). They’ve won the Singletrack LBS of the year award at least 4 times over the years and this is why.

It’s important with these ebikes - any bike - to try and buy from a dealer that takes the time to have the ears of the distributors they use.

Thanks for the advice from all who posted.

 

[Richwall]

18 bikes are great people, very friendly & knowledgeable

 

[Richwall]

Update.

I got the bike back two days ago. It’s fully fixed.

It has a brand new motor and display and the latest firmware.

So, that’s a new EP8 turnaround in the U.K. of 3 weeks.

A big shout out to 18Bikes in Edale (www.18bikes.co.uk). They’ve won the Singletrack LBS of the year award at least 4 times over the years and this is why.

It’s important with these ebikes - any bike - to try and buy from a dealer that takes the time to have the ears of the distributors they use.

Thanks for the advice from all who posted.

Good to hear you got sorted so quickly, gives me some confidence for when I inevitably run into problems.