New Bosch 2022 Motor System (Bosch Smart System) Announced

[JFDI]

I thought I'd send Bosch UK an email to enquire whether this new Thingy might be compatible with the Kiox Controller, perhaps a version with an adapter mount to fit directly onto the Kiox control cradle?
Here's their reply..
Guess which Kiox I have..

Dear David,

Thank you for contacting Bosch eBike.

Regarding your query.
First of all, which Kiox unit do you currently have (since we have 2 different ones)?
Please follow the link below and confirm which one it is you have installed on your eBike.
Kiox 300: The eBike display for sporty eBikers

If it is the new Kiox 300 with Smart System then we can confirm that it is indeed compatible with the new System Controller & Mini Remote.

If you however have the standard Kiox from System Generation 2 we are sorry to say that you will not be able to connect the System Controller & Mini Remote to your eBike.

We hope this information is helpful for you, please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions or doubts, we are happy to help!

Best wishes,
Bahare Green
Your Bosch eBike Team

 

[Mikerb]

So if you want a very small handlebar mode controller and a Spesh TCU type top tube display there is the Giant Trance X E Advanced.
Be careful what you wish for however. the specialized version of a top tube display...the Turbo Connect Unit ( TCU) was vulnerable to water ingress........the top tube is after all not sealed from the headtube and all the important control electronics are in an enclosed and confined space within the top tube. I would not want another bike with that system.
Bosch changed the entire platform with the Bosch Smart System in order to enable all of the planned future software developments. The LED Remote contains all of the intelligence so can be the only device on the bike...ie no display, and some riders ( me included) prefer that. Whyte is one brand that has chosen that route. A Kiox 300 can be added as standard by the bike brand or added subsequently by a user if a display is wanted...........or you can also just use a smartphone.
I understand it is annoying the Bosch Smart System has no backward compatibility but the future software/rider interface developments planned could not be achieved without stanting with a new platform and architecture.

 

[R120]

It’s interesting the different manufacturer’s approach to where the “brain” is located within the system Architechture .

I still think Shimano have the best control ecosystem and options of tailoring cockpit/display set up to how you want it.

 

[Morton027]

I thought I'd send Bosch UK an email to enquire whether this new Thingy might be compatible with the Kiox Controller, perhaps a version with an adapter mount to fit directly onto the Kiox control cradle?
Here's their reply..
Guess which Kiox I have..

Dear David,

Thank you for contacting Bosch eBike.

Regarding your query.
First of all, which Kiox unit do you currently have (since we have 2 different ones)?
Please follow the link below and confirm which one it is you have installed on your eBike.
Kiox 300: The eBike display for sporty eBikers

If it is the new Kiox 300 with Smart System then we can confirm that it is indeed compatible with the new System Controller & Mini Remote.

If you however have the standard Kiox from System Generation 2 we are sorry to say that you will not be able to connect the System Controller & Mini Remote to your eBike.

We hope this information is helpful for you, please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions or doubts, we are happy to help!

Best wishes,
Bahare Green
Your Bosch eBike Team

Is that saying that you’d have to install the new mini remote and the system controller to use it with Kiox 300? Doesn’t seem practical if that’s the case.

 

[cappuccino34]

It’s interesting the different manufacturer’s approach to where the “brain” is located within the system Architechture .

I still think Shimano have the best control ecosystem and options of tailoring cockpit/display set up to how you want it.

It appears that in most of the systems the motor, battery, display and control buttons are all nodes on the bus.

It makes sense the way that Bosch have gone, and the lack of backwards compatibility with the older Gen-4 is understandable given the system architecture. At least the new bits are compatible with the Smart system so we can get rid of the 'Cuttle-fish' remote. What doesn't make sense is that they didn't develop the MTB-suitable parts first, since that's what they sell the most of.

 

[JFDI]

Is that saying that you’d have to install the new mini remote and the system controller to use it with Kiox 300? Doesn’t seem practical if that’s the case.

I was hoping that they would say 'yes there's an adapter version which replaces the kiox control..) Alas its not to be..

 

[Bummers]

I thought I'd send Bosch UK an email to enquire whether this new Thingy might be compatible with the Kiox Controller, perhaps a version with an adapter mount to fit directly onto the Kiox control cradle?
Here's their reply..
Guess which Kiox I have..

Dear David,

Thank you for contacting Bosch eBike.

Regarding your query.
First of all, which Kiox unit do you currently have (since we have 2 different ones)?
Please follow the link below and confirm which one it is you have installed on your eBike.
Kiox 300: The eBike display for sporty eBikers

If it is the new Kiox 300 with Smart System then we can confirm that it is indeed compatible with the new System Controller & Mini Remote.

If you however have the standard Kiox from System Generation 2 we are sorry to say that you will not be able to connect the System Controller & Mini Remote to your eBike.

We hope this information is helpful for you, please do not hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions or doubts, we are happy to help!

Best wishes,
Bahare Green
Your Bosch eBike Team

So is that saying if you've got the kiox 300 (latest) smart system that you can replace the existing bulky controller with the new small one?

 

[JFDI]

So is that saying if you've got the kiox 300 (latest) smart system that you can replace the existing bulky controller with the new small one?

I'd enquire with your LBS first just to confirm it's true, but that's how it reads in the Bosch email?

 

[Doomanic]

The new Smart range is not backwards compatible, so unless you’ve currently got a bike with a 750Wh battery none of this new stuff will work.

 

[Bummers]

The new Smart range is not backwards compatible, so unless you’ve currently got a bike with a 750Wh battery none of this new stuff will work.

Yep, just bought one last week - it's currently getting the frame protection fitted before I pick it up

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

So is that saying if you've got the kiox 300 (latest) smart system that you can replace the existing bulky controller with the new small one?

technically yes, but where are you going to put Top Tube Thingy? This is what the mini remote connects to. It requires a frame cutout.

Bosch weren’t quite giving all the info in the email above when they said it’d work with a Kiox 300 system as the Thingy is a prerequisite for the mini controller.

 

[Mikerb]

It’s interesting the different manufacturer’s approach to where the “brain” is located within the system Architechture .

I still think Shimano have the best control ecosystem and options of tailoring cockpit/display set up to how you want it.

. Most of these bikes use a CAN network which means distributed processing but placing more functionality in one device on the CAN does reduce the number of devices connected

 

[Doomanic]

so there are 2 new framw batts 545w and 725w so i take it these will not work on my gen 2 motor as whould be ebike system 2

Correct.

 

[Bummers]

technically yes, but where are you going to put Top Tube Thingy? This is what the mini remote connects to. It requires a frame cutout.

Bosch weren’t quite giving all the info in the email above when they said it’d work with a Kiox 300 system as the Thingy is a prerequisite for the mini controller.



View attachment 92997

Ah crap, I didn't realise that bit. Thought it might be a direct replacement. Being able to use the kiox display and the minimalist controller would have been my ideal choice.

 

[Oupy]

Seems like a fairly straight forward solution that bosch could develop... It doesnt need to be wireless, just to take the same cable as the current chunky remote. Surely it can't be that hard?!

 

[Chairman]

In the two years I have had my gen4 kiox equipped bike I have broken one controller. It's been tapped onto the bars for over a year now with no further problems. But in that time I have also broken two brake levers and an xo shifter so although i don't much like the controller it works well enough and is no more problematic than the other control mechanisms on the bike

 

[Bomble]

Has anyone come across a fault where it won’t turn on? Mine lasted a mile and half, turned itself off and won’t turn on again.

 

[Mikerb]

Has anyone come across a fault where it won’t turn on? Mine lasted a mile and half, turned itself off and won’t turn on again.

What will not switch on? What bike....what system components?

 

[Husky430]

So glad I just forked out to get my Soviet era styled Purion controller, that came standard on my Sam2, over to a Kiox display and controller.
I thought that it was a much better and minimalist compared to the Purion.
Now they have bought out the mini which is light years ahead again. After having come from a Shimano controller, I would have jumped at purchasing the smaller version if it was compatible.
Alas not to be and as someone has already mentioned, the smaller controller on a cable that could be plug into the Kiox or Kiox 300 would have been fantastic and I would think a financial success for Bosch.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

So glad I just forked out to get my Soviet era styled Purion controller, that came standard on my Sam2, over to a Kiox display and controller.
I thought that it was a much better and minimalist compared to the Purion.
Now they have bought out the mini which is light years ahead again. After having come from a Shimano controller, I would have jumped at purchasing the smaller version if it was compatible.
Alas not to be and as someone has already mentioned, the smaller controller on a cable that could be plug into the Kiox or Kiox 300 would have been fantastic and I would think a financial success for Bosch.

With progress so fast on ebikes there’s not a lot of incentive to work on old kit, even simple controllers will require more development time.

99% of product dev / software bandwidth will likely be spend on current and future roadmap kit. 1% reserved for legacy stuff and even then only really for safety aspects.

It’s an absolute arms race at the moment and companies are not hanging about!

 

[Mikerb]

A few things I have learned a bout the Bosch Smart System.......
The 750 battery is not a necessity. You can also use a 625 or 500 battery.
With the previous generation Bosch system using the Purion, the Purion was powered by 2 button batteries ( 2016 batteries) which are user replaceable. In effect those batteries do very little since as soon as the system is powered up by pressing the power on button on the Purion, the main bike battery then powers the Purion. With the LED Remote on the Bosch Smart System there is a ( supposedly) non replaceable 3.7v Lithium battery which is chargeable. That battery enables the LED Remote to switch on the system ( effectively switching on the main bike battery). The LED Remote battery is not capable of supporting all the LEDs etc for very long however and I am not totally sure which of 2 possible scenarios then occurs. One scenario is that the LED Remote battery is the only power source but is constantly being charged by the main battery whilst the bike is being ridden.....ie current is being drawn from the battery by the motor. The other ( in my opinion less likely ) scenario is that, like the Purion, the LED Remote is powered by the motor once the system has been switched on.
Earlier I said the LED Remote battery was "supposedly" not user replaceable. Well you can buy the battery for c £7 and it fixes to the underneath of the LED Remote with a small star screw. It is rectangular in shape and has a 3 wire tail and connector plug suggesting it does a little more than delivering or accepting a pos and neg feed.........the 3rd wire presumably being a signal wire.
A small remote would have no battery and no processor chip so would need to consist merely gate switches of a multi wire connection to a controller.
The LED Remote is fairly chunky because it includes all the functionality to operate a separate display if indeed you want one. That separate display can be fairly basic and its functionality is controlled by the LED Remote rather than on the display. Alternatively the LED Remote can operate with no separate display or via blutooth with a smartphone.
Happy to be corrected if any of that is wrong..............or supplemented if anyone has further insight.

 

[Bomble]

What will not switch on? What bike....what system components?

E160rsx . I turn it on, the battery level light moves up and down and then it’s dead, app won’t connect, nothing.
Was great for a mile and a half.
It’s brought back fond memories of my Levo

 

[Mikerb]

E160rsx . I turn it on, the battery level light moves up and down and then it’s dead, app won’t connect, nothing.
Was great for a mile and a half.
It’s brought back fond memories of my Levo

first ride.......or something that happened after a few rides??

 

[Bomble]

first ride.......or something that happened after a few rides??

Picked up today and the first ride, that’s why I’ve been bugging you the last few days for your thoughts on the bike

 

[Bomble]

id say it is more about total controll over there products and forcing you to buy new if you want the latests and greatest fetures like apple ect.

they dont want you to even fix these things tho they did release a service kit for the cx and performance motors gen2 but thats about it and nothing ever since.

i have kept my bike going now since 2014 and my last upgrade was the kiox display but with the new smart frame batts could mean the end of my bike if they stop making them and that time will come soon i bet just a good job i found one in stock as peter cant get any for 18 months so those orders will be filled and that will be my last batt from bosch i think.

i want a faster lighter more powerfull bike and none of this smart shit to track you 247 via a app what next speeding fines or motors locked down via wifi link is where this is all going as it is clear they want rid off dongles yet they made the defeat device for vw for loads of money .

at least they now do the sclass motor version but i bet you wont see that on any mtb as that is what i wanted in the first place.

display wise all i really want is the batts % 1-100 or the batts voltage and a small wireless remote like the one i cant have

all i use is off and turbo anyway and only use the display for the batts % and have no use for the rest of it.

With the emtb market changing so fast I’m impressed your 8/9 year old bike is still going, even more impressed you have fitted a Kiox to it

 

[Mikerb]

Picked up today and the first ride, that’s why I’ve been bugging you the last few days for your thoughts on the bike

OK...sad news ...obviously you will take the bike back to be fixed. One thing you could try if that is difficult or means a delay , is to charge the battery in the LED Remote. You can do that via the USB C port on the LED Remote .......recommendation is max 5v and 600 Ma so using a laptop would be best ( most laptop USB ports deliver 500 ma) . The battery probably arrives with minimal charge in it and then the LED Remote is switched on quite a bit without the bike being ridden when being set up in the shop.....so it is probably totally discharged. Let me know how you get on.

 

[Doomanic]

It’s brought back fond memories of my Levo

Sorry, but

 

[Bomble]

Cheers Mike, I’ll give it a try in the morning.
Did you see my pictures in the Whyte section?

 

[Mikerb]

Cheers Mike, I’ll give it a try in the morning.
Did you see my pictures in the Whyte section?

i will look now

 

[Tower]

Picked up today and the first ride, that’s why I’ve been bugging you the last few days for your thoughts on the bike

Bombie,

Don't want to get your hopes up, but:

Picked my 2023 Whyte e160 up last weekend. Didn't have time to tune suspension or set up cockpit. Couple of local rides, no issues. Started tinkering with cockpit/suspension few days later. LED remote wasn't where I wanted it so - unplugged the cable, moved LED mount. Plugged cable back in. Attempted to turn on - same issue as you - leds chase up and down but no start up (or connection to Flow app). Realised it must be due to not plugging cable in correctly, took a closer look, hadn't pushed it back in until it 'clicked' into place. It takes a fair bit of force.

Have you had yours apart and now have the same issue possibly? I suspect the blue leds chasing up and down but then switching off could indicate a connection issue with the LED module. On the underneath of the cable is a white mark which lines up with one on the the port, take care and check it hasn't somehow been caught and loosened. Hope this helps bud.

Tower

Edit: apologies, just spotted this was July, not August. Presumably you got it sorted.