Levo Gen 3 My Levo is constantly breaking down is this normal ?

[Funky Bolly]

Hello , after 3 1/2 years of great service from my Kenevo I bought a new Levo last January But the bloody thing has had many faults . First off 7 rides in (a ride is about 2-3 hrs max ) the chain snapped and closer inspection 2 other links were cracked . New KMC Ebike chain purchased top job next the TCU battery ok and fair play the shop renewed it same day and delivered it to me so I could make a ride with my mates . Now the big problems constant cutting out so off to LBS a few days later new loom fitted a few weeks later motor very noisy and keeps cutting out again , after 2 weeks new motor fitted a few rides later bike keeps cutting again . Then after a few days bike returned with another new loom fitted , got bike home red and blue lights on TCU back to shop . At shop a new battery was fitted this time all ok fast forward to last weekend bike had starting up when running couldn’t choose different power modes then 20 minutes later on way home (too nervous to ride anymore ) bike totally cut out now , me totally pi$$ ed off ! Now before all the smart arsed contributors tell me I’m not looking after it I don’t wash near motor, battery or TCU and the bike is NEVER WASHED UPSIDE DOWN .I clean the power lead before I charge and take great care to check the charger connector is 100% clean ! Surely The bike isn’t fit for purpose ?

 

[Mikerb]

Hello , after 3 1/2 years of great service from my Kenevo I bought a new Levo last January But the bloody thing has had many faults . First off 7 rides in (a ride is about 2-3 hrs max ) the chain snapped and closer inspection 2 other links were cracked . New KMC Ebike chain purchased top job next the TCU battery ok and fair play the shop renewed it same day and delivered it to me so I could make a ride with my mates . Now the big problems constant cutting out so off to LBS a few days later new loom fitted a few weeks later motor very noisy and keeps cutting out again , after 2 weeks new motor fitted a few rides later bike keeps cutting again . Then after a few days bike returned with another new loom fitted , got bike home red and blue lights on TCU back to shop . At shop a new battery was fitted this time all ok fast forward to last weekend bike had starting up when running couldn’t choose different power modes then 20 minutes later on way home (too nervous to ride anymore ) bike totally cut out now , me totally pi$$ ed off ! Now before all the smart arsed contributors tell me I’m not looking after it I don’t wash near motor, battery or TCU and the bike is NEVER WASHED UPSIDE DOWN .I clean the power lead before I charge and take great care to check the charger connector is 100% clean ! Surely The bike isn’t fit for purpose ?

what model and year? So in summary your bike has a new battery, new motor, and new wiring loom, and still it causes problems. I note neither the TCU or motor to battery cable were changed during this time which makes me wonder if one of those 2 components is/has been the actual problem. Since the TCU battery died ( which should last c 3 years in normal use) I wonder if that suggests the TCU itself was/actually is the problem?

 

[Funky Bolly]

what model and year? So in summary your bike has a new battery, new motor, and new wiring loom, and still it causes problems. I note neither the TCU or motor to battery cable were changed during this time which makes me wonder if one of those 2 components is/has been the actual problem. Since the TCU battery died ( which should last c 3 years in normal use) I wonder if that suggests the TCU itself was/actually is the problem?

Hi the dealer fitted 2 new looms (I take his word on that ) the first problem I had was the Tcu battery failed . It’s a gen 3 model year 2022 built it’s a levo comp alloy

 

[Mikerb]

Hi the dealer fitted 2 new looms (I take his word on that ) the first problem I had was the Tcu battery failed . It’s a gen 3 model year 2022 built it’s a levo comp alloy

yes.. assume wiring loom refers to the CAN wiring and probably does not include the battery to motor cable. Overall I was implying that the work done by your LBS appears to be one of simply change a component and see if that fixes it. If the fault is completely dead that is an easier fix than trying to track down an intermittent fault so I am not critising them but I am always surprised that the controller ( in this case that is the TCU) is not the first suspect. A 2022 bike would have been built in 2021 and if then bought in 2023 it has spent a lot of time in storage in varying temperature conditions which in my mind would most likely impact on electronic components ( as in the TCU/ battery BMS/Motor PCB) rather than wiring or connectors.
Since you have had the motor and battery changed I would go for a new TCU.

 

[Porcupine Slim]

You had me at "the chain snapped" (and "2 other links were cracked").

 

[steve_sordy]

I would have no confidence in going on a long ride far from home on that bike.
And yours is definitely NOT!
It does not sound fit for purpose to me.

 

[Crawford919]

Hello , after 3 1/2 years of great service from my Kenevo I bought a new Levo last January But the bloody thing has had many faults . First off 7 rides in (a ride is about 2-3 hrs max ) the chain snapped and closer inspection 2 other links were cracked . New KMC Ebike chain purchased top job next the TCU battery ok and fair play the shop renewed it same day and delivered it to me so I could make a ride with my mates . Now the big problems constant cutting out so off to LBS a few days later new loom fitted a few weeks later motor very noisy and keeps cutting out again , after 2 weeks new motor fitted a few rides later bike keeps cutting again . Then after a few days bike returned with another new loom fitted , got bike home red and blue lights on TCU back to shop . At shop a new battery was fitted this time all ok fast forward to last weekend bike had starting up when running couldn’t choose different power modes then 20 minutes later on way home (too nervous to ride anymore ) bike totally cut out now , me totally pi$$ ed off ! Now before all the smart arsed contributors tell me I’m not looking after it I don’t wash near motor, battery or TCU and the bike is NEVER WASHED UPSIDE DOWN .I clean the power lead before I charge and take great care to check the charger connector is 100% clean ! Surely The bike isn’t fit for purpose ?

Yes to answer your question they are absolute garbage. Look at my post about the problem I been having with one of my Levo’s. I would not be that pissed if it was just one bike but I’ve had 4 Levo’s since 2018 and they all had multiple failures. Totally sick of them to be truthful.

 

[CarbonMan]

Hello , after 3 1/2 years of great service from my Kenevo I bought a new Levo last January But the bloody thing has had many faults . First off 7 rides in (a ride is about 2-3 hrs max ) the chain snapped and closer inspection 2 other links were cracked . New KMC Ebike chain purchased top job next the TCU battery ok and fair play the shop renewed it same day and delivered it to me so I could make a ride with my mates . Now the big problems constant cutting out so off to LBS a few days later new loom fitted a few weeks later motor very noisy and keeps cutting out again , after 2 weeks new motor fitted a few rides later bike keeps cutting again . Then after a few days bike returned with another new loom fitted , got bike home red and blue lights on TCU back to shop . At shop a new battery was fitted this time all ok fast forward to last weekend bike had starting up when running couldn’t choose different power modes then 20 minutes later on way home (too nervous to ride anymore ) bike totally cut out now , me totally pi$$ ed off ! Now before all the smart arsed contributors tell me I’m not looking after it I don’t wash near motor, battery or TCU and the bike is NEVER WASHED UPSIDE DOWN .I clean the power lead before I charge and take great care to check the charger connector is 100% clean ! Surely The bike isn’t fit for purpose ?

Sadly it seems to be the norm, even though it shouldn't. I was torn between Levo and Rail but the persistent problems (many with the motor) I read about here drove me to the Rail. Spec has a great warranty but you'll use it far too often, was the impression i got. My Rail has had zero problems (other than the infamous battery rattle, which I fixed with a little foam padding). Good luck, hopefully you soon get it fixed for good.

 

[lightbulb]

I have same model as you. Replaced controller under warranty. Friend has the same and motor replaced under warranty. Both less than a year old. Specialized has been good with the warranty. It took several months and missed rides to troubleshoot the controller. Friend was luckier, LBS knew right away the issue. It is a great time when it is working though.

 

[steve_sordy]

It is a thread like this that brings it home what problems the Levo has and has had ever since launch. But the Levo fanboys won't hear of any criticism. Instead, they bang on about the amazing warranty. They say that they have had four motors and only had four days without a bike. I agree, a great warranty and a great service, but I sure do not want to be forever claiming on a warranty. I just cannot trust the bike not to fail on me in the worst possible location, leaving me to push 10 miles back to the car over rough and muddy terrain, in the rain. We don't all live in California!

I have ridden a Levo when I was visiting Australia and it was indeed a good bike, just not for the UK, or indeed anywhere that isn't as dry as a vulture's jockstrap.

 

[Just in time]

I’ve seen this type of post all the motors they all have their issues. However I’ve had the gen 3 Levo since it first came out . With over 1800k the motor has gotten whinier but other than that it’s been solid . I guess I’m one of the lucky ones. Without a doubt I believe the Bosch system has the least amount of complaints for what I’ve been reading over the years.

 

[RustyIron]

leaving me to push 10 miles back to the car over rough and muddy terrain, in the rain.

@steve_sordy's a funny boy, he is.
What is this "mud" of which you speak?

 

[PaulK]

The TCU is commonly the issue - they suffer from water ingress and cause all sorts of problems.
We have a good supply of them at work for this reason. It also is the first item that we will swap after connecting to Turbo Suite.

 

[Bearing Man]

Hello , after 3 1/2 years of great service from my Kenevo I bought a new Levo last January But the bloody thing has had many faults . First off 7 rides in (a ride is about 2-3 hrs max ) the chain snapped and closer inspection 2 other links were cracked . New KMC Ebike chain purchased top job next the TCU battery ok and fair play the shop renewed it same day and delivered it to me so I could make a ride with my mates . Now the big problems constant cutting out so off to LBS a few days later new loom fitted a few weeks later motor very noisy and keeps cutting out again , after 2 weeks new motor fitted a few rides later bike keeps cutting again . Then after a few days bike returned with another new loom fitted , got bike home red and blue lights on TCU back to shop . At shop a new battery was fitted this time all ok fast forward to last weekend bike had starting up when running couldn’t choose different power modes then 20 minutes later on way home (too nervous to ride anymore ) bike totally cut out now , me totally pi$$ ed off ! Now before all the smart arsed contributors tell me I’m not looking after it I don’t wash near motor, battery or TCU and the bike is NEVER WASHED UPSIDE DOWN .I clean the power lead before I charge and take great care to check the charger connector is 100% clean ! Surely The bike isn’t fit for purpose ?

At the risk of being that "smart arsed contributor"... Hear me out first. After your chain and TCU battery going flat, the failures you mention are all classic signs of water ingress. When we talk to people who have suffered a catalogue of failures like yours, we are nearly always told by the owner, that they have not been through deep water or pressure washed their bike, never even got the hose near it etc.!
But then as we go down the list of possible things that can lead to these sorts of issues, there is nearly always one that causes the owner to go.. Ah, yes I did do that! But that wouldn't hurt would it?

Let me take a look at what issues you've experienced. The power loom issues were always caused by water shorting two cut off CAN Bus wires, causing the bike to do all sorts of different things, but one common one was switching on and off. The power looms have been modified now to help stop this. This can be the same for the Rosenburg plug in a few cases. More common to the earlier motors though.
A noisy motor is 9.5 times out of 10 caused by bearing failure. And bearing failure in a relatively new motor is always due to water ingress. TCU failure... As Paulk says in the post above... Water ingress.
Battery failure, water ingress is less common unless submerged.

You said you don't wash the motor, but have a read through the following list and see if any of these ring a bell?
Fording water deeper than the crank (for those with older motors, this can be anytime in the last 6 months).
Washing the bike on it's side.
Using a car rack for your bike on wet roads without a cover on the motor.
Riding long flooded ruts
Riding extremely wet rides i.e. large puddles and many of them.
Lending your bike to another friend or family member.
Living in Wales, or anywhere in the central/northern English rain belt!

The only reason I have gone to such lengths with this response is because, if any of what I have said above rings true, the next ebike you get will do exactly the same.

 

[steve_sordy]

@steve_sordy's a funny boy, he is.
What is this "mud" of which you speak?

 

[Mikerb]

At the risk of being that "smart arsed contributor"... Hear me out first. After your chain and TCU battery going flat, the failures you mention are all classic signs of water ingress. When we talk to people who have suffered a catalogue of failures like yours, we are nearly always told by the owner, that they have not been through deep water or pressure washed their bike, never even got the hose near it etc.!
But then as we go down the list of possible things that can lead to these sorts of issues, there is nearly always one that causes the owner to go.. Ah, yes I did do that! But that wouldn't hurt would it?

Let me take a look at what issues you've experienced. The power loom issues were always caused by water shorting two cut off CAN Bus wires, causing the bike to do all sorts of different things, but one common one was switching on and off. The power looms have been modified now to help stop this. This can be the same for the Rosenburg plug in a few cases. More common to the earlier motors though.
A noisy motor is 9.5 times out of 10 caused by bearing failure. And bearing failure in a relatively new motor is always due to water ingress. TCU failure... As Paulk says in the post above... Water ingress.
Battery failure, water ingress is less common unless submerged.

You said you don't wash the motor, but have a read through the following list and see if any of these ring a bell?
Fording water deeper than the crank (for those with older motors, this can be anytime in the last 6 months).
Washing the bike on it's side.
Using a car rack for your bike on wet roads without a cover on the motor.
Riding long flooded ruts
Riding extremely wet rides i.e. large puddles and many of them.
Lending your bike to another friend or family member.
Living in Wales, or anywhere in the central/northern English rain belt!

The only reason I have gone to such lengths with this response is because, if any of what I have said above rings true, the next ebike you get will do exactly the same.

Well said....and just to add something to that I often read comments like.." its a mountain bike so it should be able to withstand some messy trails and a good wash". I sympathise with that viewpoint but our bikes are EMTBs not MTBs and if you cannot accept that they all have limited protection as far as the electrical components are concerned......some aspects fixable...some not, or not completely, its best to stick to buying MTBs.

There are 2 very common aspects of electrical component design that in my opinion always represent a risk. One is the placement of the system controller in the top tube ( e.g. Specialized TCU/Master mind and the Bosch Smart mini remote/controller set up) and open fronted downtubes. Inside a closed tube whether carbon or alloy is not a very friendly environment for a system controller, most especially when that controller is made up of 2 parts and with opening for USB and cable connections. I prefer the LED Remote on the bars for the Bosch Smart System for example.

The easilly removeable battery solution on a lot of bikes is a cutaway downtube usually with a cover that is nowhere near water or dust proof. In addition the heavy battery sits on the connection plug which has to withstand both strong vertical forces and the constant removal/replacement of the battery. I prefer designs with solid downtubes and battery access via the bottom of the downtube.

On the Levo which was my first EMTB I wrapped the TCU in insulating tape and used amalgamating tape to seal the 2 connection ports and the in line connectors of the tail wires from those ports. I also used liquid gasket to seal between the TCU and the frame. Never had any electrical issues.

Protecting the motor from water ingress is not really a DIY job and all the motors lack a full seal at the crank in order to avoid too much friction. Bearing Man can improve that seal if the motor gets to the point it needs his attention, otherwise it is a case of being aware that going through deep water of even shallower water at speed, is likely to lead to water ingress.

 

[Chicane]

Considering the amount of Gen 3 Levo’s that are in the wild (speaking of the US), issues are rare. Mine is bulletproof so far at 900 miles as are two of my friends with twice the miles+ as mine. My local shop has sold hundreds and they’ve seen limited issues, including motor related. I’m speaking of Gen 3 only.

 

[Porcupine Slim]

The shop where I bought my gen 3 Turbo Levo has a rental fleet of about 50 Turbo Levos.

I've never heard the mechanics complain about unordinary maintenance with this portion of their fleet, and they are under pressure to make nightly turnarounds to honor commitments to the tourists who have made reservations for the use of the bicycles the next morning.

 

[steve_sordy]

The shop where I bought my gen 3 Turbo Levo has a rental fleet of about 50 Turbo Levos.

I've never heard the mechanics complain about unordinary maintenance with this portion of their fleet, and they are under pressure to make nightly turnarounds to honor commitments to the tourists who have made reservations for the use of the bicycles the next morning.

The clue is in the location, "Moab Utah USA".

A quick Google gave me this:

Moab is located in Utah's arid high desert region which receives an average of only about 10 inches of precipitation per year (except in the nearby mountains).​

Ten inches in one year, we can get that in a day easily.
I once experienced 7" of rain in an hour, I have had drier showers.

 

[Porcupine Slim]

Good for you.

I started riding MTB during the early-1980s in the swamps of Florida, USA (you can look up the rainfall stats).

The mud was made up of ancient grains of shattered quartzites that persisted after the disintegration of the Appalachian mountains.

We got one good ride out of the chain and a month or so on a cog set. Maybe a season on a chain ring. Maybe not.
The derailleur cables clogged halfway through the ride. Bottom bracket bearings turned into crudely shaped rubble.

When The Rock Shox RS-1 came out, the seals lasted a couple of weeks before we would attempt a rarely successful rebuild.

Nobody ever whined about warranties.

Pay to play.

 

[Bearing Man]

Good for you.

I started riding MTB during the early-1980s in the swamps of Florida, USA (you can look up the rainfall stats).

The mud was made up of ancient grains of shattered quartzites that persisted after the disintegration of the Appalachian mountains.

We got one good ride out of the chain and a month or so on a cog set. Maybe a season on a chain ring. Maybe not. The shock seals lasted a couple of weeks. The derailleur cables clogged halfway through the ride.

Nobody ever whined about warranties.

Pay to play.

That's the big difference between MTB's and eMTB's. I think we should open a shop in Florida, sounds like business would be good

 

[Porcupine Slim]

That's the big difference between MTB's and eMTB's. I think we should open a shop in Florida, sounds like business would be good

What actually happened is that most riders gradually decided to avoid riding in mud.

The gritty sand is still a big problem, but most riders seem to have figured out that riding in mud costs too much money.

But not everyone:

 

[Stihldog]

My Rail 9.7 2020 with less than 20K kms must be the exception.

Same motor since new, ridden in all types of weather, completely submerged numerous times, gently washed after each ride but allowed to dry after each ride. I have installed 2 bearing seal kits which probably helps.

I know my days are numbered though

 

[G-Sport]

I think that my 2 failed TCU's are down to water, the stuff falls from the sky right onto it. Not sure how I can avoid that...

 

[Crawford919]

I think that my 2 failed TCU's are down to water, the stuff falls from the sky right onto it. Not sure how I can avoid that...

I agree. Every time you read one of these forums where a guy is simply asking if others have had problems and how they were able to remedy it all you see is what we have above. Self proclaimed Know it all’s that blame the owner and not the manufacturer. When I was a service manager at a franchise motorcycle dealer years back the owner would always say that nobody wants to know how great your bike is doing, they just want their’s fixed. I never forgot that. What I want someone to answer is why can you ride a Japanese or European dirt bike in the mud and water for hours on end, pressure washing them every time for years and will fire up and perform perfectly every time without issue?? But when you ride a ebike though a mud puddle or gently wash it and it completely fails regularly it the owner fault?? Please someone explain this.

 

[Ribinrobin]

had my levo a year and a half only issue has been components. Motor has done 1400ish miles, batterys fine, motors fine.

 

[Porcupine Slim]

Please someone explain this.

50lb eBike = still too darn heavy
230lb 250cc motorbike = lighter than ever

Good luck

 

[G-Sport]

I agree. Every time you read one of these forums where a guy is simply asking if others have had problems and how they were able to remedy it all you see is what we have above. Self proclaimed Know it all’s that blame the owner and not the manufacturer. When I was a service manager at a franchise motorcycle dealer years back the owner would always say that nobody wants to know how great your bike is doing, they just want their’s fixed. I never forgot that. What I want someone to answer is why can you ride a Japanese or European dirt bike in the mud and water for hours on end, pressure washing them every time for years and will fire up and perform perfectly every time without issue?? But when you ride a ebike though a mud puddle or gently wash it and it completely fails regularly it the owner fault?? Please someone explain this.

I think this is a bit unfair. I don't think anyone is really defending the manufacturers, just trying to highlight the circumstances where failure occurs.
It can be comforting to know that some users are having no issues, it should give you hope that it is worth persisting with warranty and that if you can take the right precautions and get lucky (?) it may help.
I do think that newer parts are possibly better. My first gen TCU has failed twice now and my local shop carry spares so it is a quick change (and happily I have never been left stranded by the failure), but they don't carry spares of the second gen Mastermind unit, supposedly because failure is much less common. That seems like progress.
My first gen1 SL motor quickly developed axial play and made nasty noises, the replacement motor seemed much stiffer (especially the first few rides), which I think indicates that the sealing has been improved.
Manufacturers do not want warranty I am sure that they are doing all they can to fix these issues. But it would help if they replaced old flawed units with newer improved ones wherever possible. When/if my TCU fails again I am going to really push for it to be upgraded to the mastermind, especially as I am nearing the end of my warranty...

 

[Bearing Man]

I agree. Every time you read one of these forums where a guy is simply asking if others have had problems and how they were able to remedy it all you see is what we have above. Self proclaimed Know it all’s that blame the owner and not the manufacturer. When I was a service manager at a franchise motorcycle dealer years back the owner would always say that nobody wants to know how great your bike is doing, they just want their’s fixed. I never forgot that. What I want someone to answer is why can you ride a Japanese or European dirt bike in the mud and water for hours on end, pressure washing them every time for years and will fire up and perform perfectly every time without issue?? But when you ride a ebike though a mud puddle or gently wash it and it completely fails regularly it the owner fault?? Please someone explain this.

As a self proclaimed know it all, let me see if I can shed some light on this. I often asked myself these exact same questions in the early days. As a vehicle mechanic and then a motorcycle mechanic with my own repair shop, and a keen off-road motorcycle rider. I am now the owner of the worlds first and largest ebike motor repair business. So I am extremely familiar with all the practices used in all these fields of engineering. As others will know from many of my previous posts, I am not always on the side of the manufacturer. However, I can see the issues they face.

Firstly, There are also some very big differences between an ebike motor and that of a combustion engine. The two main differences are oil and friction. A motorcycle engine has external seals and behind these are usually open bearings that are lubricated by the engine oil. This means, if you manage to get a little water past the seals, it goes into the oil, where it is condensed out on your next ride. (Water will penetrate a seal when a pressure washer is used and that's why you have to replace swing arm, wheel and headstock bearings etc.). Seals also create friction. Again, no great problem for a combustion engine, it has power to spare. One other thing is that the oil is under pressure and the engines have breathers, this stops water being drawn into the motor when it enters water.

An ebike motor has none of these things, so if water enters a bearing, there is no oil to wash it out, it's in their oxidising the bearing races until the bearing fails, this is the same with grit or dirt, there is no oil filter. If seals strong enough to withstand water pressure of any kind are added, your power will go down and your battery consumption will go up. Your motor normally has 250W of power as apposed to 30+BHP of an engine.

When you couple this with the fact that 90% of all ebikes made are road bikes, that suffer none of these issues, you start to see a bigger picture. Now I am still not saying that the ebike motor manufacturers are right. I believe each manufacturer should produce a dedicated more powerful and totally sealed unit, but currently it will come with a detrimental cost to your battery range. This would ultimately be acceptable to some but totally unacceptable to others. I'm guessing those living in dry countries would be properly upset!

There will be solutions one day, but they will always be compromises unless battery technology changes and we can have it all.

 

[Porcupine Slim]

FWIW,
About a year ago, the first eBike I ever rode was forcibly loaned to me by a well-meaning friend despite my reservations about riding such a device.

We took two Bafang-equipped QuietKat fat bikes on a weekend camping trip to the Colorado mountains.

During the trip, the bikes sat out during a torrential 5' visibility monsoon season rainstorm (an annual average of 40in/year in that locale), which was preceded and followed by 8 hours of continuous mild rainfall. It rained on the bikes for 18 hours while they sat cabled to our bike rack.

I was worried that I had just purchased a pair of waterlogged bikes.

To date, those two bikes, part of a rental fleet, have exhibited no problems.

Perhaps the trade-off is that these are not really mountain bikes in any sense of the word. They are 40mph without pedaling electric motorbikes that weigh so much that it takes two persons to loft them onto a rack. They are marketed to backwoods hunters. I guess you could say they were built for a purpose. The darn things are difficult to push, even on flat land. They are sluggish.

I guess Bafang has had a lot of time to figure out what it takes to make a 24/7/365 commuter drive.

When I shopped for an eBike, my primary concern was finding a motor control system that felt like it was designed to feel "just right" to a long-time pedal biker. I did not want the feel of an electric motorcycle. I felt like Specialized had that figured out, so I bought a Turbo Levo Carbon Expert. The shop kindly let me build it myself. I do not own any other circa 2020s bikes, so I wanted to learn everything I could in anticipation of maintenance, etc. The bike has been good to me.

As it is, I usually ride with the power assist off and only switch to Eco mode when I am returning home and need to make it up some hills without being discouraged by my body's age. Despite the extra 25 pounds, the bike rides like a bike.

I don't like having a 52lb bike, but at least I can lift it onto the bike rack. I would have preferred to buy an SL system, but was advised that the hills are too steep for a fellow in my shape. I think the SL systems are really attractive, and I wonder what it would have been like to have one when I was 50.

Good luck.