Motors for The biggeer guys

[Madmountainman]

The Mondraker's are due in the UK some time in April and have a 126kg max rider weight limit which, given the 29er wheels have straight pull spokes, is quite an achievement. It's on my shortlist because the geometry appears to give a roomy cockpit for taller riders, big hitting suspension, big wheels and in-country support in case something goes awry. The Nicolai's are lower on my list, due to still using a spoke magnet and, being direct to consumer, have the added hassle and expense of getting the bike back to Germany if something goes wrong.

 

[Rusty]

Yup, alright for the smaller guys that weigh less than 92kg, kitted up for riding, as that's the maximum rider weight limit.

Then you almost get to the formula that about rider weight minus bike weight being equal or some such thing .... feck they are heavy.

 

[Dan63]

They make the game one size larger for the e140. And they also have a larger stem. Check their website but it's correct that otherwise it's the same frame with shorter future and shocks which can be internally adjusted to 160 on the rear and with a new air spring in the front which is what my brother did. Incidentally be is also around 1,9 meters tall. Loves his bike.

From Merida website -
"That's the reason why the eONE-FORTY has different sizing compared to eONE-SIXTY. A frame with a 44cm seat tube length, for example, is a size L in the eONE-FORTY, but at the eONE-SIXTY, it is a size M."

E140 is smaller. M E160 frame = L E140 frame.

 

[Wernher]

From Merida website -
"That's the reason why the eONE-FORTY has different sizing compared to eONE-SIXTY. A frame with a 44cm seat tube length, for example, is a size L in the eONE-FORTY, but at the eONE-SIXTY, it is a size M."

E140 is smaller. M E160 frame = L E140 frame.

Yes, I got confused and had to go back and look at the reasons for this. Essentially the reasons for the change in geometry that leads to the difference in sizing lies in the greater difference between fork and shock length on the 140 than on the 160 as well as a longer stem on the 140 than on the 160.

This means if you want to make your bike bigger because you are unhappy with the XL e160's size you can make it bigger by fitting a longer fork, fit a shorter stem (already quite short), limiting the stroke of the rear shock, a combination of these or all of it. On my Giant Trance-e, I found the front-end way too low and my size Large for my length (1,89 meters) was just a little small. At the time a larger size was not available and Giant advised that I am exactly on the border between the two sizes. I ended up fitting higher handlebars (15 mm additional rise not enough and extra spacers not enough) and then fitted a fork with 30mm additional axle to crown height with the option to raise it a further 20 mm removing internal limiters. With a much slacker head tube angle of just over 64 degrees, I now have a sensible bottom bracket height, improved high speed stability and an effectively larger bike. I ended up leaving the travel at 150mm as it is in the sweet spot where I want it.

 

[Wernher]

Based on my own experience with eMTB's the following that may help in selectin the right bike.

I am very happy with my Giant Trance-e for my type of riding and considering the value proposition, but given the change in what has become available here locally now, I would have opted for the Merida and that is considering that we have Specialized, Trek, Scott among other main stream brands available here now. We are however still very limited in what we get here compared with Europe and the USA.

Just another observation in riding with people on various different brands:

1. Specialized, although a fantastic bike to ride has been marred with issues on motors failing and issues with wiring. Although their warranty is excellent and they stand by their product my friends regularly have to take their bikes in for repairs having to leave them there for weeks at a time and this means they lose riding time. I also found that their battery connectors are vulnerable in rough terrain with rocks damaging the plugs. For that reason alone I am not a fan and will not buy it. Not too well specced for the price with substandard forks and brakes on the cheaper models. Also reports of hub failures.

Giant - Not that exciting but extremely reliable and their warranty and support is very good. It never left me on a trail due to a failure of any kind and whenever something happens it is sorted quickly and without fuss. Standard kit is very well specced with eBike optimised 36 mm forks across the range and four pot calipers on the brakes even on the cheaper models. Its biggest strength is how it climbs with that long chainstay and the Maestro rear suspension keeping that rear wheel gripping like nothing I've ever experienced. Weaknesses include rear hub failures and initially controller failures which were replaced with an upgraded unit and never failed again. Giant even offered me an upgrade from their stock hub to a DT Swiss hub. Geometry not to everybody's liking. Yamaha motor slightly noisy in certain condition. Motor prefers lower cadence than Brose, Shimano and Bosch. Also difficult to lift the front-end.

Shimano equipped bikes no motor issues. This found on Scott and Merida bikes.

Merida bikes zero issues whatever. Extremely reliable with minor creaks easily sorted with normal maintenance.

Scott can't say because there are too few on the trails with us.

Trek uses Bosch so the next paragraph refers. I have no first hand experience on reliability and support as they only started appearing on our trails recently and the bikes that we came across were on demo rides.

Bosch CX Gen-4 equipped bikes apart from the clatter issue too soon to comment on reliability in our market as they just started to appear here. The previous generation were known for bearing and seal replacements but bear in mind that they were around for a very long time and probably did many more miles than any other make. Only time will tell how reliable they are but I can't really criticise the product apart form the clatter that seems to irritate many people.

In the end the best option is to do a proper evaluation of all the bikes that are available in your market. When you select a bike for your needs make sure you do that without any unnecessary influence by people who are fanboys of certain brands because they always have rose-tinted glasses and they never see the weaknesses of their toys. Once you have refined your search based on price, equipment level and actual riding preference, go and look at every forum on those models and search specific for issues that owners picked up and how it is getting sorted. Check if it is something that occurred for a short period of time or whether it is still happening. Some issues like a badly designed and exposed battery connector is not going away until a new model comes out but may not deter you as it is arguably a remotely likely failure. What may work okay on a cross country bike could be catastrophic on an enduro or downhill bike when you are in a very remote area with no regular assistance available if somethin goes wrong. If you never venture there it is not an issue.

The effect of seemingly harmless but irritating issues like a clatter in a motor over certain rough trails when not pedalling, depends on your personality and whether the conditions that you ride in triggers the issue and/or whether you can live with it.

If I had to buy a new bike today I would certainly put the YT Decoy when they will become available here soon and the Merida e160 right at the top of my list because they both are excellent bikes with a very playful nature and are equipped with the Shimano motor which right now seems to be one of the two most reliable motors around. (Shimano and Yamaha). There are just no reports of failures on these motors and the designs of these bikes are robust and rail ready. The direct to market model while providing excellent value however my well in the end deter me from going for the Decoy.

Hope this provides some honest and unbiased input although criticism can always be interpreted as bias ? at least I criticise the weaknesses of my own bike as well ?? and I really try to be objective.

 

[Madmountainman]

I have no preference to any manufacturer and, as per Wernher's previous post, would prefer my bike to have the Shimano motor. The Merida's are nice bikes but, as per the OP's original post on this thread, he's asking about bikes for bigger riders. Bigger means both weight and/or height. To that end, the Merida's geometry is too cramped for taller riders and the all up weight limit is only 140kgs, leaving only 118kg's for the rider, fully kitted. The YT comes in at 10kg's more capacity, but is still tight in the cockpit space for us taller riders. If they lengthened the Decoy so it matched the Heckler in XXL, i'd be testing one as, although direct to consumer, the risk of returning is mitigated somewhat by their use of the Shimano motor.
The Heckler's a really nice bike, but at least two grand too expensive compared to its similarly specced competition and doesn't have an option for 29er's.
The 2020 Level R is well specced for the money, runs 29er's, but has the unproven Gen 4 Bosch.
The lowest price i've seen the Remote 160 for sale in the UK, is £4250, which is cracking value. It comes with 27.5 wheels, but can run 29, has superboost rear spacing for extra strength/rigidity and runs the Shimano motor. Unfortunately, at present, it still runs a spoke magnet. I would hope that the 2021 bike's will have a disc integrated magnet, will have the option of a 29er model and, even better, may well come with the rumoured new Shimano motor and battery. It has a rider weight limit of 136kg, fully kitted and roomy geometry for taller riders. I've not been able to ride one in XL as yet but, on paper, it's at the top of my list.
I've been told both the Mondraker and Kona will be available in XL some time in April, so i'll wait till then and monitor any new releases from the other manufacturers as well.

 

[knut7]

If you want a bike with more than 500Wh battery capacity and the Shimano motor, there are almost no bikes to chose between. The Focus Jam2 with the tec-pack is ~750Wh, but it's not a very big bike in size XL and the permissable system weight is 120kg. The Decoy 700WH battery isn't available as far as I know. So I'd say you should forget abot the Shimano-motor if you want a bigger battery. If you wait untill fall, we might see bikes with a Shimano motor and 600WH+ battery though.

As far as I remember, the Brose/Spesh motor is not an option? The Yamaha-motor is found on very few bikes, mostly Haibike. Those bikes are max permissable 120kg and 500Wh.

The Giant (Yamaha) motor can be had with a 625Wh battery on the Trance E+ 0 Pro. Not very cheap. I guess sizing is okay. The front end is probably a bit low, swap the handlebars for a 30-40mm riser bar if the bike feels small. Max total 132kg.
Trance E+ 0 Pro 625 Wh (2020) | Männer Trail Bike | Giant Bicycles DE

If not, you're left with Bosch powered bikes, or setteling for a 500Wh battery on a Shimano bike. The external 500Wh battery is pretty lightweight and cheap, so it's a good candidate if you decide to carry a spare battery

 

[Wernher]

On the 500 Wh batteries on the Shimano. It's really not an issue. We climb 1200 meters and 48 to 50 kilos with battery to spare on both the Giant with Yamaha motor and The Merida with Shimano motor. On the Merida you have a very light battery so you can take a spare with giving you a total of 1000 Wh and for 90% of the time on your other rides you have a lighter bike. On your trails here we actually come back via the base before we continue on stage 2 so we just leave on battery on the car and do a quick swap when we go past.

As far as size on the Merida is concerned, I'm really surprised that there are people of 1.9 meters that complain about the sizing. Both my brother and I are exactly 1,89 meets tall which is just about there. We are completely different proportioned though. My torso is very long with short legs and arms whilst he had really long legs and arms and a very short torso. I suspect those of you who complain are the long legged variety ???. Now he is riding the new e160 as well as the previous e160. The new bike is an XL and the old bike is a L. He just now reiterated again the fact that he actually prefers the smaller bike on tight trails. So yeah, I'm honestly surprised. For me the Merida with a extra battery in the back pack is the way to go if I had to buy a new bike today.

 

[Wernher]

On my Trance-e, I made three modifications. 15mm higher Raceface carbon bars with extra spacers to lift it even further. A SR Suntour Durolux 29 Boost R2C2 fork which raised the front a further 30mm due to the higher axle to crown height compared to the Fox 36 Rythm that it came with. The Fox was excellent but the Suntour is awesome and so rigid. I left it at 150mm but can go 170 internally adjustable and now I can fit 29 inch in front.

Other than that I upgraded my rear hub courtesy of Giant to DT Swiss 350 and I went up a size from 2,6 to 2.8 on the back and from Maxxis Rekon to DHR II Eco plus. The Maxxis tyres are a bit suspect though as we've had two fail with beadings that disintegrated. Maxxis replaced both but we'll be switching to Michelen e-Wilds as they have been tested and proven on heavy eMtb's.

My geometry looks as follows now:
With Suntour Boost 29 R2C2 fork
Trail 113,71
Head tube angle 64,75°
Seat tube angle 72,25°
Fork rake 51
Wheelbase 1260

Standard Trance E+2
Trail 109
Head tube angle 66,5°
Seat tube angle 74°
Fork rake 46
Wheelbase 1231

This bike is now a monster and I love it. So if you buy a bike and there are some things you don't particularly like, you can change it with very little capital outlay and you can make it so exactly what you want. My bike now feels bigger inspires more confidence on drops is extremely stable on high speed downhill sections and climbs like nothing else if ever ridden.

I also gained a lot with thinner Stamp 3 Crank Brother composite pedals and the higher front end also lifted the pedals.

I ride a lot of coastal trails with big rocks that we climb and jump off plus some other trails more inland where we climb high mountains and do some fast descends. As well as double black trails with drops, roots ruts etc. This bike does it all now. Only the very tightest switchbacks with drops in sometimes challenge me a bit. Most of you would not even have considered this bike, but I promise you the guys that ride with me are really surprised what a 63 year old does with this bike and I only have 500 Watt Hours. On to of this I'm by far the heaviest guy in our group so don't worry about battery size. And when you run out of battery you can still pedal. They actually pedal quite light ?

 

[R120]

As an FYI the Shimano motor is not immune to problems, several on us on here have had to have replacement ones fitted. Its more reliable Thant the Specilized and the older Bosch units, but its not bulletproof.

 

[Wernher]

As an FYI the Shimano motor is not immune to problems, several on us on here have had to have replacement ones fitted. Its more reliable Thant the Specilized and the older Bosch units, but its not bulletproof.

I have since seen the issues that a group of you guys have experienced. Without more details is difficult to know why although it seems it is related to electronics. In the German forums the people also experienced the same issue and apparently it was sorted when they found out that it was wiring related. Some replaced wires and other noticed that the plug that leads to the display wires wasn't plugged in properly. From what I understand this is very thin and needs to be fully plugged in until it clicks. Regardless that is a pity and hopefully you all got it sorted. On this side 3 Merida e160's touch wood no issues and they are worked quite hard. Two were brought in from Austria when my brother moved back after living in Europe and the third one purchased here locally more recently.

 

[ScuzzII]

Based on my own experience with eMTB's the following that may help in selectin the right bike.

I am very happy with my Giant Trance-e for my type of riding and considering the value proposition, but given the change in what has become available here locally now, I would have opted for the Merida and that is considering that we have Specialized, Trek, Scott among other main stream brands available here now. We are however still very limited in what we get here compared with Europe and the USA.

Just another observation in riding with people on various different brands:

1. Specialized, although a fantastic bike to ride has been marred with issues on motors failing and issues with wiring. Although their warranty is excellent and they stand by their product my friends regularly have to take their bikes in for repairs having to leave them there for weeks at a time and this means they lose riding time. I also found that their battery connectors are vulnerable in rough terrain with rocks damaging the plugs. For that reason alone I am not a fan and will not buy it. Not too well specced for the price with substandard forks and brakes on the cheaper models. Also reports of hub failures.

Giant - Not that exciting but extremely reliable and their warranty and support is very good. It never left me on a trail due to a failure of any kind and whenever something happens it is sorted quickly and without fuss. Standard kit is very well specced with eBike optimised 36 mm forks across the range and four pot calipers on the brakes even on the cheaper models. Its biggest strength is how it climbs with that long chainstay and the Maestro rear suspension keeping that rear wheel gripping like nothing I've ever experienced. Weaknesses include rear hub failures and initially controller failures which were replaced with an upgraded unit and never failed again. Giant even offered me an upgrade from their stock hub to a DT Swiss hub. Geometry not to everybody's liking. Yamaha motor slightly noisy in certain condition. Motor prefers lower cadence than Brose, Shimano and Bosch. Also difficult to lift the front-end.

Shimano equipped bikes no motor issues. This found on Scott and Merida bikes.

Merida bikes zero issues whatever. Extremely reliable with minor creaks easily sorted with normal maintenance.

Scott can't say because there are too few on the trails with us.

Trek uses Bosch so the next paragraph refers. I have no first hand experience on reliability and support as they only started appearing on our trails recently and the bikes that we came across were on demo rides.

Bosch CX Gen-4 equipped bikes apart from the clatter issue too soon to comment on reliability in our market as they just started to appear here. The previous generation were known for bearing and seal replacements but bear in mind that they were around for a very long time and probably did many more miles than any other make. Only time will tell how reliable they are but I can't really criticise the product apart form the clatter that seems to irritate many people.

In the end the best option is to do a proper evaluation of all the bikes that are available in your market. When you select a bike for your needs make sure you do that without any unnecessary influence by people who are fanboys of certain brands because they always have rose-tinted glasses and they never see the weaknesses of their toys. Once you have refined your search based on price, equipment level and actual riding preference, go and look at every forum on those models and search specific for issues that owners picked up and how it is getting sorted. Check if it is something that occurred for a short period of time or whether it is still happening. Some issues like a badly designed and exposed battery connector is not going away until a new model comes out but may not deter you as it is arguably a remotely likely failure. What may work okay on a cross country bike could be catastrophic on an enduro or downhill bike when you are in a very remote area with no regular assistance available if somethin goes wrong. If you never venture there it is not an issue.

The effect of seemingly harmless but irritating issues like a clatter in a motor over certain rough trails when not pedalling, depends on your personality and whether the conditions that you ride in triggers the issue and/or whether you can live with it.

If I had to buy a new bike today I would certainly put the YT Decoy when they will become available here soon and the Merida e160 right at the top of my list because they both are excellent bikes with a very playful nature and are equipped with the Shimano motor which right now seems to be one of the two most reliable motors around. (Shimano and Yamaha). There are just no reports of failures on these motors and the designs of these bikes are robust and rail ready. The direct to market model while providing excellent value however my well in the end deter me from going for the Decoy.

Hope this provides some honest and unbiased input although criticism can always be interpreted as bias ? at least I criticise the weaknesses of my own bike as well ?? and I really try to be objective.

Brilliant Review Wernher. Thank you. Helping me make a decision here in Australia.