Meta Power 27 vs Kenevo Expert - help me decide.

[blackwood]

Hi all. I am on the fence, help me decide. I have a 2020 Kenevo Expert on order, it is supposed to be here in a couple weeks. My wife is starting to give me a hard time about the cost and frankly $8200 is a lot of money. So I am consider a Meta Power 27 instead. The Meta was my second choice.
I really like the looks of the Meta and it has the long travel I want. It also has a better rear shock than the Kenevo. What I like about the Kenevo is the dual crown Boxxer and the new Bros motor and the 700Wh battery.
The battery is my main hang-up. I am a bigger guy, 260lbs, and am concerned about how long the battery will last. I don't really do all-day epics. I am looking for an ebike that can get me to the top of 1000 - 1500 foot climbs (usually fire roads) and then bomb downhill. I just want to make sure I can do 2 or 3 laps on one charge.
Do any of you guys find the 500Wh battery limiting? Any regrets with going with the Meta? Is the Kenevo really worth $2400 more?

 

[Doomanic]

How about a Kenevo Comp plus a battery upgrade? Or a Commencal with a second battery?

As a heftier rider, you need to make sure you can get a spring to suit the coil shock too.
Spring Calculator - TF Tuned

 

[wepn]

How about an X-Wing with an extra battery?
The Meta looks like a great bike too.

 

[Zimmerframe]

You're only round the corner (400 miles) from @Swan .. Might be able to hook you up with a forum members special on an X-wing ?

 

[slippery pete]

If you're doing laps, the Commencal battery is removable with a quarter turn. Commencal with a spare battery is still massively cheaper than a Kenevo expert but you'll need Commencal to supply a spare battery cover too.

As batteries age you don't get as much capacity, so what you get day 1 will fade over the time you own the bike. A bigger battery, once old, will still be a bigger battery. Typically they talk about 60% capacity after 1000 charge cycles. 1000 is a lot.

In pure mathematical terms, 504Wh gives you 4250 ft of climbing, lifting 260lbs + 53lb bike up that much vertical. There is your own pedalling input to add to that. If your input covers you for riding as if on the flat, the battery power then can be calculated to cover you for the vertical climb. So ~ 3 laps.

On an aged 504Wh battery that drops to 2560ft so a little under 2 laps.

700Wh would be 5900ft so ~ 4 laps. Aged, that would drop to 3500ft so ~2.5 laps.

Again, depending on how much effort you put in, your results will vary. These are indicative numbers based on simple math and lots of assumptions that might be a worst case. Obviously the spare battery scenario with the Commencal gives you double the total climbing from the single battery but you have to take into account not getting caught out three quarters of the way up a lap with a flat battery.

Also consider the Boxxer on the Kenevo for your use. Being dual crown is a bonus for a big guy. The stock tune on the Boxxer Select RC will probably be better than the stock tune on the Charger 2.1 Lyrik Ultimate. The Charger 2.1 RC2 blows off high speed compression at very low values even on the maximum HSC setting. That may mean the Lyrik would push you to find an aftermarket tune.

 

[Trail-Niels]

@blackwood You'll get more bike for your money on the Commencal, as it for the $5800 it's better specced than the Kenevo, you'll get Eagle 1x12 drivetrain, and Code RSC brakes and wider DT Swiss rims. For an additional battery ad a $40 cover you still have more than you'll get with the Kenevo.

 

[R120]

Or to throw another bike into the mix, how about the new Whyte E-180RS, 620wh battery

E-180 RS

Big travel brawler, with added range

 

[Doomanic]

In pure mathematical terms, 504Wh gives you 4250 ft of climbing, lifting 260lbs + 53lb bike up that much vertical. There is your own pedalling input to add to that. If your input covers you for riding as if on the flat, the battery power then can be calculated to cover you for the vertical climb. So ~ 3 laps.

What maths is that? Most climbing I have managed on a single charge is 3500 feet over a distance of 17.5 miles. Bosch 482Wh battery.

 

[slippery pete]

What maths is that? Most climbing I have managed on a single charge is 3500 feet over a distance of 17.5 miles. Bosch 482Wh battery.

1. Convert to SI units so you don't go insane
2. mass x acceleration due to gravity = energy per vertical distance
3. energy stored in battery / (2.) = vertical distance

Big caveat mentioned: "your results will vary"

Takes no account of efficiencies or rider input.

 

[Swan]

You're only round the corner (400 miles) from @Swan .. Might be able to hook you up with a forum members special on an X-wing ?

For the comp Xwings they only have L left.. Still a few in the Experts.. We definitely could order one if interested. That price posted on the consumer site is probably as good as it gets. Margins are pretty thin on these bikes.


I am a bigger dude at 215lbs and I get about 3k feet out of my 500w battery on my 50lb Levo in the trail mode. It's definitely not a full day rig, but a good few hours. If I steal the battery out of the wife's bike too, the 2 500w batteries gets me a full day of riding 6k feet or so.

 

[wepn]

If I steal the battery out of the wife's bike too, the 2 500w batteries gets me a full day of riding 6k feet or so.

Yes 2 x 504 Wh batteries would be a great way to ride lighter & still get your climb requirements. Also if you only ever charge them to 80% max & not discharge below say 10% and by using the 2, lighten the depth of discharge on both.

You could then expect at least 1,500 useful charge cycles from each one - in reality way more than 3,000 total useful charge cycles and the benefit of riding with a battery that weighs 700 grams less than the 700 Wh one.

 

[Swan]

Yes 2 x 504 Wh batteries would be a great way to ride lighter & still get your climb requirements. Also if you only ever charge them to 80% max & not discharge below say 10% and by using the 2, lighten the depth of discharge on both.

You could then expect at least 1,500 useful charge cycles from each one - in reality way more than 3,000 total useful charge cycles and the benefit of riding with a battery that weighs 700 grams less than the 700 Wh one.

I'll be honest here.. I am a bike shop dude.. I rarely keep bikes for a full year before flipping them. I have zero regrets about riding mine until they are dead and then charging them to 100% because I know that I'll run it out again in the next week. And the 500w +500w setup works for now, but I have a 700w on order.. I plan on it being enough for most of my rides and having the 500w for if I go totally huge.. I have done 10k foot days on my analog bike before, so I expect to do the same on the ebike.

 

[Doomanic]

A thought occurred to me today, while scorching up a hill in Turbo ( )...

Whilst charging an individual cell to a lower voltage will increase the number of charges over charging to full voltage it will mean that when using the supplied charger to charge a pack of cells that the balance phase will be missed out. I suspect that could be equally harmful to the cells in the pack as charging to 100%. Thoughts?

 

[spacemonkey]

Would be nice to have a comparison between Commencal SX - Kenevo .
Looks of the commencal are killer. I have a meta race 27, bought an extra battery, it's amazing, doing days of 3000m up.
Shimano motor is good, but not as good as brose. But more reliable (they say). Well compared to my Levo before it's much more reliable (but i suppose those problems are solved and specialized service is topnotch)
Isn't this double crown fork overkill? How about getting it through tight enduro style switchbacks?
I would go commencal for now....due to components, but both are so tightly matched geo wise....it's difficult

 

[blackwood]

Hey all, thanks for the replies and comments. I cancelled my Kenevo pre-order today and have a Meta SX on the way, should be here this weekend (and ordered a 650lbs spring too). I plan to buy a second battery but they are out of stock now so that will have to wait until spring. I am feeling good about my decision so far. All-in-all I like the Meta better, it has a better part spec plus I was never a huge Specialized fan (still rocking my 2004 P.2 though), hopefully I won't miss the newer Bros motor and 700Wh battery or the dual crown fork.
Can't wait to hit my backyard jump.

 

[R120]

As an FYI you can buy the 180mm RS Boxxer aftermarket

BoXXer Select

 

[wepn]

A thought occurred to me today, while scorching up a hill in Turbo ( )...

Whilst charging an individual cell to a lower voltage will increase the number of charges over charging to full voltage it will mean that when using the supplied charger to charge a pack of cells that the balance phase will be missed out. I suspect that could be equally harmful to the cells in the pack as charging to 100%. Thoughts?

I don’t anything is as detrimental to calendar ageing as charging to 100% and leaving it in that fully charged state.

But your premise holds true - why not enlighten us - the riders who pay a lot for batteries - on the importance of the Balance phase & at what point in the SOC % it commences.

It seems to be mostly that the balance phase commences at or very close to 100% SOC although It’s very possible with more advanced BMS’s, the balance occurs earlier. A Balance phase indicator LED or a simple statement in the manual that goes further than this from the Specialized manual would be useful:

The Battery Management System (BMS) is designed to protect a fully discharged battery from damage for a period of time. However, in order to maintain the best possible battery performance and lifespan, Specialized recommends regularly recharging the battery to at least 3⁄4 full (7 LEDs).

 

[Jdog]

Buy a 2020 Kenevo.

You can upgrade bike parts and even batteries/buy a spare but you cannot upgrade a motor and the Brose is the best on the market!

 

[spacemonkey]

Buy a 2020 Kenevo.

You can upgrade bike parts and even batteries/buy a spare but you cannot upgrade a motor and the Brose is the best on the market!

I agree...it's the best motor (when it works...), but the Shimano is also very good and very tunable and very reliable. I don't need more power (torque)....i just put it on US settings, gets me 32 km/h, is all i need for enduro.

 

[Zimmerframe]

I agree...it's the best motor (when it works...), but the Shimano is also very good and very tunable and very reliable. I don't need more power (torque)....i just put it on US settings, gets me 32 km/h, is all i need for enduro.

I think they're both pretty good. The Shimano is considerably more complicated electronically as the Brose stuff's the electronics (brains) separately into the TCU. But still, the Shimano is technically more advanced I think.

The brose is considerably quieter, but the Shimano noise is not an issue or "loud".

On paper, the brose has more power. In the real world, there's not that much difference.

For me, the Brose delivers the power in a more controllable manner, is smoother and I feel has a slightly stronger power curve.

Trail mode on the E8000 is fantastic, but can be semi replicated with Blevo/eGenesis on the brose.

Tuning wise you can in theory up the torque and the power on the Shimano. I did a brief experiment with 500% assistance and 550w for a ride, though this only seemed to make the power delivery harsher and only gave about 2% performance improvements - this probably has a huge detriment to motor life.

Reliability wise, I think they're probably both ballpark similar. Both can fail.

Future wise, I think the E8000 looks easier to strip and re-build if you have bearing problems. The E7000 sounds like a throwaway. The brose is slightly difficult because of obtaining parts, but people will re-build them. (bearingman)

Down the line it looks like the Brose motors will be cheaper to buy out of guarantee because they are simpler, with Spesh selling early ones now for about £400. (There was a thread on this). The Shimano's are most likely going to cost more than this just due to their complexity.

For real world day to day riding, I think choosing the bike you prefer/is right for you, will have more of an impact than which of the two motors you go for.

 

[R120]

The 3 main motors IMO are now much of a muchness now, the bike they are in is far more important, in that it fits you, is suited to your riding, and the way you have to maintain it (eg battery removable or not) in relation to how you use it are more important.

the key is that when you are out the motors don’t impinge on your enjoyment, if you are constantly fiddling with your setting and power modes then I think that your overthinking things.

I just put my bike in Trail mode and go ride, out it in Eco if I am running low on battery and getting range anxiety to get home.
for me how the bike rides when you are not pedalling is just as important.