Looking for advice on FF or SL eMTB

[mart1nn]

Hello guys
A bit of a backstory but I believe it gives some context so here it goes. Been riding a bike more actively for the last 4-5 years or so. A safe and semi-confident rider (definitely want to improve my jumping, but I can ride the black trails around here in Denmark safely. Currently on a 2014 Norco Range Carbon.
The bike basically requires a lot of maintenance. I mean it runs, but there are a lot of small(ish) things that irritate me during my rides and I kind of suspect having some structural issue in the frame since I see a lot of paint/lacquer cracks at a certain place. This + wanting to ride more in the same time interval (family, work, etc ...) makes me consider picking up an eMTB.
I have always had an eye on Specialized as a very popular brand and Canyon as a very nice price/spec deal. This is why my current short list is:
- almost new Turbo Levo Expert (300km) - 6.7k EUR
- almost new Turbo Levo SL Comp Carbon gen 2 (100km) - 6.7k EUR
- brand new Spectral:ON CF8 - 5.7k EUR

I currently don't have a riding crew (post lockdown most of the guys went back to doing other things) and would be interested in joining some social rides and finding new buddies. This is where the FF vs SL question occurs - is the SL too slow to be in a FF group? I know it all comes to the rider, but I am looking for any input. On the other hand - is FF too heavy to do stuff on the trails like small jumps, wheelies, etc., or does one get used to the weight?

The Specialized vs Canyon thing - basically I do not find a good spec for the Spectral. The CF7 seems like a bike I would like to change brakes and probably suspension right away. The CF8 has good suspension but Shimano brakes (on all the bikes I have tested I really can't figure them out ... they seem so different than my own SRAM brakes). So even if the 1k EUR difference seems like a no brainer I am afraid I would end up with a bike I do not enjoy before I spend some money on upgrades on.

The short list is not final and I am looking for other suggestions as well.

TLDR: Confused about SL vs FF and riding a SL in a FF group potentially. Looking for input on eMTBs that should be in my radar if considering getting a new bike now.

 

[Tooks]

Welcome to the forum!

First thing I’d say is that I’m not sure how manufacturers are getting away with describing any EMTB as ‘Super Light’…

19kgs with pedals on a base Turbo Levo SL for instance is still nearly 42lbs, and ok a base Levo Alloy is around 23.5kg so nearly 52lbs and you might notice those extra 10lbs or you might not. You might notice the lower power and range of the SL bikes more, you might not, it really depends on the way you ride.

I’ve got a ’FF’ base Levo alloy, and I’ve had a love/hate relationship with it. At first I loved the smooth torque of the motor and the magic carpet ride, even on the stock suspension, but then I had a couple of minor spills and started to really lose confidence in it. I also ride a 378Wh Focus Jam 2 which is much closer to the weight of the current lower end ’SL’ type bikes, which does feel more lively and nimble than the Levo.

However, on some trails the Levo feels far more capable, and is a good bike to ride long distances even with its 500Wh battery. If I do a longer ride on the Focus, then I fix a range extender to it (252Wh) and then it loses a lot of its small weight advantage.

Why am I waffling on like this? Well, my advice is to try and ride the bikes you’re interested in and not just a scoot around the shops car park etc, but a proper few hours in the saddle. Many places hire bikes you might be interested in, at least here in the UK anyway. The SL vs FF debate is all about compromise really, lighter weight generally means a lower power motor/smaller battery, and therefore less assistance and lower range. The ‘FF’ bikes nowadays are 700Wh+ batteries with 90Nm motors, but of course adjustable down, but are heavier than comparable SL models.

Personally, I’ve had to adapt my riding a little to get the Levo working properly for me and how I ride. I have learnt that I need to weight the front wheel a little more to get it biting into the terrain, traditionally I’ve liked a bike that feels ‘poppy’ with the front easier to get in the air. I’ve had to learn a slightly different technique for that on the Levo and using the motor torque to do some of that lifting. It’s fun, and I’m really warming to it now.

Sorry for the long post, but I’d just reiterate that there’s no substitute for riding as many bikes for as long as you can before reflecting and matching where and how you ride (and who with) to the bike that you felt happiest on. Personally, I think it makes most sense to go for the heavier bike with the more powerful motor and bigger battery (it’s an e-bike after all) and then dial it back if necessary. Others will prefer the opposite, and there are some ‘light’ SL bikes out there but none of them seem particularly ‘cheap’, and some of the newer FF disguise the weight well.

We’re back to test riding aren’t we really!

 

[p3eps]

It all comes down to you, and what you feel... but I'll give you a quick summary of my circumstances.

I'm 45, rode a lot as a kid... and when I was 17 I got a car, girls, nights out etc - and my bike sat in the shed for years unloved and untouched! At about 32, I went cycling with my father in-law on his old bike and found a love for it again. Got myself a new Specialized Stumpjumper, and started riding most weeks. A couple of Stumpjumpers later, and it's the beginning of 2020 - and I now have 2 young children... and ride at least once a week.
I'd been looking at eMTB's for about 6 months, and decided to take the plunge - and after a lot of humming and haying, I bought a new Trek Rail 9.9 (with no test ride). I rode it on all my trails, and flew up them. The bike was about 22.5kg, but felt like a monster compared to my 13kg Stumpy. I rode it in Eco, as I didn't 'need' any more assistance - I just wanted a little help.

2 weeks into my ownership, the Specialized Levo SL was announced. I was kicking myself, as this was more like the sort of bike I'd been looking for. I "rented" the LBS's demo model the day after launch (first person to ride it!) and spent all day on it. One lot of trails in the morning, home for lunch / charge, then away to other trails. The brakes were a bit rubbish - but apart from that, this was definitely the bike for me. It was much more manoeuvrable... and at just over 18kg's, it was easier to lift over fences and onto my bike rack. It had more than enough power for me, as I was just looking for a little bit of help. It couldn't romp up the rocky sections like the Rail could, but that wasn't my reason for wanting an eMTB. I just wanted to go a bit further and not feel quite so knackered at the top of the climbs.

Thankfully, the shop I'd bought the Rail from had a 30 day money back satisfaction guarantee... so I was able to return the Rail and get the Levo SL Expert. They applied the same 15% discount to the LSL, so I ended up with a significant amount of store credit as the Rail was a much better specced bike... so I used that credit to upgrade to AXS shifting, AXS dropper, new fork & better brakes. Over the 3 years I owned that bike, I upgraded every part on it! The result of that was the bike being 17.5kgs.

The Levo SL 1.2 came out a few months back, and although my LSL 1,1 was great, I bought the frameset for the 1.2 and swapped over all my parts. I ended up upgrading half of them too! The LSL 1.2 is a much better all round bike for me. Sure, the motor has a little bit more in the tank, and is quieter... but the bike just feels nicer to ride / descend on. Perhaps some of this is due to me coming down a size, as I always felt like my XL LSL 1.1 was a little big for me.

I ride the bike in my own custom Eco setting - 15/35 - which is giving me approximately 15% ontop of my own legs. I have the ability to put it up to 100% at the touch of a button if I get to a technical climb and think I'm not going to make it... or if I want to get a couple of runs down a specific downhill trail and my legs feel knackered! I also have 2 x Range Extenders that I can pop on if I want to go for a super long ride, or spend an afternoon going up and down the same trail. Without the RE's I can get about 30-40 miles out of the standard battery on my setting - depending on the amount of elevation.

Currently, my LSL 1.2 is sitting in the bike stand with no wheels (away back to i9 for replacement) and no fork (away for a service) - so I spent the weekend on my 2017 Stumpjumper 6-Fattie. The bike feels so light and so poppy. I can jump it much easier, bunnyhop higher, and throw it into the corners better. My LSL 1.2 is currently 17.1kg, and my Stumpy is about 13.5kg - and that 3.5kg is soooo noticeable.

To me anyway, there is a huge difference between an 18kg bike and a 23kg bike. I wanted a bike that rode a bit like my Stumpy, but with a bit of assistance - and that's what I got with the LSL. If you're looking for something to catapult you up the hills with minimal effort, then get a FF bike with a big battery and enjoy the speed!

As above - the best thing to do is see if you can trial the bikes on trails you normally ride and see what you think. There have been a load of people switching from FF bikes to SL bikes over the last year or 2 now that manufacturer's are giving more options... but I don't see so many SL riders swapping to FF bikes.

 

[mart1nn]

Thank you both for your replies! I tried both Specialized bikes at a recent demo event. I spent around 45min on each but not on a trail - just some cyclepaths around their shop. Tried a few things like bunnyhop (not good at it in general), wheelie, stoppie, etc. and felt that the FF was too heavy (or maybe better said that the front was heavier than expected). I rode the FF in eco like 90% of the time. Tried a few hills where the turbo was waaaaay too much, but then again it wasn't that big of a gradient. The SL felt more natural and I could at least do *A* bunnyhop. Felt like it wasn't the motor that was propelling the bike, but it was more of an assistance.

I guess a certain deal of my uncertainty (lol) is that I do not have a crew right now and would be interested in broadening my possibilities to find a new one. Is the SL a complete no-go in FF groups? As it looks right now I ride alone so either bike would work just fine. I am not selling my old bike (not worth the hassle) but realistically it would be a loaner when I get someone to visit or something. I am looking at covering more loops of the same trail for the same amount of time while getting better (could be both time and skill wise). So if let's say I can do 3 loops on my normal bike and not feel like going up for the 4th becouse my legs are wasted I would be able to do 5 maybe more. Would the SL be sufficient? I have no health issues that disturb me of riding and although not being in my best shape I am somewhat capable of riding the trails around me.

I am assuming that if I figure out that I want to ride with some dudes that have FF and I cannot keep up with then I could sell the bike, eat the L, save up and get another bike. I am just not used to selling and shopping for bikes that often. I tend to stick to what I have for a while.

 

[G-Sport]

It depends on the group. I love my First Gen Levo SL and can ride with push-bikes and FF e-bikes OK. It tends to be that those still on push bikes are super fit, and so if I put the SL in a low Eco mode we get along fine. Those on FF bikes (at lease here) tend to be just a little less fit, but also range constrained. A FF bike uses slightly more energy to go a given distance and height than an SL (in my admittedly limited experience) so unless they are carrying spare batteries they still need to watch their assist to do a big ride. I undoubtedly have to work a little harder than them, but I'm fine with that. When it comes to the fun stuff I am always glad I went SL.

 

[rod9301]

I was in France this whole winter and looked at e bikes.

I wouldn't buy a specialized.
Lots of European bike around 4k. Scott and others. Also, get one with a Bosch motor, much more reliable

 

[mart1nn]

I was in France this whole winter and looked at e bikes.

I wouldn't buy a specialized.
Lots of European bike around 4k. Scott and others. Also, get one with a Bosch motor, much more reliable

Can you provide some example models? I have looked into Trek Rail before, but somehow I do not like the "big brand attitude". Direct to consumer brands like Canyon and Propain tend to be using Shimano motors and my research shows they could be a PITA to deal with in terms of warranty.


@G-Sport, funny how mixed the opinions are on this. Some say "no way you can keep up" and I just cannot make my mind. I am not buying the bike because I cannot do the climbing, but want to do it faster so I can "cheat" myself to the fun stuff. Guess I am going to switch my question - can you achieve more riding in the same time on the SL or is it just a tool that help you climb things you otherwise could not do?

 

[p3eps]

Thank you both for your replies! I tried both Specialized bikes at a recent demo event. I spent around 45min on each but not on a trail - just some cyclepaths around their shop. Tried a few things like bunnyhop (not good at it in general), wheelie, stoppie, etc. and felt that the FF was too heavy (or maybe better said that the front was heavier than expected). I rode the FF in eco like 90% of the time. Tried a few hills where the turbo was waaaaay too much, but then again it wasn't that big of a gradient. The SL felt more natural and I could at least do *A* bunnyhop. Felt like it wasn't the motor that was propelling the bike, but it was more of an assistance.

I guess a certain deal of my uncertainty (lol) is that I do not have a crew right now and would be interested in broadening my possibilities to find a new one. Is the SL a complete no-go in FF groups? As it looks right now I ride alone so either bike would work just fine. I am not selling my old bike (not worth the hassle) but realistically it would be a loaner when I get someone to visit or something. I am looking at covering more loops of the same trail for the same amount of time while getting better (could be both time and skill wise). So if let's say I can do 3 loops on my normal bike and not feel like going up for the 4th becouse my legs are wasted I would be able to do 5 maybe more. Would the SL be sufficient? I have no health issues that disturb me of riding and although not being in my best shape I am somewhat capable of riding the trails around me.

I am assuming that if I figure out that I want to ride with some dudes that have FF and I cannot keep up with then I could sell the bike, eat the L, save up and get another bike. I am just not used to selling and shopping for bikes that often. I tend to stick to what I have for a while.

I’m mainly a solo rider, so the SL works fine for me. I occasionally have friends on analogue bikes - where I’d either take my Stumpy, or sometimes one of them is using my stumpy, so I dial the SL down to 5/5 (which covers extra weight / motor resistance).
I ride with my kids on the SL… but with it off completely. They’re 4 & 8, so it’s no trouble keeping up with them (just now!!)

I’ve been out with my neighbour on his FF derestricted bike too… but he rides it at a mid setting, and I’m a lot fitter than him. If he stuck it in Turbo, my fitness advantage wouldn’t make a difference - and I’d be left behind.

I wouldn't buy a specialized.

I’ve had 7 Specialized bikes in the last 13 years, have bought 4 for my daughter, and 1 for my son.
My local dealer are Specialized, and the warranty / service on them is top notch. I say warranty, but I’ve rarely needed to use it.

I guess you have to take what’s available in your area into consideration. No point buying a bike online if you need to travel 200 miles for a warranty issue.

 

[G-Sport]

@G-Sport, funny how mixed the opinions are on this. Some say "no way you can keep up" and I just cannot make my mind. I am not buying the bike because I cannot do the climbing, but want to do it faster so I can "cheat" myself to the fun stuff. Guess I am going to switch my question - can you achieve more riding in the same time on the SL or is it just a tool that help you climb things you otherwise could not do?

That's an easy one, ABSOLUTELY. Large part of the reason I got mine. Solo rides on it are great, on a group ride you can chat on the climbs but when solo you just want to blast through them. There is a loop I have done on both push-bike and SLEbike several times which is out the door from home. 21 miles and 3000feet of climb (85% off road). 3 hours+ on the push bike and really felt it the next day. 2 hours on the SLEeb and although it still felt like I'd had a workout I was fine the next day. That's without the range extender and using about 80% of the battery in a 50:80 trail mode which feels like a good amount of help (I weigh about 70kgs).
So if you just have a 1 or 2 hour window the SL is perfect to get 50%+ more done in the time, you will get just as much exercise and work just as hard, but you will go faster and get more descents in.

If the FF riders stick it in full power mode for the duration and are only doing a 10 mile 1500feet loop then you will probably regret getting the SL. If they are out for the day and doing 20+ miles and not carrying (or looping back to) spare batteries then they will have to go more easily and the SL will probably be manageable.
If there are a lot of climbs that are just out of reach of the SL power/torque and they can all blast through them on FFs then again you may get left behind, but I usually find that techy climbs are more successful with the power dialed back a bit so you keep traction.

Downhill, jumps, bunnyhops, tight tech, braking, wet/muddy conditions, lifting over gates or carrying; the SL wins hands down.

 

[Albertocsoares]

I am 59, 1.75m, 75kg.

I cycled many years with normal bikes as a second sport, 2 years ago I bought a Specialized SL, at that time my group was divided between normal, SL and full power bikes.

As time went by, my friends bought full power bikes and I started to use the maximum power of my SL more and more to follow them. Normally they have to wait for me on long stretches of climbs, but this ended up putting me in better physical shape by always striving to keep up with them.

Today my SL has 8000km, I carried out routine maintenance on the shock absorbers and wear materials but the batteries and motors are 100%.

I recently used a full power as my SL was in the workshop and I was impressed with how little effort I needed to make. I'm very inclined to continue with SL, probably with Specialized as the service I have for the brand is fantastic.

 

[jimslade]

@mart1nn search the forum on FF vs SL. There have been quite a few threads on the topic... I've posted my own story several times. I went from Stumpjumper to Levo to SL. The FF is a pig. You'll definitely notice the extra 10 pounds.
You say you mostly ride solo and are hoping to find a group to ride with.... why maximize for that 'maybe someday' group? You should maximize for what you are going to do most of the time. I love the maneuverability of the SL and get all the help I need for 1-4hr mountain rides, but can still easily jump and whatnot like my Stumpy.

I have ridden with FFs before. Yes, they do have to wait at the top for me, no different than a better rider riding with someone with less power/fitness. They can also just turn it down and work a little more when they are with me.
Consider that Specialized describes the SL as '2x you' and the FF as '4x you'. At '2x you', you are roughly on par with a professional MTBer in climbing power. For me the SL is the perfect balance of getting help on steep climbs while still getting exercise while I'm out riding.

 

[Onetime]

All those responses are tldr. All you need to know is FF

 

[Doomanic]

All those responses are tldr. All you need to know is SL...

 

[COrider]

I just went through this process and I decided on full fat. My final decision was based off of the fact that I intend to keep my “acoustic” bike which is a 130mm travel on both ends and fairly lightweight. I figured I would get something that was a completely different experience than the regular bike. Went full power and 160mm travel both ends.

I feel like if I was to go down to one bike I would have gone SL. Mainly in hopes of maintaining some of the playfulness of my lightweight bike while getting around more quickly.

The only bike I tested was a full fat and I had so much fun and enjoyed the power so much I stopped searching. Unfortunately I can’t compare the ride qualities of a ff to a sl for you.

 

[Doomanic]

As someone with both I can say that the SL is better to ride downhill and FF is better to ride uphill.

As far as keeping up with FF riders on an SL goes I can say you won't. My Rail is more powerful in Eco than my SL in Turbo so it's hard enough to keep up if the people you ride with are sympathetic. If they are TBTTs (two battery turbo twats, like one of my mates was) and ride everywhere in Turbo you won't stand a chance.

My regular riding buddies were all on FF until the TBTT bought a Kenevo SL. As he was the sole reason I hadn't bought one already I quickly did the same. Now we're all on KSLs with one lucky bugger owning a KSL and an LSL2 and considering a Heckler SL. Occasionally we're joined by folk on FFs but they have the choice of riding at our pace or riding alone. Equally, if I ride with my local club (rare as it's a bit tame) I ride at their pace.

 

[mart1nn]

I ended up with the FF. A bit of a long story but basically a shady seller of the SL is the main reason for getting the FF Levo. First ride is due today.

I bought the FF well knowing that I might end up selling it if eMTB is not something for me ("free" lift to the top of the trail ... who am I kidding). Assuming FF is more established I would have easier time selling this and getting a SL if I feel like I need one. If I could only have one bike I would probably get SL, but since I am keeping the old one (too old to get anything worth my time spent selling it) I believe it is good to have the two full extreme options.

I knew that the acquisition would end up being based on subjective things rather than objective inputs from you guys but I am thankful for every single opinion I got. At least it confirmed that my assumptions about the eMTB scene is right.