Little-known reason why Specialized is the only real choice for fitness tracking...

[rsilvers]

One of the reasons people give for hating ebikes is that it is cheating and you have no idea how much work you are doing and how much the motor is doing. The Specialized fixed that by having a human wattage meter that uploads to Strava. It shows your input wattage and calories burned. This allows you to race a segment and compare it to your previous attempts for effort, *even if* you used different amounts of assist each time. That is huge to me, as I can compare my efforts.

For example, I may use "Turbo Mode" on one run, and "Economy Mode" on another run, and average 150 watts of human input on the Turbo Mode run and 120 watts on the Economy Mode run. I will have the data to see that I worked harder on the Economy Mode one. I just can't overstate how much I love that, and a big reason to get a Specialized over a bike that doesn't do this. Though arguably I could get a power meter crank on another brand of eBike, but it would cost about $650 to add that.

 

[HikerDave]

One of the reasons people give for hating ebikes is that it is cheating and you have no idea how much work you are doing and how much the motor is doing. The Specialized fixed that by having a human wattage meter that uploads to Strava. It shows your input wattage and calories burned. This allows you to race a segment and compare it to your previous attempts for effort, *even if* you used different amounts of assist each time. That is huge to me, as I can compare my efforts.

For example, I may use "Turbo Mode" on one run, and "Economy Mode" on another run, and average 150 watts of human input on the Turbo Mode run and 120 watts on the Economy Mode run. I will have the data to see that I worked harder on the Economy Mode one. I just can't overstate how much I love that, and a big reason to get a Specialized over a bike that doesn't do this. Though arguably I could get a power meter crank on another brand of eBike, but it would cost about $650 to add that.

My lowly Haibike with Yamaha PW-SE will pair with Strava on my phone or with Garmin Edge 530/830 to record human power. When I sometimes borrow an Edge from my employer, Garmin, I usually set the display to a customized Heart Rate / Power screen.

 

[rsilvers]

Nice. Any other ones also do it?
Giant?

 

[Kim]

I think the rider wattage is near reality, but I doubt engine watt is correct. I would assume its just voltage*amp drawn from the battery. If so prob around 30% less watt motor output.

 

[Gary]

I will have the data

what exactly are you doing with the "data" though?

I'd never ride an Ebike if I was seriously interested in training to get fitter/faster.

 

[rsilvers]

I just look for my average human watts and use it as a measure of my effort. Maybe I will try to average over 160 watts on a particular route as a goal. Then I can feel free to any boost that I want without feeling like I am cheating. Because, I am use my average watts rather than the elapsed time as my measure of effort.

 

[Gary]

160w isn't even a vaguely hard effort on a non E bike.
[Edit: for a strong heavy rider]

 

[Fivetones]

I’d argue that you can monitor and use data to get fit on any bike, ebike included.

For various reasons some people can only get out on ebikes (disabilities, age etc) so I wouldn’t knock that either. You do whatever works for you.

However, if using data in any great detail you do need to have a defined programme to get fit. I prefer to get out, forget that, and have fun in th hills. I think this might be what your getting at Gary.

As for training to watts, fair play. However, that’s not the only way to train.

 

[rsilvers]

160w isn't even a vaguely hard effort on a non E bike.

That depends on your V02Max and weight. If it is not even a little effort for you, you probably weigh more than 64kg.

160 is full race wattage for a Cat-5 level rider of my weight. It is for sure a lot of effort for me to run at 160 for some hours. My HR would be about 160 or so out of my max which is about 180.

Rider categorization based on FTP — how do you rank?

 

[rsilvers]

As for training to watts, fair play. However, that’s not the only way to train.

Good point. With any eBike you can just look at average heart rate as a measure of your effort no matter the boost setting. But, with a power meter, I can track my heart rate relative to the average watts and see how I am improving. You can compare average HR to time on a regular bike, but with en eBike, you can't do that due to the bike's power contribution.

 

[Fivetones]

Good point. With any eBike you can just look at average heart rate as a measure of your effort no matter the boost setting. But, with a power meter, I can track my heart rate relative to the average watts and see how I am improving. You can compare average HR to time on a regular bike, but with en eBike, you can't do that due to the bike's power contribution.

I was sceptical but I think you’ve won me over.

It might not be a feature I crave but for many a very nice to have then on the Specialized.

 

[Gary]

That depends on your V02Max and weight. If it is not even a little effort for you, you probably weigh more than 64kg.

Ah.. yeah.
I hadn't even thought of rider weight.
I'm around 90kg so 160w is fairly small change.

 

[Slowroller]

One of the reasons people give for hating ebikes is that it is cheating

Blames haters for calling ebikers cheaters

Then I can feel free to any boost that I want without feeling like I am cheating.

Worries about cheating

Just ride man and have fun.

 

[rsilvers]

Ah.. yeah.
I hadn't even thought of rider weight.
I'm around 90kg so 160w is fairly small change.

So 160 watts for me - which is what I can do on a ride of up to a few hours - is how 225 watts feels for you, assuming we have the same V02 max, but probably yours is higher also, and mine is just like an average persons. For shorter rides, like a 30 minute one, I can probably average 230 watts, which would be like 325 if I were 90Kg.

 

[rsilvers]

Just ride man and have fun.

That would be nice if I could just not overthink everything. You made me try to imagine for a minute what it would be like to literally just go for a fun ride. I have probably never done that or maybe if I have, just a few times. I usually have a training goal in mine with certain metrics to follow.

 

[highpeakrider]

I’m not exactly sure it’s a pure measurement of performance?
How are you measuring the variables?
So you may use more watts but be slower, depending on same hill, same conditions, same weight of bike, same physical condition, same gear selection.
You may actually be faster.

Define your performance measures based on all the variables.

Mine are simply did I enjoy the ride and accept some times I enjoy it more than other days, I’m human not a machine that has to perform within a defined parameter.

 

[rsilvers]

It's a measure of effort, not of results.

But no, enjoying the ride is not my goal. I exercise for fitness and weight control, and enjoy it to some degree. Biking I enjoy more than running, but find it harder to burn calories.

 

[khorn]

One of the reasons people give for hating ebikes is that it is cheating and you have no idea how much work you are doing and how much the motor is doing. The Specialized fixed that by having a human wattage meter that uploads to Strava. It shows your input wattage and calories burned. This allows you to race a segment and compare it to your previous attempts for effort, *even if* you used different amounts of assist each time. That is huge to me, as I can compare my efforts.

For example, I may use "Turbo Mode" on one run, and "Economy Mode" on another run, and average 150 watts of human input on the Turbo Mode run and 120 watts on the Economy Mode run. I will have the data to see that I worked harder on the Economy Mode one. I just can't overstate how much I love that, and a big reason to get a Specialized over a bike that doesn't do this. Though arguably I could get a power meter crank on another brand of eBike, but it would cost about $650 to add that.

If you are not already using BLEvo I would strongly recommend that brilliant app, it connects to your Levo and you could for example make a setting that “I want to maintain 160 watts” and the app will keep the bike support in a way that you produce a steady power performance. You could also state I want to keep my HR at 160 and the app will adjust motor support accordingly.

Karsten

 

[miPbiP]

cheating means breaking rules one has agreed to.

since there are no rules to riding for fun, there can't be any cheating.

 

[Mikerb]

My meashres afe very simple.....the size of the smile on my face and the degree of craving for carbs. Blow the stats...I just keep riding until the thought of coffee and cake is more appealing than another descent.

 

[highpeakrider]

It's a measure of effort, not of results.

But no, enjoying the ride is not my goal. I exercise for fitness and weight control, and enjoy it to some degree. Biking I enjoy more than running, but find it harder to burn calories.

But surly if it’s only a measure of effort you can only measure improvement if the exercise performed is constant otherwise what are you comparing to?

 

[Gary]

But surly if it’s only a measure of effort you can only measure improvement if the exercise performed is constant otherwise what are you comparing to?

That's why people who genuinely train seriously do repeatable fitness tests or race.
Live data is mainly there as something to help you train within specific zones/efforts etc.
Recorded data is there to geek over/brag about

I don't honestly believe anyone would seriously train to this level on an emtb

Happy to be proven wrong tho.

 

[highpeakrider]

That's why people who genuinely train seriously do repeatable fitness tests or race.
Live data is mainly there as something to help you train within specific zones/efforts etc.
Recorded data is there to geek over/brag about

I don't honestly believe anyone would seriously train to this level on an emtb

Happy to be proven wrong tho.

Hence the question, I can see this for top road bike rider that can measure performance in a lab, but an ebike is a bit......

 

[iainc]

I thought they all just broke after a few rides and the motors got warrantied...
?

 

[Gary]

Hence the question, I can see this for top road bike rider that can measure performance in a lab, but an ebike is a bit......

You don't need a lab to measure performance gainz fairly accurately
Plenty amature road riders (many not even racers) do.
I agree it'd be a pretty inaccurate measure using an Emtb.
but as I already said I don't believe anyone does seriously train to a high level using an emtb to measure performance.

 

[mtbross]

I ride a Rocky Mountain Altitude PP, Giant Road-E (for road obviously), as well as my whatever you call normal bikes (Giant Trance, Look) and while I couldn't say for certain where it's coming from, the power information is always there on Strava when I care to take a look. Apps/devices are Ebikemotion, Garmin Connect, Strava, Garmin Connect IQ, Giant RideControl. Of course, not all these always running. And sometimes, I just ride with Garmin. So probably from there I suspect.

Oh probably for another thread, but check out Relive app if you haven't already. Cool recap of rides. Not sure if this will work, but here's example from one of my demo rides before I bought the RM: Relive 'Demo Rocky Mountain' If you snap any pictures along your ride it will automatically add them to the video if you want. Think there's a lot more you can do with paid subscription too. Pretty cool.

 

[Gary]

It was quite cool

Strava Shut Down

DC Rainmaker's looong explanation:

Strava cuts off Relive: Here’s what actually happened

short version:

STRAVA is a dick

 

[galaga187]

@rsilvers I used my Levo with Blevo to train for the Mallorca 312 road cycling event. It worked really well much more fun than sitting on a turbo in the garage. I was curious about the power meter so put my Garmin Vector power pedals on the Levo to compare, the Levo power meter read between 10 and 40 watts lower over a 100-300 watt range. So I was pushing harder on the Levo.

 

[Gary]

That sounds a well hard event.
Seems odd you wouldn't train on a roadbike (outdoors) though?

 

[McInner1]

I was curious about the power meter so put my Garmin Vector power pedals on the Levo to compare, the Levo power meter read between 10 and 40 watts lower over a 100-300 watt range. So I was pushing harder on the Levo.

I had the same feeling about power readings:
What kinda wattage we dealing with chaps? - EMTB Forums