The push will always be to reduce weight, the reality is the only downside to a FF (apart from the slightly more chunky looks) is the weight, as Jeremy Clarkson would say, you can never have too much powerrrrrrrrr ?. Joking aside the reduced power of the SL is a by product of getting the weight down. An ideal bike would be FF power with non electric bike weight. For me I am sure I can hussle a FF along enough to make it super fun and then have the whole enhanced feel of power and range etc. As you say I am sure the two types of bike will converge, FF get lighter, SL more power. Just preference but I wanted a different experience which is what it's all about for me. Also it depends on how deep your pockets are you can spend more and get FFs which are heading towards the heavier versions of the SL for example.
PhilBaker
Well-known member
I love the look of the Orbea Rise, definitely a glimpse of the future and of course the other brands will bring out their versions.
Regarding the earlier point about not wanting to lift either one over a gate, that is also a really good point. If you have to lift the bike anywhere at home, or work, or if your trails have Gates you need to lift over, then a lightweight bike should definitely go up the priority list!
So Utopia for me would be the Orbea Rise, but the lightweight bikes are not cheap, which is why I went for a FF. When I compared the price I'd have to pay for a SL vs a FF, then the decision was made! Cheaper, faster and further!
In my opinion, it's probably not as fun a ride as a lightweight bike, but hell, it's a lot of fun!
And if you have decided now on FF, you now have a huge range of options beyond the Levo. As said, a large number of people have had numerous motor changes, but there are more people riding Levo's than most other brands I'm told.
Regarding the earlier point about not wanting to lift either one over a gate, that is also a really good point. If you have to lift the bike anywhere at home, or work, or if your trails have Gates you need to lift over, then a lightweight bike should definitely go up the priority list!
So Utopia for me would be the Orbea Rise, but the lightweight bikes are not cheap, which is why I went for a FF. When I compared the price I'd have to pay for a SL vs a FF, then the decision was made! Cheaper, faster and further!
In my opinion, it's probably not as fun a ride as a lightweight bike, but hell, it's a lot of fun!
And if you have decided now on FF, you now have a huge range of options beyond the Levo. As said, a large number of people have had numerous motor changes, but there are more people riding Levo's than most other brands I'm told.
FWIW, I don't feel the weight of my Levo Comp FF while riding. I sold a 2019 Santa Cruz Bronson the weight about 32lbs./15.5kg and went to the Levo FF in a couple of weeks. So not a long delay in riding time, and I'm quit sure that I'm riding better on the Levo. The Levo is a medium while the Bronson was a large. I'm having no noticeable difference in rock gardens, or trail riding, but my cornering around switchbacks is much improved. A portion of that is slightly shorter wheel base, but it more than that. Perhaps its so much weight being lower in the bike is lowering the center of gravity. That should certainly improve handling.
Lastly for me, beyond wanting the extra power available when I want it, there was also the cost of manufacture. It doesn't sit well with me that using a much smaller motor that is cheaper to manufacture, and a smaller battery which is cheaper to manufacture, has a retail cost much higher than the more capable Levo FF. Its not like the motor is miniaturized, or the battery is super high tech Tesla batteries.
Lastly for me, beyond wanting the extra power available when I want it, there was also the cost of manufacture. It doesn't sit well with me that using a much smaller motor that is cheaper to manufacture, and a smaller battery which is cheaper to manufacture, has a retail cost much higher than the more capable Levo FF. Its not like the motor is miniaturized, or the battery is super high tech Tesla batteries.
- Thread starter
- #64
That's good to know. I suppose the weight is just something you get used to, not necessarily better or worse, just different.
I've seen some people say that the added weight gives a much more planted feel to the ride. My local trails are really rooty in places so I'm hoping it'll help to blast through them.
I know what you mean, it seems odd to be spending more money on a bike with less power... but I guess they have to try and recoup the costs of developing their own motor?
also remember it's not just the motor and battery that make the bikes lighter, they often use (in the case of the Orbea, not sure about the SL), lighter tires etc, you can take 1KG off a FF by going for a different tire, same for pedals, etc, if you want to chop weight on a FF there are plenty of ways to do it. I have recently stopped XC racing after many years and was a total weight weenie on my XC bike, obviously chasing every gram costs loads and has diminishing gains, however there are very low hanging fruit on a FF if you are worried about weight
That’s an odd way to look at it if I may say. Do you know that the Mahle is cheaper to manufacture than the Brose?
Spesh have been churning the Brose out for a long time now and with that longevity comes reduced cost. Partnering with a new company in Mahle, and the R&D and manufacture of a completely new and bespoke drivetrain will have required significant investment - that’s what you’re paying for with the SL.
The Brose system has looked like a public beta at times whereas the Mahle seems like a well thought out design and execution.
My '19 levo was 23kg,,, my SL is 17.3KG (both weighed by me). That is a huge difference.. if I were to strap 10 u.k pints of water to my SL I think there would be a noticeable difference in user handling and bike Manoeuvrability ?
- Thread starter
- #70
It's also tricky to compare the two bikes if you're going off of their base models as I don't think the SL has a model below Comp?
So if you're comparing both Comp models then the FF Levo is actually more money.
- Levo SL Comp (£5250)
- Levo Comp (£6300)
So if you're comparing both Comp models then the FF Levo is actually more money.
- Levo SL Comp (£5250)
- Levo Comp (£6300)
very true, you will def notice that !!! haha,
in the same way a none electric bike will be lighter again. I guess it comes down to how much the extra weight (from none electric to SL then SL to FF) bothers you and if you feel hinders the way you want to ride. At each stage you are adding weight and power, just depends on what you want and if the weight/power offset bothers you. Anyone really bothered about weight would stick to none electric and chase every gram (that was me a while back
)- Thread starter
- #72
Fair point. What model was your FF Levo?
Do you KNOW the Mahle motor cost more? Of do you just want to think that? Just go look at standard electric motors and see for yourself. Less powerful equals cheaper. If you think that the Mahle motor is some super new basic research high tech, then you are sadly mistaken. It is no doubt a modified standard motor that has some items around it to make it suitable for a emtb, like a belt drive system like you see in the Levo FF. To do anything otherwise would greatly increase the costs to bring it to market for little to no gain, and simply foolish. Electric motors have been around for 100+ years, and potential and characteristics are well known. Contrary to what some of you believe, bike companies don't spent ridiculous sums on basic R&D. That's just marketing trying to justify the high price. Many of them buy designs from independent designers. And yes I do know this. Add to that you are talking about new form motor on the SL. Those complaining that the Brose motor is experimental are putting themselves in a potentially worse spot. But if you want to give money to the bike companies for clever marketing that makes you believe, then go ahead. Doesn't matter to me.
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And you ignore that the center of gravity will be lower on the Levo with a rider than the Sl, due to the fact that more weight is down in the frame of the bike. In m y case, as I said, no noticeable difference on the downhill/rock gardens, and much OBVIOUS improvement on the switchbacks. Don't care if you believe it or not. That is the way it is for whatever reason.
Edit: As stated previously, this is coming from a Stan Cruz Bronson. Different bikes so Apples and Oranges. Both bikes 2.6" tires front and back. At the very least there has been no significant penalty with the much heavier Levo in my riding. However the extra power has made the climbing aspect fun as well. The SL without as much power would not have made the climbing nearly as much fun, and would have defeated the reason behind buying an emtb in the first place.
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You have to look at the specs and not the name. Forks Fox 36 vs Fox 34 etc. Which here in the us the base SL is $6500 and the Comp similar configured Levo is $6300. That is if I remember the numbers correctly.
very true, you will def notice that !!! haha,
in the same way a none electric bike will be lighter again. I guess it comes down to how much the extra weight (from none electric to SL then SL to FF) bothers you and if you feel hinders the way you want to ride. At each stage you are adding weight and power, just depends on what you want and if the weight/power offset bothers you. Anyone really bothered about weight would stick to none electric and chase every gram (that was me a while back
the ff was a Alu frame base model with lots of upgrades.... medium size.
the SL is expert with carbon frame, carbon rims and carbon bars And light suspension.... large size.
I love my SL, I liked my ff.
This will help you. I've been going back and forth between the FF LEVO and the SL, remember that I am a very shitty rider with an even shittier fitness level and I'm pretty heavy. My rides would be always less than 30km/800m on an acoustic bike and after that ride I always were too exhausted and scared to ride again for at least a week because of the suffering. So I decided for the FF LEVO... Boy I think I made a mistake. My first ride was an epic 70+km 1300m or something and I did it 90% eco, 5% trail and 5% turbo (give it or take).
I should have bought the SL.
I should have bought the SL.
I don't understand the argument really the FF and Sl are two different bikes for different riders.I tried both but prefer the SL so I bought that, I didn't 'not' enjoy riding the FF it's just not the right bike for 95% of my riding, There is no right or wrong and there is no substitute for trying both to make up your mind. When it comes to bike weight you just can't get a FF down to the same weight as the SL as you can't use standard forks etc . The other issue I don't understand is this preoccupation with having a heavy bike to blast through stuff, I don't see any top downhill racers strapping rolls of lead to their bike's, part of the fun is picking lines, braking points, gapping and unweighting over roots and rocks, and thats where the SS comes out tops.
As you may know, the real issue here is that most people cannot afford both and they offer different experiences. I personally had to really stretch to get to the first SL Carbon tier, and even then, I am asking myself why I didn't go Expert (reason: cost). With that in mind, people are having to choose what they want best, and I think the remainder of your conversation is basically the balance of the decision -- do I want ridiculous power so I can go further or a lighter bike where I don't get "as much power" for my money.
For you, the lighter and "correct" direction for a better bike was clear. For myself and maybe the OP (especially for those who can't even get a test ride with COVID)... it is a real dilemma I have already spent months / year on. I honestly don't know where I would be in, let's say, 3-4 months. Would I be better off being able to go further and just ride more? Or would I actually be better off with "adding lightness" (but still heavier than my acoustic Stumpy Evo) and marginal power assist from the SL?
If I had the funds, I know I would have both, with the Levo SL as light as little assisted as possible (downtube battery out, range extender in) and the Levo "full fat" for off-days when I just want to go new places.
There are pros and cons to each and riding each quite a bit would make these decisions easier. At least here in the Eastern United States where there aren't even any in Local Bike Shops (much less getting work done without leaving your bike for about a month)... the decision is much more a look.. and leap.
Because even though I really like the FF, I'm more of a jumper (or that is what I'm telling myself doing 1 foot bunny hops) and for range.. With the range extender I recon I can do the same route with the SL.Sounds like it was a godo ride. Why do you believe you should have gotten the SL? Just so you didn't ride as far or would have been on the bike less time with more effort?
I am assuming the ride was still good and enjoyable if you did a complete 70km.
The ride was epic, considering I landed face first halfway through the course and my left side is now all bruised and I have blood pooled eye.
coggbike
Active member
I honestly don’t feel the weight of my 2020 Levo Expert at all when I’m riding it. Up, flat, or down. Going up it feels like my old mtb but I feel 30 years younger with super legs. Going down it just feels great, solid and planted. On flats, it’s like I’m gliding along. Ever grinning in every case.
The ONLY time I notice the weight is getting it on and off the bike rack. It’s funny, I’ve had it for a year, and still every time I grunt lifting it off the bike rack, then hop on and ride, I’m so amazed that the weight that made me grunt lifting it off the bike rack is gone the moment I start peddling.
Personally, I almost always ride in turbo. When the SL first came out, shorty after I bought my 2020 Levo, I had buyers remorse thinking I missed out on an awesome, light ebike. But the more I rode my Levo, the more I knew the SL just wouldn’t do it for me. I just love the power of the Levo.
I have a lot of things going on right now, and I just can’t be exhausted after a ride. Turbo on the Levo lets me get a long, hard, fun ride in, and still have energy for the rest of the day. When I ride by myself, from launch to finish I crank my cadence up in turbo and just go, go, go the whole ride, with quite a decent cardio level. An hour and a half of that, and I’ve gotten enough exercise for my needs, and I’m still not exhausted. And I’ve had a lot of fun.
From what you described, especially with the commute through hills being a big part of it, I really think the full Levo would do the trick for you. Still having lots of energy when you get to work and when you get home will really be a benefit.
Good luck deciding!
The ONLY time I notice the weight is getting it on and off the bike rack. It’s funny, I’ve had it for a year, and still every time I grunt lifting it off the bike rack, then hop on and ride, I’m so amazed that the weight that made me grunt lifting it off the bike rack is gone the moment I start peddling.
Personally, I almost always ride in turbo. When the SL first came out, shorty after I bought my 2020 Levo, I had buyers remorse thinking I missed out on an awesome, light ebike. But the more I rode my Levo, the more I knew the SL just wouldn’t do it for me. I just love the power of the Levo.
I have a lot of things going on right now, and I just can’t be exhausted after a ride. Turbo on the Levo lets me get a long, hard, fun ride in, and still have energy for the rest of the day. When I ride by myself, from launch to finish I crank my cadence up in turbo and just go, go, go the whole ride, with quite a decent cardio level. An hour and a half of that, and I’ve gotten enough exercise for my needs, and I’m still not exhausted. And I’ve had a lot of fun.
From what you described, especially with the commute through hills being a big part of it, I really think the full Levo would do the trick for you. Still having lots of energy when you get to work and when you get home will really be a benefit.
Good luck deciding!
Hi there,
new to EMTBs + forum.
I note several people have mentioned the Orbea Rise which I'm considering in comparison to the Levo SL.
I have heard from bike shop that there have been some problems with the EP8 motors - cracking and failing - and that the launch of Orbea Rise consequently significantly delayed.
This article appears to corroborate this: What’s The Holdup With Shimano’s New eMTB Motor?
Has anyone heard anything further?
Are the release dates for the Rise on the Orbea website realistic?
I haven't got an MTB or EMTB at the moment (thanks to burglars) so thinking Levo SL if the wait is too long/unpredictable and then catch the benefit of further developments in a few years with the next bike?
Many thanks
new to EMTBs + forum.
I note several people have mentioned the Orbea Rise which I'm considering in comparison to the Levo SL.
I have heard from bike shop that there have been some problems with the EP8 motors - cracking and failing - and that the launch of Orbea Rise consequently significantly delayed.
This article appears to corroborate this: What’s The Holdup With Shimano’s New eMTB Motor?
Has anyone heard anything further?
Are the release dates for the Rise on the Orbea website realistic?
I haven't got an MTB or EMTB at the moment (thanks to burglars) so thinking Levo SL if the wait is too long/unpredictable and then catch the benefit of further developments in a few years with the next bike?
Many thanks
Try and tested sl VS a new system. Your choice. The SL looks like having a crazy range too compared to the rise.
- Thread starter
- #86
Thanks for the replies all. Definitely decided that I want to go for a ff e bike but have been looking at other options such as the Trek Rail. It looks like you get a bit more bang for your buck with Trek. Still not ruling the Levo out though...
RickBullotta
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
They compute just fine. ;-) The key number in both is the battery capacity, and those are pretty close to each other. The power/assist profile of the Rise is quite different, which demands a bit more rider input but delivers a supposedly more natural pedaling sensation.
Remember the Turbo Levo SL is running a 48V system, not a 36V system. It matters how much energy the motor is consuming. So, if you aren't pulling the same energy from the system with a lower consumption rate, you can make the battery smaller and get the same effective range... with less weight.
120 seconds in here or 2:00
558 seconds in here or 9:18
The electronic controller between the battery and the motor has the final say on how power is consumed and supplied.
acceleration, peak amps, constant amps, all equate to power/torque delivery controlled by the onboard electronics.
The controller is programmed to limit everything. For instance, the length of time peak amps are allowed on acceleration before they reduce and settle, or how quickly ramp up of amps is allowed. All this plays it part in how efficient the system is and how much energy is lost in heat Due to performance.
At 48volts there's more usable voltage range to continue pushing the amps than in a 36v System. As voltage decreases or more amps are demanded, voltage sag occurs. under load the voltage may drop from 2 to 6 volts or more even on a good battery set up.
This means the battery struggles to meet the demand of the motor/controller and the system reaches its cut off voltage under load before naturally getting to it. Voltage sag always occurs but will have less detrimental effect on a higher voltage system In our bikes which don't demand too many amps.
Usable voltage range 36v battery = 42v - 28v (14v)
Usable voltage range on 48v battery = 54v - 36.4v (17.6v)
The voltage cut off limit ( when battery turns itself off) will be naturally later on a 48v system and it's less likely to hit a premature cut-off due to voltage sag.
(edited quite a few times... I hope it make sense).?
acceleration, peak amps, constant amps, all equate to power/torque delivery controlled by the onboard electronics.
The controller is programmed to limit everything. For instance, the length of time peak amps are allowed on acceleration before they reduce and settle, or how quickly ramp up of amps is allowed. All this plays it part in how efficient the system is and how much energy is lost in heat Due to performance.
At 48volts there's more usable voltage range to continue pushing the amps than in a 36v System. As voltage decreases or more amps are demanded, voltage sag occurs. under load the voltage may drop from 2 to 6 volts or more even on a good battery set up.
This means the battery struggles to meet the demand of the motor/controller and the system reaches its cut off voltage under load before naturally getting to it. Voltage sag always occurs but will have less detrimental effect on a higher voltage system In our bikes which don't demand too many amps.
Usable voltage range 36v battery = 42v - 28v (14v)
Usable voltage range on 48v battery = 54v - 36.4v (17.6v)
The voltage cut off limit ( when battery turns itself off) will be naturally later on a 48v system and it's less likely to hit a premature cut-off due to voltage sag.
(edited quite a few times... I hope it make sense).?
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