Levo Gen 2 Levo limiter and power-off: What is the pedal resistance like?

[dowroa]

Note: I have not been able to test ride / demo a Levo as they are just not available in my region (within 100mi) to demo during COVID. At best, you get to ride around in a parking lot. Thus far, I have not even been able to find a Levo to do this

My High Level Problem:

Attempting to decide between an SL and a Levo

Questions:
When the Levo motor is off, what is the resistance like? Is this something you would want to have to ride XC up/down hills to get out of some trails if the electric assist is non-functioning?

When the Levo is above the limiter (20mph in the US), does this feel like a wall that is hard to pedal past?

Bonus:

Comparatively, for the Levo SL, are neither of these real issues?

Thank you for the feedback. My apologies I cannot get on these bikes to actually figure out these answers myself.

 

[Tim1023]

Note: I have not been able to test ride / demo a Levo as they are just not available in my region (within 100mi) to demo during COVID. At best, you get to ride around in a parking lot. Thus far, I have not even been able to find a Levo to do this

My High Level Problem:

Attempting to decide between an SL and a Levo

Questions:
When the Levo motor is off, what is the resistance like? Is this something you would want to have to ride XC up/down hills to get out of some trails if the electric assist is non-functioning?

When the Levo is above the limiter (20mph in the US), does this feel like a wall that is hard to pedal past?

Bonus:

Comparatively, for the Levo SL, are neither of these real issues?

Thank you for the feedback. My apologies I cannot get on these bikes to actually figure out these answers myself.

With all the Brose motors, the unit disengages completely when off and when over the speed limit. I'm told that it shuts off very naturally at the top end (down to Specialized's tuning). Still waiting for my Levo, but that motor behaviour was very important for me.

Not sure who the manufacturer of the SL motors is, but my guess is that Specialized would want the same behaviour.

 

[KeithR]

Not sure who the manufacturer of the SL motors is, but my guess is that Specialized would want the same behaviour.

It's so seamless above the cut-off that I literally only notice from the drop in sound from the motor.

 

[boBE]

With the power off the SL feels like a heavy bike, the motor does not seem to take much (if any) additional power to turn. Approaching the high speed cutoff the SL gently eases off the power so at 20+ mph it is all you, 22 mph takes a lot of effort.

 

[dowroa]

With the power off the SL feels like a heavy bike, the motor does not seem to take much (if any) additional power to turn. Approaching the high speed cutoff the SL gently eases off the power so at 20+ mph it is all you, 22 mph takes a lot of effort.

Is this the case or worse for the FF Levo?

 

[MrSimmo]

Is this the case or worse for the FF Levo?

Worse for the FF Levo imo; mainly due to the heavier bike. Lots of people say its fine; but for me on my Levo 2020, the cut off makes it feel like I've suddenly hit quagmire. SL is much less of a differentiation in feel at cut-off, but the offset is much less support (i.e. extra power from the motor) due to the lighter and smaller motor.

Its a dirty word, but the problem (at least for me) is bad enough to warrant me having it de-restricted when the warranty is up. But as Specialized just extended it to 4 years, it wont be anytime soon ? The same applies to any e-bike though not just the Levo.

 

[dowroa]

Thank you, all! I think that answers the logical questions as much as possible without getting on the Levo.

Much appreciated!

 

[salko]

On flat terrain I don't feel when motor cuts off on full power Levo.

 

[cleoent]

Strange responses in this thread. On my levo, I can VERY MUCH tell when i'm above the 20 mph cut off. It's like trying to peddle through mud or something trying to accelerate above 20 mph.

At slower speeds, I don't find the resistance to be too horrible, it's like a super heavy bike. I could peddle out, and am prepared to, when/if motor blows up.

 

[RebornRider]

Strange responses in this thread. On my levo, I can VERY MUCH tell when i'm above the 20 mph cut off. It's like trying to peddle through mud or something trying to accelerate above 20 mph.

Agreed, but OTOH I think it feels the same as pedaling a heavy analog mtb at 21 mph. I don't know the right numbers, but let's say it takes 300 Watts to go 21 mph on a mtb. With motor assistance, you might be contributing 150 W and the motor provides the other 150 W. If your derestrictor suddenly fails and you have no motor assistance, now YOU have to provide 300 W to maintain 21 mph. Compared to 150 W, that will feel like pedaling through mud.

Similarly, at 19 mph with assistance, you may be providing 130 W. But when you climb to 21 mph, the motor limit means you have to provide 300 W (or whatever it is). My understanding is that Specialized tapers off the assistance close to the limit so that the motor's power contribution ramps down rather than being abrupt cut off. That said, I certainly feel the limit on flat ground.

 

[Tim1023]

Worse for the FF Levo imo; mainly due to the heavier bike. Lots of people say its fine; but for me on my Levo 2020, the cut off makes it feel like I've suddenly hit quagmire. SL is much less of a differentiation in feel at cut-off, but the offset is much less support (i.e. extra power from the motor) due to the lighter and smaller motor.

Its a dirty word, but the problem (at least for me) is bad enough to warrant me having it de-restricted when the warranty is up. But as Specialized just extended it to 4 years, it wont be anytime soon ? The same applies to any e-bike though not just the Levo.

I was in the UK recently and was told by a dealer there that 90% of the bikes they sell get derestricted. You naughty kiddies you! For me it's not so much the warranty, but the stricter laws in Germany. If your bike gives you support over 25kmh, you need a driver's license, different insurance, a plate, etc, etc. And in Germany, you can bet they're pretty strict about it! You get stopped for riding your bike on a bike path on the wrong side of the road. Even when it's completely empty.

 

[fraatti]

Agreed, but OTOH I think it feels the same as pedaling a heavy analog mtb at 21 mph. I don't know the right numbers, but let's say it takes 300 Watts to go 21 mph on a mtb. With motor assistance, you might be contributing 150 W and the motor provides the other 150 W. If your derestrictor suddenly fails and you have no motor assistance, now YOU have to provide 300 W to maintain 21 mph. Compared to 150 W, that will feel like pedaling through mud.

Similarly, at 19 mph with assistance, you may be providing 130 W. But when you climb to 21 mph, the motor limit means you have to provide 300 W (or whatever it is). My understanding is that Specialized tapers off the assistance close to the limit so that the motor's power contribution ramps down rather than being abrupt cut off. That said, I certainly feel the limit on flat ground.

I tried to ride without assistance few kilometers just so see how much power is needed to ride Levo. Average speed was 22,6 km/h and average biker power around 225W. In Europe assistance stops around 25km/h so if you want to ride faster than this your pedaling power must be higher than 250 W. This is quite tough at least for me, as you can see heart rate was max 183bpm. Average more than 160bpm

 

[KeithR]

I was in the UK recently and was told by a dealer there that 90% of the bikes they sell get derestricted.

Dealer was talking utter rubbish. How would he know?

If your bike gives you support over 25kmh, you need a driver's license, different insurance, a plate, etc, etc.

Just like the UK.

 

[paquo]

Bonus:
Comparatively, for the Levo SL, are neither of these real issues?
Thank you for the feedback.

I mostly ride the sl and one or two days a week the ff levo. The sl does ride better above the limiter but it's still not a fast bike at that speed, my regular bike is easier to ride above 20 mph. In general the ff is smoother ,quieter, quicker ,cimbs steeps better and i always end up with it having better range. The sl is more fun and involving.

 

[jsharpe]

Strange responses in this thread. On my levo, I can VERY MUCH tell when i'm above the 20 mph cut off. It's like trying to peddle through mud or something trying to accelerate above 20 mph.

At slower speeds, I don't find the resistance to be too horrible, it's like a super heavy bike. I could peddle out, and am prepared to, when/if motor blows up.

I agree here. If you want to be able to pedal with no assistance you really should be looking at the SL. Sure it has less power, but it's not any hit to pedal with no assist other than the weight of the bike. I personally wouldn't consider riding my regular Levo (a 2020 Comp) that way. Sure you could gut through it in an emergency but it wouldn't be fun. And when exceeding the limit imagine putting on the brakes or riding into a stiff headwind. If you're coasting down a fairly steep hill, probably no big deal. But doing that on the flats is nasty enough to simply slow down to where the assist kicks back in. Bottom line, if you want to be able to pedal without any assist I would strongly recommend against buying a regular Levo without trying it first.

 

[dowroa]

I mostly ride the sl and one or two days a week the ff levo. The sl does ride better above the limiter but it's still not a fast bike at that speed, my regular bike is easier to ride above 20 mph. In general the ff is smoother ,quieter, quicker ,cimbs steeps better and i always end up with it having better range. The sl is more fun and involving.

Thanks. What I really wanted to know is, at low speed or having to ride out of a ride due to malfunction / no battery, is the Levo impossible to ride and the Levo SL is at least somewhat possible? I do peak about 22 mph on my rides, but that is really on the brief downhill sections. I am mostly between 4-7 mph grinding out miles on 1-2 hour solo rides in the middle of nowhere trails (official trails).

I am personally re-starting my MTBing after a 7 year hiatus with kids and injuries. I am on the 2013 Stumpjumper FSR Evo, and I am pushing myself way beyond what I can really do right now. Everything here is XC with a lot of rooty trails, punchy climbs and almost no flow / downhill. Either bike would work well. I also break things. A lot. So, if I am on the backside of a 16 mile ride in the middle of nowhere with no real way to get back other than riding out... the question is relevant to me.

To me, mentally, the Levo SL is much more interesting along with the ability to add range extenders. From what I have seen, it basically gets 540w Levo mileage on the base battery and 700w range with both. However, for where I have problems (really steep, punchy hills within the rides) I think the Levo FF may be a better choice... as there is no flow in any of the trails around here.

Levo SL == What my heart likes but very similar to my 2013 Stumpy Evo FSR for usage
Levo FF == What I more than likely need with better componentry, range, assist that I need as a rider right now.

*sigh*

Thank you all! It has been massively helpful!

 

[Tim1023]

Thanks. What I really wanted to know is, at low speed or having to ride out of a ride due to malfunction / no battery, is the Levo impossible to ride and the Levo SL is at least somewhat possible? I do peak about 22 mph on my rides, but that is really on the brief downhill sections. I am mostly between 4-7 mph grinding out miles on 1-2 hour solo rides in the middle of nowhere trails (official trails).

I am personally re-starting my MTBing after a 7 year hiatus with kids and injuries. I am on the 2013 Stumpjumper FSR Evo, and I am pushing myself way beyond what I can really do right now. Everything here is XC with a lot of rooty trails, punchy climbs and almost no flow / downhill. Either bike would work well. I also break things. A lot. So, if I am on the backside of a 16 mile ride in the middle of nowhere with no real way to get back other than riding out... the question is relevant to me.

To me, mentally, the Levo SL is much more interesting along with the ability to add range extenders. From what I have seen, it basically gets 540w Levo mileage on the base battery and 700w range with both. However, for where I have problems (really steep, punchy hills within the rides) I think the Levo FF may be a better choice... as there is no flow in any of the trails around here.

Levo SL == What my heart likes but very similar to my 2013 Stumpy Evo FSR for usage
Levo FF == What I more than likely need with better componentry, range, assist that I need as a rider right now.

*sigh*

Thank you all! It has been massively helpful!

...and now you just need to find a shop that has one in stock!

 

[Woody1975]

Dealer was talking utter rubbish. How would he know?

Maybe because he sold the bikes?

Just like the UK.

 

[markfitton]

Well different opinions here. I have a 2020 comp Levo., I often ride it without power , for the entire ride if I’m local, up to 20 km but without any steep hills. If I’m at a trail centre I usually do at least some of it without power and mostly just in eco.

Obviously, you feel the loss of power when you hit the limiter, either slow down a little or grin and bear it.
Personally when MTBing I never notice the loss of power at the limiter as I’m not going fast enough unless it’s downhill, when you don’t need it anyway.

Riding without power doesn’t seem to take any watts away , though I am sure there is some resistance.... anybody ? Whatever I can’t feel it.

For me I decided to get the Levo , as if I need the power it’s there. Though I often wonder if I should have got the SL , as I rarely use full power mode.

whichever one you get , it will put a smile on your face , they are brilliant bikes.

 

[Tedgar]

I ride my 2019 Levo all the time with battery off and sometimes no battery. Going from power on to power off feels like you have 2 flats and and the BB is dragging the ground, but it is because you are in too high of a gear. It rides as good as my stumpjumper with no power. Strava has proved it on all my fav trails. Times and speeds are about the same. My buddies cry like girls if I use battery so I leave the battery in the truck and still beat them.

 

[Soupamoto]

Here’s my perspective on your questions, I’ve got an ‘18 Levo Comp Fattie. My situation may vary from yours, but may help others looking for a Levo.

When my ‘18 is not de restricted, above 19.7 mph on my Garmin it feels like I’ve thrown an anchor onto a freight train. But that’s not really your question.

With mine turned off I can peddle and probably could get out of the woods. With it on and no battery left it’s too hard to peddle far.

Derestricted with BLevo I’ve seen 37 mph on the Garmin on gravel (assisted of course). Didn’t dare look down after that.

I had an opportunity to trade my ‘18 Levo towards an SL. Before I did I went on a test ride on my buddy’s SL; I’m glad I did! I weigh 230 lb, and the SL would not pull me up steep hills well at all. On normal hills I could not get away from my buddy on his hardtail normal MTB.

In short, for me and my size the SL would only replace a normal bike when riding with friends on them. It would not could not act as my eMTB meaning allowing me to ride massive hills, long rides, and ride at faster speeds like the Levo does.

I passed on the SL and kept my Levo, even though the deal I was offered was remarkable. The SL would have left me unsatisfied.

My ‘18 motor is different than 2021 motors so my drag experience would be different I suppose, but I’m sure plenty of folks reading this will be considering used pre ‘19 bikes.

 

[ecotrials]

I started riding my 1989 Rockhopper Comp again, regularly, a couple of years ago. I'm 1/2 mile away from a regional park with tons of fireroads, quite a bit of single track, and hills, hills, and in case I didn't mention it enough, massive hills. I love it!
One of the mods I did to the bike 30 years ago was add a quad ring (a 16 tooth FRONT sprocket) giving me half a chance at some of those hills. I can climb them at a 1 to 2 mph pace. Two years ago, it was often less than 1 mph, so I had to add a second spoke magnet and halve the wheel circumference on my bike computer because at less than 1 mph it assumed I had stopped moving.

While on vacation and hiking in the Sierras, I witnessed two women riding up a grade at considerable speed (far faster than I could have) and just chatting amiably. I was shocked. I did a quick google and discovered e-assist bicycling. I looked for local bike shops and went to check them out. The 2019 Levos were on the shop floor. They were GIGANTIC. I was shocked! I looked at the price stickers. Wham! Lightning strike? Getting tired of all these shocks. The S-Works was more expensive than any motorcycle I had ever purchased, and even some cars. That tempered my enthusiasm, at least for a year.
But I continued to read about emtbs. Joined a forum or two, slowly got educated.
Last summer I thought I might be ready to buy. I was heavily leaning towards another Specialized bike, so the Levo was in my sights. Reading about the BLEvo app made it just that much more enticing. The control available is quite stunning. I had exactly zero interest in derestricting. So I finally rode a demo Levo, a medium since a large was not available. My biggest concern was would it enable me to ride all those hills that I just could not peddle up. Just for reference, I had just reached the age of 70. That very first ride on a 90+ degree F, I utilized the GoPro and in watching it back was surprised by the number of 'oh my god' comments immediately followed by laughter. While not exactly breezing up the steepest hills on some of my more regular routes, I didn't have to get off and push. Woohoo!. The following day I did two more rides, testing routes never attempted by me before. Stunningly able to climb some 25 degree sections. The last ride was 24.5 miles, 5000 feet of climbing, about 4 hours, using 37% of the 700wh available. I ride with assistance off anytime the climb is less than I guess 5 degrees. I downshift to first and go as long as I can and then use eco, trail and infrequently turbo. I reduce the assist as soon as I am able, switching to off if I can. I am happy to report I did not have to dismount on any slope. I was exhausted when I finished, but a VERY HAPPY exhausted. I had explored some new to me sections of the park. This was another goal I had, to open up more exploration possibilities. Looking at a trail/road dropping down a substantial distance made me hesitant to try it, wondering if I might have to push the bike back up. Fears overcome.
After reading a whole series on Brose motor failures, I concluded that many of the issues seemed like the riders in many cases seemed to be abusing the design. Some derestricted, some hammering around in turbo, one person did a study and thought there were less issues with the aluminum frames than carbon, so perhaps the aluminum helped dissipate the heat in both the motor and the battery. I had been thinking Expert, but opted for the Comp, saving around $1000.
So I ordered a 2021 Comp, large, in Spruce. Paid the entire amount, less the $100 already paid for the demo with delivery expected within a month.
That month came and went, as did the next. My LBS offered me an SL to demo for free for two days. I figured, why not? My riding style of using minimal power MIGHT be a good fit, but I was concerned that half the battery and half the power might be insufficient for the hills that I ride. I have also noticed that no matter how much I ride, the next year I don't SEEM to have the same strength, but since much of my riding success depends on how many times I have to stop, or dismount, coupled with riding time, it is hard to pinpoint. With the BLEvo app I will have all sorts of statistics to track and see.
The first ride on the SL I could not climb the hill that I have never climbed without assistance. I got higher, but ran out of leg power and had to dismount and WALK the bike up. Walk mode was nice to have. In this first short ride I was also unable to climb a section in turbo that I was able to climb on the 2020 Levo. Hmm.
I did two more rides. The 2nd ride I had mounted my phone on the handlebars and was delighted with all the feedback data, until about 2 hours in my phone completely died because I had the screen on full time. I estimated that was a 20+ mile effort and I explored 11 new sections of fire road. The final ride was 19.3 miles with 4600 feet of climbing. I had to dismount four times.
So I returned the bike and let them know that for, the better long term solution was the bike I had ordered.
Just a couple of observations. Going from eco to off always felt a bit sluggish (quite understandable), but as soon as I picked up the cadence it felt immediately better. My riding style in the hills really does not expose me to the dreaded 'cutoff' at around 20 mph, so I cannot say how that feels on the SL.
A week later my Levo arrived. I immediately ordered the invisiframe kit, and don't want to ride it, especially in the dirt, until that is installed. However, I did do a brake bed-in according to LBS instruction: 20 hard braking applications from 12 mph, and 10 hard braking applications from 20 mph. I utilized turbo for those and when going slightly uphill, the dropoff in power was VERY noticable, less so on a decline, the steeper the decline, the less the effect is noticeable.

So, completely happy so far, can only imagine what my ride will be like a week from today on the Levo. I might be regretting this next week's 2 or 3 rides on the old Rockhopper, hah!

 

[Tim1023]

I started riding my 1989 Rockhopper Comp again, regularly, a couple of years ago. I'm 1/2 mile away from a regional park with tons of fireroads, quite a bit of single track, and hills, hills, and in case I didn't mention it enough, massive hills. I love it!
One of the mods I did to the bike 30 years ago was add a quad ring (a 16 tooth FRONT sprocket) giving me half a chance at some of those hills. I can climb them at a 1 to 2 mph pace. Two years ago, it was often less than 1 mph, so I had to add a second spoke magnet and halve the wheel circumference on my bike computer because at less than 1 mph it assumed I had stopped moving.

While on vacation and hiking in the Sierras, I witnessed two women riding up a grade at considerable speed (far faster than I could have) and just chatting amiably. I was shocked. I did a quick google and discovered e-assist bicycling. I looked for local bike shops and went to check them out. The 2019 Levos were on the shop floor. They were GIGANTIC. I was shocked! I looked at the price stickers. Wham! Lightning strike? Getting tired of all these shocks. The S-Works was more expensive than any motorcycle I had ever purchased, and even some cars. That tempered my enthusiasm, at least for a year.
But I continued to read about emtbs. Joined a forum or two, slowly got educated.
Last summer I thought I might be ready to buy. I was heavily leaning towards another Specialized bike, so the Levo was in my sights. Reading about the BLEvo app made it just that much more enticing. The control available is quite stunning. I had exactly zero interest in derestricting. So I finally rode a demo Levo, a medium since a large was not available. My biggest concern was would it enable me to ride all those hills that I just could not peddle up. Just for reference, I had just reached the age of 70. That very first ride on a 90+ degree F, I utilized the GoPro and in watching it back was surprised by the number of 'oh my god' comments immediately followed by laughter. While not exactly breezing up the steepest hills on some of my more regular routes, I didn't have to get off and push. Woohoo!. The following day I did two more rides, testing routes never attempted by me before. Stunningly able to climb some 25 degree sections. The last ride was 24.5 miles, 5000 feet of climbing, about 4 hours, using 37% of the 700wh available. I ride with assistance off anytime the climb is less than I guess 5 degrees. I downshift to first and go as long as I can and then use eco, trail and infrequently turbo. I reduce the assist as soon as I am able, switching to off if I can. I am happy to report I did not have to dismount on any slope. I was exhausted when I finished, but a VERY HAPPY exhausted. I had explored some new to me sections of the park. This was another goal I had, to open up more exploration possibilities. Looking at a trail/road dropping down a substantial distance made me hesitant to try it, wondering if I might have to push the bike back up. Fears overcome.
After reading a whole series on Brose motor failures, I concluded that many of the issues seemed like the riders in many cases seemed to be abusing the design. Some derestricted, some hammering around in turbo, one person did a study and thought there were less issues with the aluminum frames than carbon, so perhaps the aluminum helped dissipate the heat in both the motor and the battery. I had been thinking Expert, but opted for the Comp, saving around $1000.
So I ordered a 2021 Comp, large, in Spruce. Paid the entire amount, less the $100 already paid for the demo with delivery expected within a month.
That month came and went, as did the next. My LBS offered me an SL to demo for free for two days. I figured, why not? My riding style of using minimal power MIGHT be a good fit, but I was concerned that half the battery and half the power might be insufficient for the hills that I ride. I have also noticed that no matter how much I ride, the next year I don't SEEM to have the same strength, but since much of my riding success depends on how many times I have to stop, or dismount, coupled with riding time, it is hard to pinpoint. With the BLEvo app I will have all sorts of statistics to track and see.
The first ride on the SL I could not climb the hill that I have never climbed without assistance. I got higher, but ran out of leg power and had to dismount and WALK the bike up. Walk mode was nice to have. In this first short ride I was also unable to climb a section in turbo that I was able to climb on the 2020 Levo. Hmm.
I did two more rides. The 2nd ride I had mounted my phone on the handlebars and was delighted with all the feedback data, until about 2 hours in my phone completely died because I had the screen on full time. I estimated that was a 20+ mile effort and I explored 11 new sections of fire road. The final ride was 19.3 miles with 4600 feet of climbing. I had to dismount four times.
So I returned the bike and let them know that for, the better long term solution was the bike I had ordered.
Just a couple of observations. Going from eco to off always felt a bit sluggish (quite understandable), but as soon as I picked up the cadence it felt immediately better. My riding style in the hills really does not expose me to the dreaded 'cutoff' at around 20 mph, so I cannot say how that feels on the SL.
A week later my Levo arrived. I immediately ordered the invisiframe kit, and don't want to ride it, especially in the dirt, until that is installed. However, I did do a brake bed-in according to LBS instruction: 20 hard braking applications from 12 mph, and 10 hard braking applications from 20 mph. I utilized turbo for those and when going slightly uphill, the dropoff in power was VERY noticable, less so on a decline, the steeper the decline, the less the effect is noticeable.

So, completely happy so far, can only imagine what my ride will be like a week from today on the Levo. I might be regretting this next week's 2 or 3 rides on the old Rockhopper, hah!

Excellent - thank you for the detailed report!
But do you like the colour? I'm still waiting on mine.

 

[ecotrials]

Excellent - thank you for the detailed report!
But do you like the colour? I'm still waiting on mine.

Well, I originally wanted black, so it would not be so noticeably 2021, when that wasn't available I hoped white would be (to help with heat dissipation), and when the actual colors were available the Spruce was best for me. A plus with the light color (it looks fantastic to me) is any mistakes I make installing the invisiframe will be less noticeable (not that I won't try to do a good job). That should arrive Wednesday, so will still be riding the Rockhopper until next weekend.
I have already installed the new pedals, removed the tubes both front & rear and installed the quadlock on the handlebars. Plus I did the brake bed-in. So doing as much as I can.
The bike is truly gigantic next to my old Rockhopper, but I love it. Now just waiting to consummate that love next weekend