Levo Battery Charging

[NULevo]

Evening guys/girls,

So I'm three shortish rides (and one puncture) into Levo ownership and its brilliant.

I would appreciate some advice on charging the battery as I've been given conflicting information by tow different shops and cant find any details in the manual or searching the forum.

When I spoke to a tech at a Specialized concept store, he advised charging the new battery for 12 hours and then riding the bike, without charging the battery, until it is completely drained and stops working. Then charge it fully again and then top it up as necessary.

Today I spoke to another Specialized store who said I should't discharge the battery fully and just to top it up as required.

So now I'm confused; I don't know which one is giving the right advice.

What is best course of action? Also, what is the best way to maintain the battery after the first charge? at what discharge should it be charged, and should it be charged to 100% every time?

Any advice would be appreciated, thanks in advance

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

I cant imagine going out and not draining the battery completely!
FWIW ive ridden mine seven or eight times and drained it completely most rides then charged it in around four hours.. today I rode and still had 4 bars so I charged it when I got home because im planning on riding it tomorrow.
the only advice I had was to leave it between 60 and 80% charged if youre not planning on using it for a while so I think if I wasnt planning to ride soon, I would wait to charge it until the day before. we probably worry about it too much really..

 

[salko]

When I spoke to a tech at a Specialized concept store, he advised charging the new battery for 12 hours and then riding the bike, without charging the battery, until it is completely drained and stops working. Then charge it fully again and then top it up as necessary.

This tells everything. If I were you I would start to look for another dealer for servicing that bike ...

 

[NULevo]

I cant imagine going out and not draining the battery completely!
FWIW ive ridden mine seven or eight times and drained it completely most rides then charged it in around four hours.. today I rode and still had 4 bars so I charged it when I got home because im planning on riding it tomorrow.
the only advice I had was to leave it between 60 and 80% charged if youre not planning on using it for a while so I think if I wasnt planning to ride soon, I would wait to charge it until the day before. we probably worry about it too much really..

Thanks for the quick reply dobby, so I should drain it completely, and then charge it fully when it gets low or completely. The battery is kept in the house and I can put it on a timer if I leave it, although I'm using it most days at the moment.

This tells everything. If I were you I would start to look for another dealer for servicing that bike ...

Thanks salko, their advice is not that different to dobby's, which part is wrong?

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Thanks for the quick reply dobby, so I should drain it completely, and then charge it fully when it gets low or completely. The battery is kept in the house and I can put it on a timer if I leave it, although I'm using it most days at the moment.



Thanks salko, their advice is not that different to dobby's, which part is wrong?

Im not really the one to give advice as im not long owning the Levo myself but I dont really worry too much as I ride it a lot and so I charge it fully every time I finish..
I have loads and loads of Li-ion tool batteries I use for work, I keep them all jumbled up, in all different states of charge, swap them around different tools with higher and lower demands, overheated them due to extreme use, and I tend to drop them a lot, use them in all weathers and I have had most of these batteries for years without trouble..
as long as stuff is getting used its pretty good, the only time ive ever had trouble with batteries like this is when not using for a long period..

 

[NULevo]

Im not really the one to give advice as im not long owning the Levo myself but I dont really worry too much as I ride it a lot and so I charge it fully every time I finish..
I have loads and loads of Li-ion tool batteries I use for work, I keep them all jumbled up, in all different states of charge, swap them around different tools with higher and lower demands, overheated them due to extreme use, and I tend to drop them a lot, use them in all weathers and I have had most of these batteries for years without trouble..
as long as stuff is getting used its pretty good, the only time ive ever had trouble with batteries like this is when not using for a long period..

Thanks dobby, I've read they are Li-ion, same as phone batteries, and can be charged in the same way. It's the first charge/discharge that confused me, with the advice being it has to be done to 'set' the battery - whatever that means.

 

[salko]

Thanks for the quick reply dobby, so I should drain it completely, and then charge it fully when it gets low or completely. The battery is kept in the house and I can put it on a timer if I leave it, although I'm using it most days at the moment.



Thanks salko, their advice is not that different to dobby's, which part is wrong?

First of the 700Wh battery takes about 5 hours to charge from flat to 100% with 4A charger (I assume you have that one), after 100% the charger goes to stand by mode and won't do much to the battery anymore, so why would you wait another 7 hours if you can already go for a ride?
Second: for this batteries best thing you can do to get maximum cycles count is to keep their state from 20-80% in long term for daily rides. You charge it to 100% only if you're planning longer ride within a day or so. If longer ride is not happening for long time the you drain it to 5-10% and then charge it to 100% to give a cells some balancing, and then go for a ride within a day or so. If storing the battery for longer periods of time, charge it to 60-70% and check battery state every month, if much lower top it up a little bit, never let it drain too deep because it may never wake up again ...
Of course you would not so quickly damage the battery if you discharge it to 0-5% or leave it few days at 100% every now and then, but I defenetely wouldn't do it on a regular basis. Enjoy your ride!

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

I checked my battery on first charge with mission control, it said it was at 100%, the charger was green so that was that.. dealer never mentioned any 'setting' or first charge criteria.. old tech batteries used to have that IIRC but these things are all controlled and monitored by proprietry circuit boards / software.. they also reckon 1000ish charges and im getting 20-25 miles per charge, thats 20-25k miles per battery.. im not gonna worry about it

 

[davarello]

My approach is to fully charge the battery the day I'm riding (or the night before) and avoid going below the last 20% too often. Most of my rides would use 60-70% capacity (of a 500), so it works well for me and I haven't noticed any drop off in range in just over 3000km. Still keen to get a 700wh for the big days though! If I'm not riding for weeks, I'll leave it at around 60%.

 

[NULevo]

First of the 700Wh battery takes about 5 hours to charge from flat to 100% with 4A charger (I assume you have that one), after 100% the charger goes to stand by mode and won't do much to the battery anymore, so why would you wait another 7 hours if you can already go for a ride?
Second: for this batteries best thing you can do to get maximum cycles count is to keep their state from 20-80% in long term for daily rides. You charge it to 100% only if you're planning longer ride within a day or so. If longer ride is not happening for long time the you drain it to 5-10% and then charge it to 100% to give a cells some balancing, and then go for a ride within a day or so. If storing the battery for longer periods of time, charge it to 60-70% and check battery state every month, if much lower top it up a little bit, never let it drain too deep because it may never wake up again ...
Of course you would not so quickly damage the battery if you discharge it to 0-5% or leave it few days at 100% every now and then, but I defenetely wouldn't do it on a regular basis. Enjoy your ride!

Thanks for clarifying salco, everything you say makes sense. For the time being I won't be doing long rides so charge when down to around 20% up to 70-80% would be good practice? Also, should I not discharge it completely after the first charge?

My approach is to fully charge the battery the day I'm riding (or the night before) and avoid going below the last 20% too often. Most of my rides would use 60-70% capacity (of a 500), so it works well for me and I haven't noticed any drop off in range in just over 3000km. Still keen to get a 700wh for the big days though! If I'm not riding for weeks, I'll leave it at around 60%.

Thanks davarello, mine too is a 500wh battery and Ive only done approx. 30km and my battery shows 100% health. It does look like there is a consensus of charging when around 20% and if it should not be a big issue if the juice does run out occasionally.

It looks like, just as with thinks like phones, there is no specific method that needs to be used when charging.

Just one thing to clarify, should I let the first charge discharge completely, or if not, at what sort of %age should I charge it?

I've also contacted Specialized and am waiting for their reply and will let you know their response when I get it.

Sorry if I appear a little confused, and thanks for your replies

 

[davarello]

Thanks for clarifying salco, everything you say makes sense. For the time being I won't be doing long rides so charge when down to around 20% up to 70-80% would be good practice? Also, should I not discharge it completely after the first charge?



Thanks davarello, mine too is a 500wh battery and Ive only done approx. 30km and my battery shows 100% health. It does look like there is a consensus of charging when around 20% and if it should not be a big issue if the juice does run out occasionally.

It looks like, just as with thinks like phones, there is no specific method that needs to be used when charging.

Just one thing to clarify, should I let the first charge discharge completely, or if not, at what sort of %age should I charge it?

I've also contacted Specialized and am waiting for their reply and will let you know their response when I get it.

Sorry if I appear a little confused, and thanks for your replies

Just charge it up to full and get out and ride, if it comes back with 30, 20 or only 5% left I don't think it matters in the long run, and if you completely run out, hope it's mostly a downhill ride home

 

[NULevo]

Just charge it up to full and get out and ride, if it comes back with 30, 20 or only 5% left I don't think it matters in the long run, and if you completely run out, hope it's mostly a downhill ride home

Thanks Davarello, good advise!

I've had a reply from Speciallized which has also eased my concerns a little, and I assume a charge cycle is 0 - 100% charge, so If I keep it at 20 - 80% for normal use and charge to 100% if I'm doing a long ride everything should be fine.

Thanks for all your help guys

Here's the response from Specialized:

Hi,

Thank you for your email, it's always great to hear from riders.

Your Turbo Levo's battery has a sophisticated battery management system built in. The BMS will monitor the discharge and condition of the cells to keep everything working at peak performance for you.
There is no need to fully discharge the battery before charging. Simply charge the bike as needed.

The only thing you might wish to bear in mind is that the batteries cells are Li-ion type which are affected by extreme cold weather. At this time of year, try to make sure your battery is at room temperature before use.

Hope this helps and happy cycling,

 

[salko]

Yes, 1 charge cycle is counted when battery get's full 500/700Wh charge, or to be precise I actually found out that this count is calculated according to battery consumption, so when you consume whole 500/700Wh 1 cycle count is recorded ...

 

[NULevo]

Yes, 1 charge cycle is counted when battery get's full 500/700Wh charge, or to be precise I actually found out that this count is calculated according to battery consumption, so when you consume whole 500/700Wh 1 cycle count is recorded ...

Interesting, I suppose thats why you see Wh on My Rides history, so Ive done 19 miles and used 229Wh.

Very useful info salco, It gives us some idea as to the range from the battery, Thanks

 

[Mikerb]

In terms of battery charging there are 2 considerations...convenience, and maximising its life. In terms of the latter these types of battery achieve their longest lifespan if mostly used in the 30% to 80% charge range. The cells experience most damage when discharged below 10%. and when charged to maximum capacity. All of the brands provide slightly differing advice but the most scientific tests that have been undertaken on these type of batteries offers the following guidelines if you want to maximise the battery life.
1. Do not leave the battery in a discharged state.
2. Long term storage is best done with battery charge to 30% ( maintained at that)
3. Avoid charging the battery to 100% unless you need the full range.
4. Charge to 100% occasionally ( if normally charged to 80%) in order to balance the cells
5. Allow the battery to sit for c 8 hours before use if charged to 100%
6. charge the battery at room temperature.

Obviously the above guidelines may not be convenient...specifically if your normal ride uses a full battery for example. The brands are mostly concerned with range rather than battery longevity, hence their advice to charge fully.

 

[NULevo]

In terms of battery charging there are 2 considerations...convenience, and maximising its life. In terms of the latter these types of battery achieve their longest lifespan if mostly used in the 30% to 80% charge range. The cells experience most damage when discharged below 10%. and when charged to maximum capacity. All of the brands provide slightly differing advice but the most scientific tests that have been undertaken on these type of batteries offers the following guidelines if you want to maximise the battery life.
1. Do not leave the battery in a discharged state.
2. Long term storage is best done with battery charge to 30% ( maintained at that)
3. Avoid charging the battery to 100% unless you need the full range.
4. Charge to 100% occasionally ( if normally charged to 80%) in order to balance the cells
5. Allow the battery to sit for c 8 hours before use if charged to 100%
6. charge the battery at room temperature.

Obviously the above guidelines may not be convenient...specifically if your normal ride uses a full battery for example. The brands are mostly concerned with range rather than battery longevity, hence their advice to charge fully.

Thanks Mikerb, I really appreciate your in depth reply. As a newb I've found the whole battery maintenance issue a minefield.

Thanks for all the responses, things have fallen into place and i've got some idea as to how to move forward.

 

[MauryJ]

In terms of battery charging there are 2 considerations...convenience, and maximising its life. In terms of the latter these types of battery achieve their longest lifespan if mostly used in the 30% to 80% charge range. The cells experience most damage when discharged below 10%. and when charged to maximum capacity. All of the brands provide slightly differing advice but the most scientific tests that have been undertaken on these type of batteries offers the following guidelines if you want to maximise the battery life.
1. Do not leave the battery in a discharged state.
2. Long term storage is best done with battery charge to 30% ( maintained at that)
3. Avoid charging the battery to 100% unless you need the full range.
4. Charge to 100% occasionally ( if normally charged to 80%) in order to balance the cells
5. Allow the battery to sit for c 8 hours before use if charged to 100%
6. charge the battery at room temperature.

Obviously the above guidelines may not be convenient...specifically if your normal ride uses a full battery for example. The brands are mostly concerned with range rather than battery longevity, hence their advice to charge fully.

That leads to my question. How do you charge to just 80%?
Is there a setting or do you watch it? I expect to charge overnight. Won’t be watching it.

 

[salko]

I set up timer on my watch or smartphone and I disconnect the charger when time is up, you may also use programmable power socket to disconnect automatically ... Charging speed in the range 0-80% is 22%/hour (in range 80-100% is about 2x slower) and I calculate hours and minutes how long do I need to charge it to get it to desired % and this works for me perfectly ...

 

[Mikerb]

I never leave the charger connected unattended! I charge during the evening for a ride the next day and usually disconnect the charger once I have 3 solid green lights and the 4th green light flashing. The only real way to know just how much charge has been applied is to use the Mission Control app but that only takes a minute and if need be I can switch the charger back on for 15 minutes or so. I only charge fully if my planned ride is going to be over 20 miles......but if I have not fully charged for a few weeks then I put a full charge in regardless how long my planned ride the following day. The number of charge cycles counted are complete charges......so 2 separate charges each of 50% charge would be counted as 1 full cycle.

 

[salko]

The only real way to know just how much charge has been applied is to use the Mission Control app but that only takes a minute and if need be I can switch the charger back on for 15 minutes or so.

With my method for calculating the time needed for specific % I can "predict" the charge within 1% accurracy, so no need to disturbe charging process and check it in MC ...

 

[salko]

To show you my simple calculation example for my 700Wh battery and 4A charger:
If you ride home with 13% and want to charge to 75%, there is 62% difference. Charging speed as mentioned is 22%/hour (only for about first 80%). So 62÷22 = 2,82 hours = 2 hours 49 minutes ... this is time needed and you will have it charged to 75%

 

[NULevo]

To show you my simple calculation example for my 700Wh battery and 4A charger:
If you ride home with 13% and want to charge to 75%, there is 62% difference. Charging speed as mentioned is 22%/hour (only for about first 80%). So 62÷22 = 2,82 hours = 2 hours 49 minutes ... this is time needed and you will have it charged to 75%

Thanks Salco, great information, do you know if the 500Wh battery is similar time wise?

 

[salko]

I don't have experiences with 500Wh batteries but I assume it must be like this: charging speed 22%/hour for 700Wh battery will take 154W of power. If you use same 4A charger for 500Wh the charging power stays the same 154W so it means in 1 hour you will charge it for about 31%. If you are using 2A charger then times will get roughly doubled ... But of course these batteries have BMS with its own programmed mind and can act a bit differentely ... Please try and let me now if my theory holds the water ...

 

[NULevo]

I don't have experiences with 500Wh batteries but I assume it must be like this: charging speed 22%/hour for 700Wh battery will take 154W of power. If you use same 4A charger for 500Wh the charging power stays the same 154W so it means in 1 hour you will charge it for about 31%. If you are using 2A charger then times will get roughly doubled ... But of course these batteries have BMS with its own programmed mind and can act a bit differentely ... Please try and let me now if my theory holds the water ...

Thanks, will do salco. I'll be charging my battery out of the bike in the house. I have checked charger and it is 4A.

I'll know the start level from the app and work on 154W per hour, and turn off when the last light begins to flash. Once I have an idea of approx. 20/30% to 80%, I can set a timer for future charges.

 

[salko]

Easies way will be (with low battery) to remember batterly level left and then charge it for exacly 60 min and then check battery level again in MC, then you'll know your exact charging speed below 80% ...

 

[NULevo]

Easies way will be (with low battery) to remember batterly level left and then charge it for exacly 60 min and then check battery level again in MC, then you'll know your exact charging speed below 80% ...

'

Good idea salco, much better than my way

 

[MauryJ]

Thanks for the info. I will try to charge to approx. 80% next time. Do the calc and set my timer.
I assume the charger is intelligent and won’t overcharge if left overnight.

 

[MauryJ]

I never leave the charger connected unattended! I charge during the evening for a ride the next day and usually disconnect the charger once I have 3 solid green lights and the 4th green light flashing. The only real way to know just how much charge has been applied is to use the Mission Control app but that only takes a minute and if need be I can switch the charger back on for 15 minutes or so. I only charge fully if my planned ride is going to be over 20 miles......but if I have not fully charged for a few weeks then I put a full charge in regardless how long my planned ride the following day. The number of charge cycles counted are complete charges......so 2 separate charges each of 50% charge would be counted as 1 full cycle.

Why not charge unattended? Is there a fire danger? Can a “good” battery overheat when charging? Manual says the charger is intelligent and controls charge rate per battery needs.

 

[MauryJ]

Thanks Davarello, good advise!

I've had a reply from Speciallized which has also eased my concerns a little, and I assume a charge cycle is 0 - 100% charge, so If I keep it at 20 - 80% for normal use and charge to 100% if I'm doing a long ride everything should be fine.

Thanks for all your help guys

Here's the response from Specialized:

Hi,

Thank you for your email, it's always great to hear from riders.

Your Turbo Levo's battery has a sophisticated battery management system built in. The BMS will monitor the discharge and condition of the cells to keep everything working at peak performance for you.
There is no need to fully discharge the battery before charging. Simply charge the bike as needed.

The only thing you might wish to bear in mind is that the batteries cells are Li-ion type which are affected by extreme cold weather. At this time of year, try to make sure your battery is at room temperature before use.

Hope this helps and happy cycling,

Just started with the Levo. Using it more on road so far as I get used to it. Was wondering on your room temperature comment. This am I rode at about 45*F. I don’t press it though. Running in eco boost of 15/45 most of the time. Increasing boost for short bursts as needed.
What is the concern about low temps? What range is considered room temperature in this context?

 

[Rusty]

1. Do not leave the battery in a discharged state.
2. Long term storage is best done with battery charge to 30% ( maintained at that)
3. Avoid charging the battery to 100% unless you need the full range.
4. Charge to 100% occasionally ( if normally charged to 80%) in order to balance the cells
5. Allow the battery to sit for c 8 hours before use if charged to 100%
6. charge the battery at room temperature.

Agree with most of that. As far as long term storage goes, based on that Specialized advises their shops to charge to 70% on all batteries that arrive and that other manufacturers recommend 50-70% I think perhaps your 30% is a bit low.

I agree that if you are only doing short rides not charging to full is possibly a good idea. As far as balancing the cells, based on using assorted battery powered lights, power tools and other devices powered by Li-Ion batteries it is the last 90-100% where the balancing occurs.