Latex ball with mousse tire insert

[albizu]

When I remove the tire I've seen a ball of all latex liquid (Líquido Sellante Tubeless Joe´s 1L) into the tire and no liquid free, and the liquid is not more of 2 month old. I used Eliminator and Butcher tires and Vittoria insert (Air-Liner MTB).

Has anyone else had this issue?

 

[steve_sordy]

This happens with latex sealants. I have had several objects in there, the last one looked like a 3D starfish. For it to happen in two months seems rather quick though, I wonder if you have a lot of punctures that has allowed some air in and for the sealant to go off? Currently, I am using Continental's Revo sealant, I get about six months.

The good thing is that when you can hear the ball rumbling around, you know its time to top up!

 

[urastus]

I wonder if ambient temperature has much effect on this? Madrid is 33°C right now.

 

[albizu]

I think that the problem is not the temperature or punctures because I have 2 bikes more tubeless but without mousse without this problem.

 

[Gary]

Punctures that allow air IN? to a pneumatic tyre?

Oh Steve... this is why we love you

higher temperatures do indeed dry out liquid sealant quicker.

 

[GrahamPaul]

If I remember rightly, they are known as "Joe's Balls" in the trade.

I use Effetto Mariposa Caffelatex here in Cádiz Province and have to top up every two months in the summer. Especially if the bike gets left in the sun too often.

 

[GrahamPaul]

Currently, I am using Continental's Revo sealant, I get about six months.

That's probably because you live in a part of the world where they give a weather warning for extreme heat when the thermometer goes above 21°C (that's 70°F for the Daily Mail readers, and "2 Fookin' Hot" for those anywhere North of Watford Gap ?)

 

[steve_sordy]

That's probably because you live in a part of the world where they give a weather warning for extreme heat when the thermometer goes above 21°C (that's 70°F for the Daily Mail readers, and "2 Fookin' Hot" for those anywhere North of Watford Gap ?)

And of course we all walk about in short sleeves in the snow searching for a decent bevvy on the weekend!
But as we all know "it's not the heat, it's the humidity!"

 

[steve_sordy]

Punctures that allow air IN? to a pneumatic tyre?

Oh Steve... this is why we love you

.................

Yes, you got me there, I cannot believe that I actually wrote that, checked for spelling and so forth and still pressed the Go button. No excuses, it was a proper brain fart.
Mea Culpa, mea maxima culpa.

EDIT: Actually, now I've had time to think about it, while I could have phrased it better I was on the right track! Every time you get a puncture, the tyre loses some air. Therefore you have to add some more air to maintain pressure. That air adds to the drying out effect.

 

[steve_sordy]

This is the 3D starfish I found rumbling around inside my tyre. I couldn't find the pic before, then I found it whilst looking for something else.

 

[Gary]

Every time you get a puncture, the tyre loses some air. Therefore you have to add some more air to maintain pressure. That air adds to the drying out effect.

No mate. It doesn't. But the puncture hole seaping sealant and then eventually drying in and around the puncture hole definitely leads to LESS liquid sealant inside the tyre.

If what you were saying were the case your sealant would be dried out as soon as you first aired up the tyre. It's the pressure of the sealant being pushed through small holes that causes it to dry and bond fixing./plugging the hole not simply being exposed to new air.

 

[steve_sordy]

...........................If what you were saying were the case your sealant would be dried out as soon as you first aired up the tyre. It's the pressure of the sealant being pushed through small holes that causes it to dry and bond fixing./plugging the hole not simply being exposed to new air.

That is interesting. I was certain that it was the contact with air that made latex based sealants go off, which is why it is sealed inside the delivery container with foil. The air inside the tyre will of course make some of it go off, but there is a limited supply of air inside the tyre. I haven't done the calculations, but probably many hundreds of times less in weight than the sealant.

"The pressure of the sealant being pushed through small holes" is also unlikely to make it dry more quickly. The pressure you are talking about is the pressure in the tyre and that hasn't made it go off. What plugs the hole is the bits (fibres, whatever) in the sealant, that plus the viscosity of the sealant plugging what are now very small holes indeed. That the sealant on the outside of the tyre then dries when in contact with an unlimited supply of air is only part of it, if indeed any part of it.

I've used sealants that do not go off in the air, or the tyre for that matter. Yes they will dry out eventually if you leave them open to the air, but inside the tyre they do not. I'm thinking of Slime tubeless here, but also RRP Punctureguard (when it was available) was similar. The sealing was done by an accumulation of bits/fibres jammed into and across the hole by the flow of sealant through the hole. I know the sealed holes never dried out for two reasons: 1) I could count the number of punctures I had by the number of damp spots on the tyre each time I took the bike out. 2) Whenever I changed the tyre, the sealant was always still liquid; even after a year or more. It was the number of punctures I got that depleted the sealant in the end; it never actually went off. When it came to new tyre time, there was never a load of tacky gunge sticking to the inside of the old tyre, like there is with latex-based sealants. (But latex-based sealants do a better job on sealing the porous tyre walls).

 

[Gary]

there is a limited supply of air inside the tyre

Dafuq you on about now Cuz?

 

[steve_sordy]

Dafuq you on about now Cuz?

Dunno how to make it simpler.

 

[Gary]

"The pressure of the sealant being pushed through small holes" is also unlikely to make it dry more quickly. The pressure you are talking about is the pressure in the tyre and that hasn't made it go off.

FFS.
Really?
Please actually think about the new information you're reading before bashing the shit out of that poor keyboard of yours with a massive pointless reply.

 

[Gary]

No. For longer than that.

 

[steve_sordy]

Yes, really.
Thanks for your opinion Gary. You can be really helpful at times, but at other times, not so much.

 

[STATO]

'Latex' we use as sealant is actually a latex and water solution, the latex dries by evaporation of the water.

Air can hold an amount of water depending on its temperature and pressure.
For most of us our air is not holding a high amount of water so when you put it in the tyre it can absorb some of the water from the latex.
However, as you heat air it can hold more water, so warmer climates may see more drying of latex. Unless you live somewhere humid, where the air you put in the tyre is already holding a lot of water. Of course if you leak air out and add more in, you are adding 'dry' air which will absorb more water from the latex.

In summary, latex dries if its hot or you keep adding new air due to a leak.

[Im not a scientist, im sure something i wrote is wrong, but thats the general jist of it]

 

[urastus]

If it is latex based, supposedly, you can add some ammonia to it which stops it going off so quickly. I make my own mix; I add some ammonia if it is the warmer time of year.

Getting back to the OP's question though, I think he believes it may have something to do with using an insert. Looking at the insert he's using it really doesn't seem a good shape of insert if you're going to use sealant. It looks as though it will keep the sealant in two separate masses, more or less. Is it possible that a smaller amount of sealant, as in the sealant could be divided into two masses, would dry out more quickly. He has mentioned that he has two other bikes (think of them as control bikes ) that don't seem to dry out so quickly. Personally, I'd ditch that insert and go with a tannus and a light weight smaller tube and no need for sealant.

 

[FlowDough]

If I remember rightly, they are known as "Joe's Balls" in the trade.

In the states we call them Stan's balls and we had them originally.

 

[albizu]

Getting back to the OP's question though

Yes, my question is if it happens because the insert. I have more bikes tubeless with the same liquid without this problem. Only change the size of tyres (2.0 vs 2.6) and the power (normal vs. eBike) the problem is in the eBile 2.6 with inserts.

 

[urastus]

Yes, my question is if it happens because the insert. I have more bikes tubeless with the same liquid without this problem. Only change the size of tyres (2.0 vs 2.6) and the power (normal vs. eBike) the problem is in the eBile 2.6 with inserts.

Those inserts look problematic to me because of the channels - not a great design for sealant use. So you don't use those inserts with your other bikes? Have you looked at tannus tyre liners? I have one on the rear, with a smaller tube and it just works, no sealant needed. Do you need an insert on the front? I run straight tubeless on the front with sealant and no insert. If you want to keep your existing system, and if your sealant is latex based, you could try adding 1 teaspoon of ammonia to the mix in the tyre. This will keep the sealant in liquid form for longer. A teaspoon is just a starting point. I'd keep a record of progress.

Edit: I just looked at the brand of sealant you're using; this is from their site: "Our product line includes both latex based and latex and ammonia free sealants, ". I'm guessing you have the latex variant because it is going off quickly, but make sure before adding any ammonia.

 

[STATO]

Yes, my question is if it happens because the insert. I have more bikes tubeless with the same liquid without this problem. Only change the size of tyres (2.0 vs 2.6) and the power (normal vs. eBike) the problem is in the eBile 2.6 with inserts.

How much sealant are you using? For a 2.6 you should be using at least 50% more than a 2.0.

Also how many times have you seen this lump of dried sealant. It could just be a one off.

 

[urastus]

How much sealant are you using? For a 2.6 you should be using at least 50% more than a 2.0.

There is an insert.

 

[Gary]

It's the pressure the sealant is pushed through small holes which creates the evaporation and drying that seals the hole. This is also why sealant doesn't seal larger holes.
Inflating. Ie. Inserting air via the valve alone doesn't cause evaporation or drying.

 

[STATO]

There is an insert.

Doesnt matter, the surface area of the tyre is larger so needs more sealant to cover it.

 

[Gary]

Yes, really.
Thanks for your opinion Gary. You can be really helpful at times, but at other times, not so much.

Better now? ?

 

[albizu]

How much sealant are you using? For a 2.6 you should be using at least 50% more than a 2.0. Also how many times have you seen this lump of dried sealant. It could just be a one off.

I use 60 ml in 2.0' and 100ml in 2.6' and it convert in a ball around less than two month (250-300 km).

 

[STATO]

It's the pressure the sealant is pushed through small holes which creates the evaporation and drying that seals the hole. Thus us also why sealant doesn't seal larger holes.
Inflating. Ie. Inserting air via the valve alone doesn't cause evaporation or drying.

Sorry Gary, regular re-inflating will dry out sealant (slowly, a bit at a time if you keep adding air regularly). The air added will absorb some of the moisture from the sealant. Obviously if you have done a decent job of the install and dont have a slow leak you wont be adding enough air over the year or so to cause it to dry fully, but if you need to top off all the time it will dry out due to adding new air.

 

[KennyB]

Wonder what a higher concentration of CO2 than normal air has. I seem to recall reading (I think in the context of using a CO2 inflator to seat a tyre) that it is not recommended in the long term.