I think low assist settings are counter productive depending on your riding style and use of gearing. As I said before the full motor power is available on any setting unless the max setting is limited to below 100. The pedal assist setting is how much power is easy to access. Just like petrol consumption (nearly) in a car the most economical way to drive is to avoid hard acceleration and braking and maintain the momentum of the vehicle. Translated to use of electrical pedal assist power it is nearly the same except hard acceleration is replaced by increased torque on the crank input by the rider.
Kenevo/Levo Efficient Assistant settings ?
- Thread starter Zimmerframe
- Start date
- Thread starter
- #32
98% after 3h:10 minutes.
I think you might be right
Though in this instance the only reason I dropped the settings from default was to try and extend max range from between 20 & 30km's when using mainly Eco. Though reducing the settings to ECO15/25 only had a marginal improvement. It would seem something else has happened for my range to so hugely improve - 30k/1000m in Turbo ! With the battery also taking at least 30% longer to charge, 3:10 to 98% still seems impressively quick though.
I think you might be right
Though in this instance the only reason I dropped the settings from default was to try and extend max range from between 20 & 30km's when using mainly Eco. Though reducing the settings to ECO15/25 only had a marginal improvement. It would seem something else has happened for my range to so hugely improve - 30k/1000m in Turbo ! With the battery also taking at least 30% longer to charge, 3:10 to 98% still seems impressively quick though.
miPbiP
E*POWAH Master
miPbiP
E*POWAH Master
@Zimmerframe for sure you have to get that battery checked.
I don't know what ordering energy is accessed from the battery but if it's randomised rather than in a fixed order then a fault will show up at random times for each discharge cycle.
or maybe it's in "order" from where it stopped, so if you tripped the fault then topped up then you won't hit it again until the battery is nearly empty.
get the dealer to check it I say.
side observation: I rode my nearly new Levo last night with a friend on his 1 year old Canyon Spectral ON (Shimano motor and 500Wh battery). we did the same ride, he's a few kg lighter than me and fitter too. he's also better DH than me so brakes less and flows better.
both going full gas I easily pulled away from him on climbs, and he finished in the last few % of his battery (well in the red), I had 38% left.
whether that's battery use, bike differences or what I don't know, but it's a big difference.
I don't know what ordering energy is accessed from the battery but if it's randomised rather than in a fixed order then a fault will show up at random times for each discharge cycle.
or maybe it's in "order" from where it stopped, so if you tripped the fault then topped up then you won't hit it again until the battery is nearly empty.
get the dealer to check it I say.
side observation: I rode my nearly new Levo last night with a friend on his 1 year old Canyon Spectral ON (Shimano motor and 500Wh battery). we did the same ride, he's a few kg lighter than me and fitter too. he's also better DH than me so brakes less and flows better.
both going full gas I easily pulled away from him on climbs, and he finished in the last few % of his battery (well in the red), I had 38% left.
whether that's battery use, bike differences or what I don't know, but it's a big difference.
- Thread starter
- #35
Sounds like you're stronger/fitter/better looking than you realise !
Interesting results though, so I should at least expect similar performance from the Spesh as I had from the E8000 based on that - rather than 1/3 as I'm getting on average. The battery's been sitting on 98% charged for 45 minutes now .. I can understand the last bit being reduced rate, but that's a bit crazy slow !
Think I'll be sensible, listen to everyones advice/comparisons and take the battery with me tomorrow and try and get there before they close for lunch !
Think that is normal. The last stage of charging is where the bms ensures equalisation of voltage in each cell so it is conditioning rather than charging. So far I have only charged mine to 100% 3 times. Mostly I charge until the 4th light starts flashing. Most of my rides are about 20km so I get down to about 3 or 4 bars which is a good state of charge to leave it in until the next ride. I ride about twice a week but that depends whether there is enough wind to windsurf instead.
miPbiP
E*POWAH Master
man it's tough when e-biking is your fallback sport!
55plusmxinsanity
E*POWAH Elite
Something to note: Specialized recommends waiting 8 hours after a full charge before riding.
Hi guys,
I know i'm a newbie to the forum, but i have been building my own Ebikes and ebike batteries for the past 10years.
A bit to know about lithium cells,, when the battery is new it can take few cycles of charging and discharging to get the full capacity out of them. Also keep in mind that the harder they are drained the less capacity they give. These cells are also very susceptible to temperature change. You will find that during cold winter riding that you will get less capacity too.
The majority of the charging of these packs is done in the first 2/3rd of the charging process, the last 1/3 is is done much more cautiously but is also trying squeeze the very last amounts of juice into pack.
I know i'm a newbie to the forum, but i have been building my own Ebikes and ebike batteries for the past 10years.
A bit to know about lithium cells,, when the battery is new it can take few cycles of charging and discharging to get the full capacity out of them. Also keep in mind that the harder they are drained the less capacity they give. These cells are also very susceptible to temperature change. You will find that during cold winter riding that you will get less capacity too.
The majority of the charging of these packs is done in the first 2/3rd of the charging process, the last 1/3 is is done much more cautiously but is also trying squeeze the very last amounts of juice into pack.
That is the weirdest recommendation ive ever heard. Lithium cells hate being kept fully charged. The cells slowly loose capacity if kept in this state. The only reasoning behind that quote is the bms in the battery pack continues to balance the cells even when the charger has been disabled.
I reckon you just didn’t charge it enough the first few times.
Watch him get range now.
From my experience,
Eco, Trail or Turbo on the same park, similar cadence always brings back around the same distance per charge.
I always get a theoretical 40 to 50km.
I usually only do about 30km on average with around 600m to 800m elevation and always come back with spare juice.
The only time I’ve emptied it dry was on a shuttle day where I rode along with the shuttle bus. 13 runs up a 1km long 100m elevation track and then all gravity tracks down. Eco, easy pedalling up and turbo flat out down. This got me about 52km
Eco 30/50 on big trips, riding with Analogues or road riding.
Trail 50/100 is my go to setting for most rides as I feel it’s the most useable/enjoyable
Turbo 100/100 comes out on the really steep tracks, all jump style tracks and when I have little time to ride.
Range changes depending on so many variables. I think it’s hard to compare what you “Should” be getting but the above is my experiences.
I have seen small changes with different tires, elevation, weather and cadence but nothing dramatic.
Watch him get range now.
From my experience,
Eco, Trail or Turbo on the same park, similar cadence always brings back around the same distance per charge.
I always get a theoretical 40 to 50km.
I usually only do about 30km on average with around 600m to 800m elevation and always come back with spare juice.
The only time I’ve emptied it dry was on a shuttle day where I rode along with the shuttle bus. 13 runs up a 1km long 100m elevation track and then all gravity tracks down. Eco, easy pedalling up and turbo flat out down. This got me about 52km
Eco 30/50 on big trips, riding with Analogues or road riding.
Trail 50/100 is my go to setting for most rides as I feel it’s the most useable/enjoyable
Turbo 100/100 comes out on the really steep tracks, all jump style tracks and when I have little time to ride.
Range changes depending on so many variables. I think it’s hard to compare what you “Should” be getting but the above is my experiences.
I have seen small changes with different tires, elevation, weather and cadence but nothing dramatic.
Bottom of page 1 of the User Manual for the charger ( came as a loose addendum page in my user manual). I read somewhere else that Li-On cells taken to full charge benefit from being time to settle before use. I have no idea what that is all about except it might have something to do with either heat in the cells and/or continued chemical reaction within the cell for a period of time. Who knows!!
…...8 hours....not being KEPT fully charged. I would imagine a lot of people do that quite naturally anyway by charging the bike the night before riding the next day.
55plusmxinsanity
E*POWAH Elite
Haah, ok,8 hours is nothing. I suspect from the manual instructions that the cells continue to balance after charging has completed. Whether this is a natural balancing or something implemented by the bms I could not be sure.
miPbiP
E*POWAH Master
Not clear on this, could you clarify please?
Lithium cells get there capacity rating from a very small current discharge. As an example 0.5amps. It this trickle draining the cell gives full rating such as say 3.5amp hour which I think are in the Levo 500wh packs.
If you double or triple that drain the cell does not perform as well. The cells on the Levo pack are not high drain cells so it should not make too much difference.
I’ve not opened up a Levo pack but from doing some maths...
36v nominal = 10 cells in series 3.6 per cell (4.2 full charged)
14ah = 4 cells in parallel (3.5ah) per cell. (Total 40 cells on the pack).
The bike peaks at around 500watts of power. So to keep it simple each cell is producing just 1C discharge (3.5amps). The C rating denotes how many amps can be pulled from the cell against its amp hour rating. For instance a 3.5ah cells with a 2 C rating could have 7 amps pulled from it without any significant voltage sag to lower performance.
Conclusion.... there should not be any noticeable loss of capacity on the Levo pack as long as they haven’t used the most crap Chinese knock off cells lol. These days, all lithium cells should be able to be drained at a minimum of 1C discharge.
As an example of using lithium polymer cells that are used in the high drain radio controlled hobbyists, some cells have a 130C discharge rating. So if you have a 10amp hour battery it could be drained at 1300amps!
Some good advice though I'd certainly like some clarification from Specialized on the following statement.
All very well if the cells actually start to balance at 98% or whatever but to recommend to constantly charge to 100% & leave it for 8 hours really doesn't make sense. You really don't need to balance every charge or even charge to 100% unless required.
Charging to 100% and leaving it for 8 hours will reduce the expected cycle life - unless there is built-in extra capacity not used for traction but used as a buffer to prevent the bike being left for long periods in an excessive overcharged or undercharged state. Either that or Speech has some super hi tech new battery chemistry.
Or very possibly I have no idea what I'm talking about! Oo
From my understanding Specialized have designed the battery monitoring system (bms) to stop charging the cells at 4.15v per cell instead of the maximum 4.20v. This will increase the lifespan of the cells, and also gives a little wiggle room for any cells that may get slightly out of balance
- Thread starter
- #52
Well .. I went past the big proper spesh store with my battery ... they had a special closed day !
Some time later we looped around past a smaller Spesh store ... they were still closed for lunch ..
So it looks like battery testing will be another day .. I have no other option but to just ride it and enjoy it for now .. Will up the eco and trail settings and see how it performs .. maybe mine has a fault and under low current draw it dumps power randomly, at a high rate into the seat dryer.
Re the balancing. Everything I've ever had still which is lithium does it's cell balancing when still charging/connected to the charger. If they say don't ride for 8 hours after charging - then it won't be connected, so it would seem strange for it to be sitting there using some power performing cell balancing ?
Some time later we looped around past a smaller Spesh store ... they were still closed for lunch ..
So it looks like battery testing will be another day .. I have no other option but to just ride it and enjoy it for now .. Will up the eco and trail settings and see how it performs .. maybe mine has a fault and under low current draw it dumps power randomly, at a high rate into the seat dryer.
Re the balancing. Everything I've ever had still which is lithium does it's cell balancing when still charging/connected to the charger. If they say don't ride for 8 hours after charging - then it won't be connected, so it would seem strange for it to be sitting there using some power performing cell balancing ?
- Thread starter
- #53
Bah !
I thought the battery was just settling in or I was learning to read correctly ..
18km's (590m) on mix of Eco 25/35 & Trail 35/50 - used 48% battery.
So my battery appears to work correctly only on maximum current draw (100/100) anything less and it just sheds electrons like a malting dog.
I thought the battery was just settling in or I was learning to read correctly ..
18km's (590m) on mix of Eco 25/35 & Trail 35/50 - used 48% battery.
So my battery appears to work correctly only on maximum current draw (100/100) anything less and it just sheds electrons like a malting dog.
Looking back through this thread I think you have answered your own question several times but seem reluctant to accept it. If you use settings for pedal assist and are then constantly and deliberately pushing beyond the pedal assist setting, you will use more battery. If you do not intend to mostly stay within the pedal assist setting then set your Max at the same value.
Given that for most folk turbo is a setting only used on rare occasions during a ride, your ECO and Trail settings only use as a maximum half the power available from the motor which begs the question why pay for a powerful motor and then never use it ( or rarely). If you increased your settings so that the 3 are more balanced a cross the power delivery range of the motor, and if you used both your gears and different modes, you will probably spend the majority of any ride in the sweet spot where the motor is most efficient...ie you are getting most bang for your buck.
Given that for most folk turbo is a setting only used on rare occasions during a ride, your ECO and Trail settings only use as a maximum half the power available from the motor which begs the question why pay for a powerful motor and then never use it ( or rarely). If you increased your settings so that the 3 are more balanced a cross the power delivery range of the motor, and if you used both your gears and different modes, you will probably spend the majority of any ride in the sweet spot where the motor is most efficient...ie you are getting most bang for your buck.
- Thread starter
- #55
I'm in denial !
plus, there are times when some batteries seem to take a few charge cycles to settle in - I was hoping it was that. After the good results of the "Turbo" only ride I thought things had been magically fixed. I did still take the battery to the shop for testing, but unfortunately they were having a special "closed" day.
Initially, I wasn't sure if this was something to do with the brose/spesh combo and it just sucked power for some reason compared to my previous E8000 bike, hence my constantly reducing the assistance settings to obtain more range. No matter what settings I use, I seem to have a maximum range of about 33km's - if I'm lucky.
You've lost me there. If I set my Eco pedal assist at 15/25, then it will assist at 15% with a maximum of 25% motor power, so if I push hard in there, I'm doing more work and I should use LESS battery than if I set either number higher ?! If I push harder still above the assist limit (25kph) then I should use no battery. You don't "stay within" pedal assist settings, you just configure them to assist you to different degrees ?
You've lost me again I'm afraid. This was asked earlier if ECO and TRAIL have any other over riding features or limits other than just being effectively names for your settings. So if you set ECO as 100/100 and TRAIL as 100/100 and BOOST as 100/100 then they'd all be the same.
Today I had them set at Eco 25/35 & Trail 35/50 , so yes, on Trail I have it set at half the maximum motor power, because I wanted to prove that the battery was working fine after my Turbo test and should have expected at least 50km's of range. As it is, I probably would leave Trail at something around 35/50 as I find that give me plenty of assistance for getting around at a reasonable speed, in theory - whilst still giving me decent range, and then I have boost at 100/100 for when I need that on harder/faster climbs.
Either way .. I agree - with everyone .. definitely seems like my battery is at fault and it hasn't magically fixed itself - it just only seems to work correctly in Turbo ! (as it was also crap in Eco 30/100 and Trail 50/100).
Get onto it Zimmer, that’s why we pay a premium for this brand. To have the ability to walking in a demand a new battery on the spot.
Tell them your getting half the expected range regardless of the settings/style of riding and that you want a new battery.
FYI
I done 20km and 900m elevation yesterday and used 75% battery. Trail/Turbo
Tell them your getting half the expected range regardless of the settings/style of riding and that you want a new battery.
FYI
I done 20km and 900m elevation yesterday and used 75% battery. Trail/Turbo
Jeff H
Well-known member
What year is this for? On my 2019 Comp neither the charging manual included with my SBC-C04 charger, the full Turbo Levo user manual, or the downloadable pdf mention that 8 hour wait period.
https://media.specialized.com/support/collateral/0000108906.pdf
Maybe not necessary on the latest design battery packs.
55plusmxinsanity
E*POWAH Elite
2019 turbo levo comp
I agree!
I would agree except standing for 8 hours at full charge after every single charge cycle adds up to many many multiples of 8 hours over the lifetime of the battery pack.
That could explain the strange charging regime if the bms stopped charging at a considerably lower voltage than that - but 4.15V is still very close to 100% and cell longevity would still be compromised left at that level for long periods of accumulated time.
It's mentioned in the charger manual that came with my 2019 Kenevo.
I'm in denial !
After the good results of the "Turbo" only ride I thought things had been magically fixed. I did still take the battery to the shop for testing, but unfortunately they were having a special "closed" day.
Initially, I wasn't sure if this was something to do with the brose/spesh combo and it just sucked power for some reason compared to my previous E8000 bike, hence my constantly reducing the assistance settings to obtain more range. No matter what settings I use, I seem to have a maximum range of about 33km's - if I'm lucky.
You've lost me there. If I set my Eco pedal assist at 15/25, then it will assist at 15% with a maximum of 25% motor power, so if I push hard in there, I'm doing more work and I should use LESS battery than if I set either number higher ?! If I push harder still above the assist limit (25kph) then I should use no battery. You don't "stay within" pedal assist settings, you just configure them to assist you to different degrees ?
You've lost me again I'm afraid. This was asked earlier if ECO and TRAIL have any other over riding features or limits other than just being effectively names for your settings. So if you set ECO as 100/100 and TRAIL as 100/100 and BOOST as 100/100 then they'd all be the same.
Today I had them set at Eco 25/35 & Trail 35/50 , so yes, on Trail I have it set at half the maximum motor power, because I wanted to prove that the battery was working fine after my Turbo test and should have expected at least 50km's of range. As it is, I probably would leave Trail at something around 35/50 as I find that give me plenty of assistance for getting around at a reasonable speed, in theory - whilst still giving me decent range, and then I have boost at 100/100 for when I need that on harder/faster climbs.
Either way .. I agree - with everyone .. definitely seems like my battery is at fault and it hasn't magically fixed itself - it just only seems to work correctly in Turbo ! (as it was also crap in Eco 30/100 and Trail 50/100).
Will be interesting to hear what the problem was & how long it takes to fix. My guess is not long. Service quality is probably the main reason I decided to get a Kenevo.
- Thread starter
- #60
OK .. so as I agree with everyone .. and have delayed to make sure there is a problem so I'm not wasting anyones time .. I took the afternoon off work and headed down to the Specialized store with my battery (again- closed on Tuesday), so that they could at least test it ..
Very nice shop .. could have happily bought some Levo's just because they looked shiny and nice.
First chap I spoke to said I needed to speak to another guy who does the e-bikes, but that a guy from Germany had been in last week with a battery problem and they'd swapped it out .. cool - I thought ......
E-bike guy was tied up so ended up speaking to the boss .. who was very nice .. BUT ... when he asked where I'd bought the bike and I said the internet .. that was it ... he wouldn't touch it. I can see his point, but at the same time, I thought if I had a specialized, I have global care .. instead I have to go back to the seller now, which is fair enough and hopefully they'll deal with it, but it does basically mean that I'm in the same boat as if I'd bought any DTC bike and if I have a problem I have to box it up and send it back.
On the bright side, I now have a water bottle which fits - the 600ml/21 oz Specialized bottle - which magically fits where my other 600ml bottle doesn't !
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