My particular interest is actually related to security and theft of e-bikes, with particular interest in E-mountain bikes because they are generally higher value. I was pointed to a few recent posts here that I will try and contribute answers to because I have quite a lot of knowledge in this area, having undertaken a lot of research in the area
Just pointed to this forum as a great place to discuss all things E-Mountain bikes - my interest is about addressing theft!
- Thread starter BackPedal
- Start date
Good to hear your views, presumably you're going to mention your particular interest in this topic?
www.backpedal.co
BackPedal | Theft Protection & Recovery for Ebikes
BackPedal is a nationwide provider of theft protection services for ebikes. Using GPS trackers and dedicated recovery teams, BackPedal is the best chance of getting a stolen ebike back, recovering after 9 out of 10 thefts.
www.backpedal.co
I have a question - out of say 50 bikes stolen, how many have you recovered? I ask because a stolen bike will not normally get left lying around for the public to access afterwards, so nearly all recoveries will need police intervention and this is where the problem arises. Most Force control rooms are overflowing with 'more important' jobs, and punters ringing up saying they have identified their stolen goods on Ebay/Gumtree etc get lost in the mire of priority jobs, a shame given the identification evidence on many is overwhelming.
I am also interested in how you do this. Charging 4.99 a month + £40 for an AirTag as an option. But with 24/7 recovery. How on earth are you recovering bikes, and also, isn't going after any thief dangerous by nature?!
24/7 recovery
If your bike or ebike gets stolen, our professional recovery team get it back quickly and safely.
If your bike or ebike gets stolen, our professional recovery team get it back quickly and safely.
- Thread starter
- #6
I'mGood to hear your views, presumably you're going to mention your particular interest in this topic?
BackPedal | Theft Protection & Recovery for Ebikes
BackPedal is a nationwide provider of theft protection services for ebikes. Using GPS trackers and dedicated recovery teams, BackPedal is the best chance of getting a stolen ebike back, recovering after 9 out of 10 thefts.
I wanted to avoid pushing my business (believe it or not), but of course happy to answer questions. There were questions in the forum yesterday about GPS trackers for e-bikes, so I will answering what I know on that thread. BackPedal itself was set up under 6 months ago - we're self funded and in "beta". Although we have paying customers, we are really not pushing hard at all yet. Our current offer is to fit trackers and recover a bike if stolen. But where we are headed is a much more comprehensive proposition - of Tracker, Recovery and Insurance - (so insurance discount for having the tracking and recovery). A chunk of what I have been doing is looking at the best hardware options. We are also bringing new hardware to the UK market - it's very early days, but I was pointed to this forum by one of the first E-bike retailers I spoke to.
RickBullotta
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
I think if you want to be differentiating here, and truly provide a service of value, you should provide the insurance (re-sell, obviously) directly as part of the subscription. Otherwise it's "just another tracker". Convenience and simplicity matter, and a one-stop-shop for this that offered full replacement value could be a winner.
- Thread starter
- #8
The honest answer is we simply haven't been going long enough to have a full answer to that question! 100% recovery with a sample size of 1! We are focusing on Cambridge at the moment. Our involvement is precisely to bridge the gaps that police cannot cover. Patterns of bike theft are quite complex. They vary from location as well as bike value. One of the keys to what we are doing is precisely to get data to prove out what we are doing. I can say I've learned a lot about what is possible from players in Europe - who have achieved up to 90% recovery. But I realise that until we can demonstrate decent recovery rates here, there will be understandable skepticism. We have to start somewhere.
steve_sordy
Wedding Crasher
Eventually and hopefully, one of the major bike suppliers will decide that there is money to be made in supplying bikes that are more secure. Once one does it and gets a favourable response, all will pile in to stay competitive. There is a precedent for this.
The example I am thinking of is rustproofing of cars. You won't believe it kiddies, but once upon a time, cars were sold without any rust protection at all! Cars just rotted away unless the owners proofed them for themselves. Companies were set up to do this rustproofing for owners of new and nearly new cars. It rapidly became a very big business and with lots of competitors. Eventually one of the car companies decided to have some of that money and sold cars already proofed and with a warranty. All the rustproofing companies were put out of business within a few years. I have no idea which car company it was that was bold enough because I couldn't afford anything but already rusty cars at the time.
A second example would be theft of cars. I used to be able to get into my Ford Cortina with a length of plastic strapping, now you need a degree in electronics from the University of Wandsworth HMP.
The example I am thinking of is rustproofing of cars. You won't believe it kiddies, but once upon a time, cars were sold without any rust protection at all! Cars just rotted away unless the owners proofed them for themselves. Companies were set up to do this rustproofing for owners of new and nearly new cars. It rapidly became a very big business and with lots of competitors. Eventually one of the car companies decided to have some of that money and sold cars already proofed and with a warranty. All the rustproofing companies were put out of business within a few years. I have no idea which car company it was that was bold enough because I couldn't afford anything but already rusty cars at the time.
A second example would be theft of cars. I used to be able to get into my Ford Cortina with a length of plastic strapping, now you need a degree in electronics from the University of Wandsworth HMP.
- Thread starter
- #10
100% agree. I don't want say too much about our strategy (which is never fixed anyway), but we absolutely are not looking to be "just another tracker" - and what you say is where we are heading.
Fair enough. It will be interesting to hear how it goes when you do get more data on how you managed to recover stolen bikes.
And that is where my scepticism lies. If the stolen bike is not in a place accessible to the public and unattended I can see all sorts of problems arising in grabbing it back. Unless you get lucky and it's already been sold on and so your company ends up dealing with it 3rd hand. You might get more compliance from the buyer that way but even so, if I unknowingly bought a stolen 2nd hand ebike for say £4k I still wouldn't hand it over to anyone without a police presence.
In short - how many stolen cars with trackers are recovered without police assistance...?
Semmelrocc
E*POWAH Master
As far as I know, there is at least one bike manufacturer that ships their bikes with several anti-theft "counter measures" built in. They also have teams to track down stolen bikes and replace them if unsuccessful. It's Van Moof, I watched an interesting documentary about them the other day. Definitely a solution other brands should follow!
Cool! I remembered this story from Van Noof that was a great idea!
Why This Bike Company Put a TV on Its Box
Dutch bike manufacturer VanMoof got fed up with how often U.S. shippers damaged its products—so they got creative
www.bicycling.com
Your crack squads of ebike rescue assassins sure do sound cool. I can't wait until they make it into a movie. Hopefully there will be lots of shooting... and helicopters... and explosions... and exploding helicopters.
I don't think I'd be willing to pay extra for your services, though. I just checked my homeowners insurance, and it covers "the belongings inside your home, like furniture or bicycles, even if they're damaged or stolen outside the house." Do you offer a benefit beyond what regular insurance companies already offer as part of their everyday policies?
My dad was a decorating contractor on a big scale. He repainted Kings Cross a couple of times, Schools. Hospitals, that sort of thing. Big problem for him was working in places where you couldn't boot people out during works, so he used to get his lads to put up signs that would say 'Wet point' 'Wet Pint' and so on. He reckoned it made people notice far more than a sign spelt correctly.Cool! I remembered this story from Van Noof that was a great idea!
Why This Bike Company Put a TV on Its Box
Dutch bike manufacturer VanMoof got fed up with how often U.S. shippers damaged its products—so they got creative
There is little point comparing the theft of bikes with the theft of cars. Car theft is mostly broken down into 2 categories; cars taken for a joyride then dumped; car stolen to order and quickly exported.
The significant number of bike thefts is due to the fact that so many now attract high retail value and very few are uniquely identifiable or traceable. As far as Emtbs are concerned their high cost/value is by far the main reason they are stolen. All of us know however that buying an EMTB when the seller has no charger or original receipt is a non starter, so I doubt very many are ever offered for sale in the same country they were stolen. That leaves 2 options. Either strip any decent parts off the bike and sell them all separately, or ship the bike overseas.
( reference the PinkBike articles I mentioned in the other thread.........bike stolen in the USA found being sold on a Mexican Facebook site).
I believe the only viable solution for trackers is via the brands themselves. Of course a company could offer their expertise and services to enable the brands to add that functionality.
The other opportunity is to fill the void that the police clearly have no time or inclination to pursue.........ie finding out where all the stolen bikes go and recovering them. The best partnership route here is via the insurance companies I reckon since ( assuming the bike is insured) it is the insurance companies who then have the greatest vested interest in recovering the bike(s).
The significant number of bike thefts is due to the fact that so many now attract high retail value and very few are uniquely identifiable or traceable. As far as Emtbs are concerned their high cost/value is by far the main reason they are stolen. All of us know however that buying an EMTB when the seller has no charger or original receipt is a non starter, so I doubt very many are ever offered for sale in the same country they were stolen. That leaves 2 options. Either strip any decent parts off the bike and sell them all separately, or ship the bike overseas.
( reference the PinkBike articles I mentioned in the other thread.........bike stolen in the USA found being sold on a Mexican Facebook site).
I believe the only viable solution for trackers is via the brands themselves. Of course a company could offer their expertise and services to enable the brands to add that functionality.
The other opportunity is to fill the void that the police clearly have no time or inclination to pursue.........ie finding out where all the stolen bikes go and recovering them. The best partnership route here is via the insurance companies I reckon since ( assuming the bike is insured) it is the insurance companies who then have the greatest vested interest in recovering the bike(s).
I reckon BP.co premium may be too much for you, if you expect them to deploy to California for a rescue mission.
Is that not just subliminal messaging ?
"Wet Paint" - feck that, I'm in a hurry, I'm not stupid ..
"Wet Point" - Eh ? oooh, brain hurts ... re-boot ...... panic
"Wet Pint" - Uhm.. yes .. bugger her dinner party, I'm off for a nice beer over there instead.
maynard
E*POWAH Elite World Champion
This sounds like something that could work in Africa . Not shore about Europe ( where there's law and police ) .
So actually pretty similar then. And a huge amount of cars are stolen for parts.
It's irrelevant really. My point was that getting a trackered bike back without police assistance will be a problem. The vigilante paedo hunter guys just about get away with their actions and usually manage to scrounge up police help fairly quickly due to the severity of the original offence, but good luck getting plod to drop their current commitments and run on a 1 to assist for an offence of 'theft of bicycle'. And insurance companies won't be interested at the values we are talking about. Maybe for a £70k Range Rover, but not a £5k ebike.
I was referring to activity by a 3rd party on behalf of insurance company ( or companies) to identify organised bike theft and disposal gangs/organisers/routes/methods/storage locations/etc.........rather than them pursuing an individual bike.
Does anybody have actual knowledge of the car, van, agricultural vehicle, motor home, caravan tracker industry? There are some parallels and some differences in principle with e-bikes I recon, but I’m no expert.
A friend of mine has a fairly secure rural area where he rents out fairly secure outdoor storage for caravans and motor homes out of the holiday (use) season. His limited experience of theft of his customer‘s property is that if the b******s want it, it’s taken and never seen again. And part of that is the trackers are detected with some kind of scanner on-site during the theft, chopped out and left where the caravan was standing along with the tow ball lock and wheel clamp. A nice little f-you…
But I suspect that wouldn’t happen with a bike at the site of the theft - well, not the tracker; perhaps the locks etc. If that’s wrong, it would be good to hear actual evidence.
Security is about deterrence, deterrence, deterrence. Effective security isn't about tracking down stolen property, although once it’s gone, it‘s an option I guess (not so much in the U.K.?).
So, does anybody have industry experience of how trackers are effectively used as a deterrence for vehicles? And what, if any, parts of that strategy might transfer to e-bikes?
A friend of mine has a fairly secure rural area where he rents out fairly secure outdoor storage for caravans and motor homes out of the holiday (use) season. His limited experience of theft of his customer‘s property is that if the b******s want it, it’s taken and never seen again. And part of that is the trackers are detected with some kind of scanner on-site during the theft, chopped out and left where the caravan was standing along with the tow ball lock and wheel clamp. A nice little f-you…
But I suspect that wouldn’t happen with a bike at the site of the theft - well, not the tracker; perhaps the locks etc. If that’s wrong, it would be good to hear actual evidence.
Security is about deterrence, deterrence, deterrence. Effective security isn't about tracking down stolen property, although once it’s gone, it‘s an option I guess (not so much in the U.K.?).
So, does anybody have industry experience of how trackers are effectively used as a deterrence for vehicles? And what, if any, parts of that strategy might transfer to e-bikes?
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jimslade
Member
I've thought long about ebike security as well, and optimal combinations of smart lock + tracker + registry + insurance. Ultimately I always come back to the manufacturer... IMO the bike has to be bricked and impossible to resell/service if stolen. Otherwise there are too many quick ways around mitigations no matter how sophisticated.
I'd love to help solve this problem but without help from the manufacturer I think effectiveness is limited.
I'd love to help solve this problem but without help from the manufacturer I think effectiveness is limited.
steve_sordy
Wedding Crasher
I have my bike inside a garage that has the two up and over doors bolted to the floor. The window openings are bolted shut. The man access door has two 5-lever mortice locks and three heavy duty 4" stainless steel hinges. The bike is secured with a Kryptonite floor anchor and a Kryptonite New York chain. The front wheel and fork is also secured with a Kryptonite cable and a Gold secure combo lock. My insurance broker was so pleased that he sent a copy of the photo of my last bike (below) to the insurers. (The cable has since been moved to include the fork).
Edit: And the pedestrian door is 40mm (1.5") thick solid wood (not chipboard, MDF, or panels, or plastic).
But I suspect that any thief that gains entry will just saw through the frame and take the bike for its fork, shock, motor, batter, wheels...... Much faster and quieter.
Edit: And the pedestrian door is 40mm (1.5") thick solid wood (not chipboard, MDF, or panels, or plastic).
But I suspect that any thief that gains entry will just saw through the frame and take the bike for its fork, shock, motor, batter, wheels...... Much faster and quieter.
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2WheelsNot4
E*POWAH Master
I'm all for public flogging of bike thieves. Possibly even stocks to so we can throw rotten veg at them(shit too)
steve_sordy
Wedding Crasher
I can think of worse. Make them ride over a bumpy trail for 40 miles, with no saddle and pointy seat post.
Bigkatoomer
Member
My garage has been attacked by thieves four times. They're after the motorbikes and ebike.
I don't believe in the 'If they want it, they will get it'. The thieves last attempt, they didn't get more than a heavy touch on the garage door.
I wrote a long piece on what works for me in another post. A blend of prevention items (floodlights, cameras, gravel, secure-looking doors), slowing them down in their theft (locks, chains, ground anchors), and setting the clock running as soon as they start (I have a total of 6 sirens in the garage, and smoke alarm siren and smart lighting in the house, and noisy alerting on my phone to wake me up whereever I am to check outside or on cameras). The sirens ramp up from a 'chirp' if you walk past the garage doors, to a short single alarm if you bang the door, to air-raid Defcon if the garage door is opened or there's movement inside. The scenarios are all programmed through smartthings so they're only 'armed' when relevant, and I have virtually no false alarms.
Steve's setup looks pretty good, but to me, that chain looks croppable, or swiftly angle grinded? 16mm links should be the minimum to slow people up, I use 16mm and the Oxford Beast 22mm too. You also need alarms to be going off so they don't have all the time in the world. Cameras are useful to confirm it's not a false alarm. Don't expect to get a decent ID of a thief face off them though.
Finally. All my stuff has trackers of various specs. The ebike has a GPS tracker and a Tile. The Tile may help if you are 'fairly' sure it's in 'that' house - If you can make it play a tune, that would be enough to get the Police interested.
I have insurance too, but if the thieves are able to get away with it, and make money from it, then they'll keep doing it, so I am not prepared to simply rely on claiming on my insurance.
If any of you thinking about it and don't know where to start, invest in a decent 16mm+ lock, chain AND ground anchor, and a PIR siren for the garage (that is loud enough to wake you too).
Back to the OP business proposition - Worth a go sir, and I wish you well - I certainly have no desire to 'get involved' in the recovery - Perhaps your team are a little braver than me.
And I'm sure you discovered long before me, carbon fibre is AMAZING at blocking GPS signals and plastic boxes inside them can rattle easily, so, mount smart!
All the best everyone.
I don't believe in the 'If they want it, they will get it'. The thieves last attempt, they didn't get more than a heavy touch on the garage door.
I wrote a long piece on what works for me in another post. A blend of prevention items (floodlights, cameras, gravel, secure-looking doors), slowing them down in their theft (locks, chains, ground anchors), and setting the clock running as soon as they start (I have a total of 6 sirens in the garage, and smoke alarm siren and smart lighting in the house, and noisy alerting on my phone to wake me up whereever I am to check outside or on cameras). The sirens ramp up from a 'chirp' if you walk past the garage doors, to a short single alarm if you bang the door, to air-raid Defcon if the garage door is opened or there's movement inside. The scenarios are all programmed through smartthings so they're only 'armed' when relevant, and I have virtually no false alarms.
Steve's setup looks pretty good, but to me, that chain looks croppable, or swiftly angle grinded? 16mm links should be the minimum to slow people up, I use 16mm and the Oxford Beast 22mm too. You also need alarms to be going off so they don't have all the time in the world. Cameras are useful to confirm it's not a false alarm. Don't expect to get a decent ID of a thief face off them though.
Finally. All my stuff has trackers of various specs. The ebike has a GPS tracker and a Tile. The Tile may help if you are 'fairly' sure it's in 'that' house - If you can make it play a tune, that would be enough to get the Police interested.
I have insurance too, but if the thieves are able to get away with it, and make money from it, then they'll keep doing it, so I am not prepared to simply rely on claiming on my insurance.
If any of you thinking about it and don't know where to start, invest in a decent 16mm+ lock, chain AND ground anchor, and a PIR siren for the garage (that is loud enough to wake you too).
Back to the OP business proposition - Worth a go sir, and I wish you well - I certainly have no desire to 'get involved' in the recovery - Perhaps your team are a little braver than me.
And I'm sure you discovered long before me, carbon fibre is AMAZING at blocking GPS signals and plastic boxes inside them can rattle easily, so, mount smart!
All the best everyone.
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