Its 2024. So where are the frameset emtb options from all the big brands?

[Neeko DeVinchi]

This question has been asked way too often. So I'm starting this thread to DELIBERATELY challenge brands who feel obliged to only offer complete builds for emtbs, knowing that a vast majority of riders are buying entry level emtbs options within a given model and upgrading them to a specification where they're satisfied with the build. Which somewhat proves that their is a market for emtb framesets.

Take this Nukeproof Megawatt frameset which those who use ebay.uk may have spotted being sold by ebay seller:Tri-sport_resort (which is basically Wiggle, Wolverhampton).
This frameset (without the motor battery, shock, system etc) on average has sold for £300-£500 between November 2023 - January 2024.

Say what you will about the reason why this frameset became available. But it cannot be denied that when the opportunity presented itself, people bought the frame.

And even I decided to pick one up.

And sourced the necessary components and system to complete the build.
View attachment 131622
The EP801 was sourced fairly easily and I note that others have followed the exact same route as myself WITHOUT COLABORATING WITH ONE ANOTHER.

Clearly demonstrating that their is a market for those who ARE GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY.

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£2679.56 to build from a frame only, using a combination of existing parts and some brand new. Whether you consider the price good value or expensive, is dependent on how you look at ebike ownership overall.

Although on a personal note, I don't typically stumble on many XXL frame sizes often in any of my local bike shops.

But like I said, I think the question needs to be asked AGAIN for the mainstream industry brands to FINALLY consider. I.e.

WHERE ARE THE FRAMESET EMTB OPTIONS?

Gone are the days where the fabled arguments of 'geometry' & 'quality' could be used to sway opinions from frameset offerings from the east.

Because I'm sure many of you recognise that quite a few brands have their frames manufactured in the east.

Some of whom, even sharing the same manufacturering facilities. And these frames are quickly proving themselves as being just as capable in terms of durability and quality.

But I digress. The mainstream brands CANNOT AFFORD to overlook brands who do offer emtb frameset options. Otherwise,

They'll quickly find themselves competing and contending with brands from the East which they wouldn't have saw coming. And some of these brands are using motor systems like Shimano, Brose, Yamaha, TQ, Bosch etc.

Food for thought!!

Their is a market for emtb framesets.

And data exists PUBLICLY online spanning 5 years. Even on this same forum.

Enough is enough!!
If a brand can offer regular bike framesets (alloy or carbon), then that same brand doesn't have an excuse to NOT offer emtb framesets in 2024.

And I predict that this question WONT be so easy for these brands to ignore for this year.

 

[Bomble]

You’ve kind of answered your own question, they make a shedload more money selling a complete bike

 

[Mabman]

Having built many bikes from the frame up over the years I see the attraction, and a potential market, for a frame option but I would also add that it would include the electronic package as well? The attraction would be for those that have all the bits and bobs to finish it off, or at least most of them in their shed. Whether loose or attached to their current bike.

Of course it would have to be made available in at least SM/Med/Lg with modern geometry and good electronics. However if you add all that up and insert it into a business plan given the way the bike biz is going these days I would be holding my breath.

Looks like it will be DengFu and other Chinese small shop manufacturers that will have the corner on the market for the foreseeable future.

 

[Doomanic]

Brands don’t need an excuse. They will employ business analysts who will monitor the market and market forces will decide for them.
Spesh offer frameset and motor S-Works that cost about the same as their complete Comp models so only really appeal to handy dentists.

I’m doubtful that there would quite so many NP frames on eBay if Chiggle weren’t circulating the drain and desperately trying to generate revenue.

 

[sethimus]

how many of the same pictures fit into one post?

the op: yes

 

[RustyMTB]

how many of the same pictures fit into one post?

the op: yes

 

[InRustWeTrust]

more and more manufacturers are starting to offer just the frame for purchase. demand is likely to be high as several manufacturers offer this option.

Here are som manufactures that is offering emtb frame only option .


Trek
pole
Scott
commencal
pyga
And some chinese noname frames.

 

[Zimmerframe]

So I'm starting this thread to DELIBERATELY challenge anyone to read all of this post and see it's many weird and unnecessary pictures.

I might be wrong but I think you meant to write what I've edited to.

Either that or your New Years Resolution is :

"I shall endeavour, unequivocally, to SPAM all of my own posts"

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

...your New Years Resolution is :

I don't bother making them

 

[VWsurfbum]

When I have enquired before about purchasing a frame-only option, it has always been said it has to do with the import duty of complete builds having less duty on them and is cheaper to do than frame-only.

 

[Canyon Shawn]

So, after reading this, I discussed this subject with a family member that works high up for a large company that makes Ebikes. His response to me was, that they have spent a lot of time and money researching, just selling frames. Their conclusion was, that Ebikes are like the breaking point for 99% of bike purchasers. By breaking point I mean that, a large number of people are ok with building up their own analog bikes, because they are simple. But, Ebikes are complicated enough that only 1% of the Ebike purchasers would contemplate a frame only purchase for a custom build. And even less than 1% would ever actually build a custom Ebike from a frame they purchased. The frame only options that they have available are for warranty replacements only.

 

[Ou812]

One of my best friends back in the US started selling frame only in the brands that he carries a few years ago. He’ll take all the components off and sell them separately. He said he’s sold more frame only e-bikes than anything else since he’s started doing it.

 

[Canyon Shawn]

One of my best friends back in the US started selling frame only in the brands that he carries a few years ago. He’ll take all the components off and sell them separately. He said he’s sold more frame only e-bikes than anything else since he’s started doing it.

Does he have a web site where we can buy stuff?

 

[deereatingapplesauce]

Fezzari sells a timp peak frameset for 170mm ebike. That's a pretty sweet option. I wish there were more frame only options in normal bikes too.

 

[Bummers]

Just to bump this, I'm looking for a decent emtb frame that will fit a Bosch gen 4 motor, is there anything available? Ideally not carbon fibre...

 

[Neeko DeVinchi]

Just to bump this, I'm looking for a decent emtb frame that will fit a Bosch gen 4 motor, is there anything available? Ideally not carbon fibre...

I'll keep an eye out for alloy framesets which use the Bosch Gen4.

Ironically, I'm starting to stumble upon framesets (alloy & carbon) which use the Shimano ep801

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

Just to bump this, I'm looking for a decent emtb frame that will fit a Bosch gen 4 motor, is there anything available? Ideally not carbon fibre...

This doesn't sound good, what's happened to the Cube?

 

[Bummers]

This doesn't sound good, what's happened to the Cube?

It turns out there's a major defect in the cube carbon frames. One of the motor mount points is made from extremely thin carbon fibre and the threaded insert is barely held in. These have been failing and cube have been refusing warranty claims saying it's either 'wear and tear' or damage has been caused by misuse.
The cube emtb Facebook group has quite a number of people now reporting this issue.
It didn't help either that cube specified 20nm as the torque value for these bolts when it is actually 11nm (20 is for aluminium framed bikes, not CF).

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

It turns out there's a major defect in the cube carbon frames. One of the motor mount points is made from extremely thin carbon fibre and the threaded insert is barely held in. These have been failing and cube have been refusing warranty claims saying it's either 'wear and tear' or damage has been caused by misuse.
The cube emtb Facebook group has quite a number of people now reporting this issue.
It didn't help either that cube specified 20nm as the torque value for these bolts when it is actually 11nm (20 is for aluminium framed bikes, not CF).

I've seen the comments and wondered if this was the case for you, sorry to hear of your trouble
Has yours completely failed?

I was checking the motor bolts on mine a while back as I noticed a creak coming from somewhere, turns out it was a loose motor bolt.

Looking at the frame I did notice the carbon around the bolt holes looks a bit substandard, I said to myself at the time that it could easily be damaged if the bilt was over torqued.

I mentioned this on a post on the cube Facebook page, suggesting not to over torque these bolts, instead to use a lower torque value (12nm) and to use thread lock, I was shut down by most saying the correct torque is 20nm.

I've secured mine to 12nm with thread lock and I'm going to keep a close eye on them, it's worrying as I can see how easily the frame can fail at these points if the bolts come loose, cube should be stepping up here, don't go down without a fight.

As for another frame, does Crestline not do frame only option?

 

[Doomanic]

@Bummers did you pay for it on a credit card? Even if it was only the deposit you can use Section 75 to get the card company involved for the full amount.

 

[Bummers]

I've seen the comments and wondered if this was the case for you, sorry to hear of your trouble
Has yours completely failed?

I was checking the motor bolts on mine a while back as I noticed a creak coming from somewhere, turns out it was a loose motor bolt.

Looking at the frame I did notice the carbon around the bolt holes looks a bit substandard, I said to myself at the time that it could easily be damaged if the bilt was over torqued.

I mentioned this on a post on the cube Facebook page, suggesting not to over torque these bolts, instead to use a lower torque value (12nm) and to use thread lock, I was shut down by most saying the correct torque is 20nm.

I've secured mine to 12nm with thread lock and I'm going to keep a close eye on them, it's worrying as I can see how easily the frame can fail at these points if the bolts come loose, cube should be stepping up here, don't go down without a fight.

As for another frame, does Crestline not do frame only option?

I've not checked mine yet but I did torque them to that value. I was just testing the water to see what options are available.
You were shot down as one of the admins reached out to cube themselves to get the official word on the torque value, which they told us was 20nm. If that's what the manufacturer says, who are we to argue?
It turns out that figure came from Bosch and it was the value for the bolt of that particular tensile steel, nothing at all to do with what material it was being secured into!

@Doomanic I did pay half on 0% credit card, that's a good shout and if there is any damage I'll be sure to get them involved.

I've just lost faith with that frame though, the mount is so poorly constructed it's not fit for purpose.

 

[Gareth]

It turns out there's a major defect in the cube carbon frames. One of the motor mount points is made from extremely thin carbon fibre and the threaded insert is barely held in. These have been failing and cube have been refusing warranty claims saying it's either 'wear and tear' or damage has been caused by misuse.

One of my inserts fell out. This was after the bike shop I was using gave me the wrong figure for torquing the motor mount screws. I was assured it was 40Nm. I wish I had of given that figure more consideration……..

When I fitted my motor I got to just past 30Nm and I stopped. It just didn’t feel right and I knew I must have done some damage.

When I next took the motor out one of the inserts came loose. Also, the inserts are just aluminium and pretty soft.

Anyway, I just glued it back in and carried on.

If you are unlucky enough to have this happen to you then VM100 glue from Materials, equipment and training for advanced composites with next-day shipping and expert technical advice. - Easy Composites is what you want. I bought a 50ml tube (loads more than I needed) along with the Cartridge Gun and nozzles.

Thread with photos here - 2021 Cube 140 Action Team Bosch motor mount torque setting

 

[Hattori-Hanzo]

I've not checked mine yet but I did torque them to that value. I was just testing the water to see what options are available.
You were shot down as one of the admins reached out to cube themselves to get the official word on the torque value, which they told us was 20nm. If that's what the manufacturer says, who are we to argue?
It turns out that figure came from Bosch and it was the value for the bolt of that particular tensile steel, nothing at all to do with what material it was being secured into!

@Doomanic I did pay half on 0% credit card, that's a good shout and if there is any damage I'll be sure to get them involved.

I've just lost faith with that frame though, the mount is so poorly constructed it's not fit for purpose.

I was fortunate and found torque values of 12nm and 22nm for carbon and alloy respectively before securing mine, though it seemed strange to me as all cube 160 hybrid frames are carbon, so why list a value for alloy at all? Unless, like you say it's a generic value from Bosch for the gen 4 motor.

I totally agree that the mounting holes look a bit under engineered, but they should be adequate as the frame gets its strength and rigidity from anchoring to the motor.

The issue seem to come when one or a number of bolts work loose, this causes the motor to twist in the frame, which in
turn damages the carbon and inserts.

The other issue I've read is over torquing of the bolts, which results in the carbon being crushed around the insert.
When I was torquing to 12nm I feared to go any more as I could hear the carbon compressing at this value.

If It were me, I'd remove all of your motor bolts one by one and inspect the carbon and inserts, fingers crossed there is no damage.
Clean the bolts and inserts thoroughly with brake cleaner or acetone and reinstall the bolts with a good quality medium strength liquid thread lock, torquing to 12nm.

I'd then put witness marks on all bolts as a quick visual check, while also checking them frequently with a torque wrench to ensure they are not working loose.

With all this said I currently have no concerns of the over all strength of the frame, if you're a lighter or average weight rider it should take some abuse, though time will tell on the motor mounts, hopefully with regular checks they will hold up.

Don't give up on the frame just yet though if yours is damaged, I have seen someone cut away their damaged motor mounts and replace them with an alloy bracket, it's another option if Cube are not playing ball.

I'd be really interested in how you get on, maybe it would be good to start a dedicated thread so as not to derail this one too much.

 

[pistol78]

Hi, just found the threads on the cube motor mounts.
My stereo hybrid 140 pro 2024 is in the shop now after finding the rear carbon mounts have cracked, not all the way through but bad enough.
Rode the bike for 96 miles altogether before hearing a creak from the motor area.
I'm hoping this can be sorted through warranty but it's been nearly a month so far and cube just keep asking for photos and diagnostic reports from the motor for some reason.
I haven't rode it hard so I'm thinking it's over or under torqued bolts?

 

[Doomanic]

I'm hoping this can be sorted through warranty but it's been nearly a month so far and cube just keep asking for photos and diagnostic reports from the motor for some reason.

They are trying to weasel out of the warranty. The have previous for this.

How old is the bike and how did you pay for it?

 

[pistol78]

They are trying to weasel out of the warranty. The have previous for this.

How old is the bike and how did you pay for it?

Bought it in June through a finance company.

 

[Doomanic]

Did you pay any part of it on a credit card, even just a holding deposit?

If I was you, I would go to Citizen's Advice and clarify what your rights are after such a short time.

 

[pistol78]

Did you pay any part of it on a credit card, even just a holding deposit?

If I was you, I would go Citizen's Advice and clarify what your rights are after such a short time.

Yeah, I'm keeping that in my back pocket, the bike shop where I bought it have been good so far and my LBS have given me confidence it'll get sorted so I'll hold on and see what happens whit them first.

 

[pistol78]

I was thinking about looking for a new frame from a different company if it goes sideways but reading this thread it doesn't look like that'll be an option.

 

[Doomanic]

That's all well and good, but you need to keep on at them. While it's not their fault it is their responsibility.