Is it that hard to pedal after hitting the speed limit?

[spleenexploded]

I'm one good sale away from finally getting myself a proper e-mtb so my research has increased.

Around the web I've seen a lot of people moaning about the 15mph EU speed restriction, and how when using their ebike in the city normal cyclists are always passing them as the restriction is too slow.

Speed restriction arguments aside, is it that hard to pedal after hitting 15mph? My assumption was that it would be easier to get up to speed, then you could pedal to the same speed as you normally would if you didn't have a motor? Does the increased weight have that much of an impact to manual pedalling? Is there something else I haven't considered?

If it makes much of a difference the bikes I'm looking at have either the Shimano EP8 or Bosch Performance Line CX (that Canyon Strive:On CFR looks beautiful).

(FWIW I've been riding my normal mtb on trails and in the city for years)

 

[Paulquattro]

Hi
Your fitness level head winds and the fact your riding an offroad bike and a heavy one at that come into play before motor drag in my opinion
Motor drag with a lot of motors these days is minimal
I personally on the flat with no wind influence and 2.8" tyres hold around 17mph any hills thou and motor support comes back in and speed drops
a good tail wind and i kept up 23 mph the other day on the flat for a mile but i was pushing
So in summary the bikes are not made for high speed on the roads with a legal bike at least
Others will be along soon with there experiences for you im sure.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Generally, it won't make any difference which bike you're looking at.

Peoples comparisons are often skewed, they'll compared a mountain bike with a road bike or commuter.

So 7kg's or 12kg's with 25kg's.

Tyres make a HUGE difference. A mountain bike setup for riding actual trails will have chunky tyres which have incredible off road grip, but a far higher rolling resistance.

Then you have the psychological side..

You're pedalling your EMTB, even in it's lowest mode - so it's like someone's also pushing you, but you take this for granted and adjust to it. Then you get to 15mph/25kph and the motor stops helping .. you're then one person and not two with 25kg's and lots of drag - it's like someone hit the brakes.

If you learn to adjust to this, drop a gear before hand, increase the cadence, power on, it's not so bad.

But it is obviously harder - otherwise ebikes wouldn't be so attractive if they didn't give that shove in the back !!!!

If you were riding around on a DH bike with draggy tyres, everyone would be passing you.

Just try riding once in while with the power off .. it doesn't suddenly get harder at 15kph ... it's just like riding a heavy draggy bike from the weight and tyres. In the scheme of things, the motor adds zero drag.

And yes .. the Canyon is hot and very very capable !!

 

[RustyIron]

My assumption was that it would be easier to get up to speed, then you could pedal to the same speed as you normally would if you didn't have a motor? Does the increased weight have that much of an impact to manual pedalling? Is there something else I haven't considered?

Nope, you've pretty much figured it out. And yeah, it can make a bit of a difference. For example, my acoustic and E bikes have similar drivetrains. There's a stretch of asphalt that I sometimes ride to connect two trails. It's flat and level. On the acoustic, I hit about 28 mph before I'm spun out. On the eMTB, I don't spin out, but at about 22-24 mph, I'm working about has hard as I care to. So you can use those numbers for comparison.

On downhill runs, the two bikes are much more equal. If it's pure downhill, the acoustic bike can be just a hair faster. If the run has a few level spots or uphill sections, the added power of the eMTB can make it faster.

So for me, if someone is going to pass me on the downhill, they're a better rider and a different bike won't help me much. In the city and on the asphalt? I don't really care. I'm a mountain bike rider, not some skinny lycra clad roadie.

 

[Polar]

Speedlimit sucks especially in EU but that's life. Most modern motors don't have much dragging you can test it by hanging ebike on a workstation and spin the motor with pedals but emtb got more weight than analog, big tires with low pressure. When on flat roads use low gears, high psi ~35 and high cadence ~120 it's no problem cruising ~30 km/h but different motors have different cadence sweetspot and most owners will tell their motor is best therfore I'm telling you Specialized 2.2 is best

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

yes, I try not to do it

 

[Plummet]

Above the limiter you are slower than a traditional mtb. The bike is heavier and there is also motor drag to contend with.

 

[irie]

Above the limiter you are slower than a traditional mtb. The bike is heavier and there is also motor drag to contend with.

On my 2022 Rail alloy with Bosch CX motor mainly due to increased bike weight which is far more significant than motor drag (if any).

 

[Expidia]

Right at 19 mph my Bosch Performance CX motors feel like a heart punch crossing that 20 mph limit. Then I'm on my own and as others have said you can't compare a non motorized bike at the same 20 mph because mine weigh like 60 lbs with 2.4 wide tires. I have two Powerflys which were not designed to be road or commuter style bikes (more of a hybrid xcountry style). I did notice when I owned a Giant Explore, it's Yamaha motor made a very smooth transition at it's 28 mph limit without that heart punch feeling of Bosch motors as they cross their limits.

 

[irie]

I believe that my Trek Rail motor assistance cutout is at about 16mph.

I suspect that if I could pedal my ~26kg Rail without having a motor fitted, at just over 16mph it would feel just like it now does with the motor fitted just after motor assistance cutout. In other words, it's the transition from assistance to no assistance that feels like drag.

 

[Dax]

Everyone gets all excited about the motor drag when they pass the limiter, but the reality is they’re just trying to pedal a 25kg bike in the completely wrong gear for the speed/gradient and their fitness level.

Take a regular enduro bike, add 10kg of lead, select the same gear as you’d be using on the e-bike, get a tow up to 16mph and you’ll have a miserable time pedalling.

 

[ilostmypassword]

yes. my analog mates on the flats are miles ahead. but I am on a 25kg bike with tractor tyres

 

[Rando_12345]

It's all been said above, but to give a specific example, my wife has a commuter ebike from Liv/Giant, I have a Giant Reign, slightly different motors but both from Yamaha, and both bikes weigh the same ~25Kg.

My electric enduro bike with 160mm travel, 2.6" 1.3kg soft compound, 20psi tyres does not pedal very well above the assistance limit.
My wife's hardtail with 1.8" light hard rubber, 2.5psi tyres pedals very easily above the assistance limit. Even with the panier racks both loaded up with stuff.

I would also argue that "normal cyclists passing by" in commutes isn't really a thing, other commuters go roughly the same speed (can be a bit annoying to overtake) whether on ebikes or normal bikes. Only fully lycra'd up roadies will overtake you consistently, even with a the lower 25kph limit, as there is already considerable wind resistance at those speeds, so only people looking for a workout will be going faster.

 

[Petrex]

I had a Bosch CX and it was like hitting a brick wall at exactly (?) 15.63 MPH (German !).
I upgraded to a Full Sus (Levo C.A.) Specialized 2.2 motor. Smooth transition and no hystrionics. Could never go back to anything like the Bosch
I know tons of others love them, but not for me.

 

[steve_sordy]

The Shimano motors (EP8 and the previous e8000) each have a smooth transition past the (25kph/15.63mph) cut out point. As others have said, it's the weight and the big draggy tyres that do the damage, not the motor.

If you are commuting regularly, either pump up the tyres as high as you dare, or best of all, get another wheelset that has thinner tyres with a hard compound and a smooth tread. You will fly!

 

[RebornRider]

So many people talking about motor drag. Now maybe other makers aren't as savvy as Specialized (humor!), but my Levo has a clutch between the motor and the pedals. The motor can power the pedals, but the pedals can't power the motor. If (and that's a big if) your bike has any motor drag when you are above the assistance cut-off, blame the clutch, not the motor.

 

[Rich-H]

I'm one good sale away from finally getting myself a proper e-mtb so my research has increased.

Around the web I've seen a lot of people moaning about the 15mph EU speed restriction, and how when using their ebike in the city normal cyclists are always passing them as the restriction is too slow.

Speed restriction arguments aside, is it that hard to pedal after hitting 15mph? My assumption was that it would be easier to get up to speed, then you could pedal to the same speed as you normally would if you didn't have a motor? Does the increased weight have that much of an impact to manual pedalling? Is there something else I haven't considered?

If it makes much of a difference the bikes I'm looking at have either the Shimano EP8 or Bosch Performance Line CX (that Canyon Strive:On CFR looks beautiful).

(FWIW I've been riding my normal mtb on trails and in the city for years)

I'm relatively new to ebikes but have been ridding mtb's for a long time. I bought a Gen 3 Levo at the end of last year and loved most things about it. The one thing I couldn't get on with was the brick wall I hit when riding above the limiter on more mellow terrain. I ended up swapping to a Gen 2 Levo SL 6 months later and it resolved this issue, it feels far more like a regular mtb in many respects, especially above the limiter.

I'm not convinced this was all down to weight and tyre drag as I'm using the same tyres and the weight reduced by 4kg, yes that's a fair amount but not enough to account for the massive difference in lack of drag above the limiter...

 

[Kevjob51]

I sometimes ride my reign e+ with motor off, I dont feel any motor drag just 20 lbs more than mtb and grippy velco tires don't help either but is doable on flatish and slight downhills.

 

[Loppy Lou]

It does depend on the bike, I'm saying this from experience because I own three, a Vitus VR which is heavy but strong that has a lot of drag on a shimano E7000 65nm. A Hiabike downhill xduro 10, now that has terrible drag because the motor has a small front cogfitted so it is geared internally and you really know when the drag kicks in, its lick pedalling a train, Bosch CX, and last but the best a Cannondale Moterra Neo 3 with carbon frame, it has a Bosch CX gen 4 85nm and you bearly feel the drag because the bike is lighter than the others. I often ride it without power when with the grand children and it has magic marry tyres which are super chunky grippy, so there are differences in the bikes, motors, tyres, frame combination. "Go light is my advice". Or buy a US spec bike, I hired one for the trails in New Zealand and they dont drag until 30kph, so basically always cover your normal riding speed on a mountain bike with grippy tyres, that extra 5 kph makes all the difference. You can of course fit a desrectrictor like I have done on my Hiabike xduro 10 and you will never feel any drag..... ever!! but no longer road legal so its a forest and hills bike.

 

[mmcengineer]

no keep at it mate its only a wee bit difficult but you will have legs like this ,soon the limiter will be a thing of the past

 

[wenna]

View attachment 123439

no keep at it mate its only a wee bit difficult but you will have legs like me ,soon the limiter will be a thing of the past

Förstemann does not have human dna

 

[rzr]

depends on your fitness.
on my Levo with stock tires (light ones Specialized), quite often I was returning from my ride on a tarmac, doing 26-27km/h for 10km (and often having almost flat battery).
However now, I have DH tires front and rear and it'd be way more difficult.

unfortunatelly 25km/h restriction is utterly stupid for advanced rider, quite often on many trails I'm going faster, but there is not point on pedalling anymore (with DH tires etc.)... (on a normal bike i'd go faster there)

 

[Hardtail]

I have always found it entertaining the argument that motors provide little or no resistance. Then people say take off the chain and spin the cranks to prove that there is no resistance, have you ever done that? It proves just how much resistance there is!
The more/faster you spin them the more resistance there is...
Rolling resistance is non-linear so it gets harder the more/faster you go, the same is said for heavy wheels, tires and bikes.
Put an ebike next to an analogue with the chains off and see which crank spins the easiest.
Pedalling over the limit is horrendous.

 

[rzr]

that's true, when you move forward, there is one-way clutch and you are not rotating your motor (even when it's off).
resistance from the motor is minimal (only from the one-way clutch).
all resistance comes from weight and different tires (ppl put some heavy duty/dh tires quite often)

 

[steve_sordy]

View attachment 123439

....

I'm not surprised he has to wear special shorts to keep his nuts out of the way of becoming crushed nuts!

 

[Rich-H]

that's true, when you move forward, there is one-way clutch and you are not rotating your motor (even when it's off).
resistance from the motor is minimal (only from the one-way clutch).
all resistance comes from weight and different tires (ppl put some heavy duty/dh tires quite often)

I'm not sure about the statement that all resistance comes from weight and different tires.

In my experience, comparing three different bikes, a regular MTB at 12kg, a SL EMTB at 18kg and a FF EMTB at 22KG. I can ride my SL EMTB easily beyond the limiter, I even did a 20 mile ride over the weekend without the motor and yes it was was obviously not as easy as the regular MTB (12kg vs 18kg, 120mm vs 160mm), but it really wasn't too bad and I certainly wouldn't worry about running out of battery on the SL.

With the FF EMTB, I am unable to ride beyond the limiter and there is no way I can ride more than a few miles without motor assistance. The FF EMTB and SL EMTB are both using the same tires.

 

[Whitey]

I had a Bosch CX and it was like hitting a brick wall at exactly (?) 15.63 MPH (German !).
I upgraded to a Full Sus (Levo C.A.) Specialized 2.2 motor. Smooth transition and no hystrionics. Could never go back to anything like the Bosch
I know tons of others love them, but not for me.

You sure it was up to date software wise?
Having risen the Performance Line motor with a 2022 Cube the power cutting was like 'hitting a wall'. Horrible!
My current Haibike with CX motor the motor is still heard till 16.9mph as it smooths off the assistance from the 15.6 making hard to notice even up hill.

 

[JP-NZ]

On my 2022 Rail alloy with Bosch CX motor mainly due to increased bike weight which is far more significant than motor drag (if any).

Same, I regularly cycle on flat sealed roads over the 20mph limiter. On trails I barely notice because I'm not often doing in excess of 20mph uphill and down trails the bike with gravity will EASILY go over 20mph so you don't even feel the limit.

 

[Mrj35]

Pedaling above the limit is pretty tough It would need to be flat I can do 30 to 35kmh. But downhill speeds I can do 50kmh coasting no problem.

 

[militantmandy]

unfortunatelly 25km/h restriction is utterly stupid for advanced rider, quite often on many trails I'm going faster, but there is not point on pedalling anymore (with DH tires etc.)... (on a normal bike i'd go faster there)

This is very, very location dependent. If you live somewhere steep and technical, the limit will be largely irrelevant on the downhills.