Interesting reading - DVSA prosecutes UK company illegally supplying unrestricted e-(motor)bikes

[da21]

I'm not sure your logic makes any sense in the real world. For starters your experience is with commuter bikes running 40t chainrings (or 48 if you've changed it as you were going to), so you're not riding the bikes in a way which is comparable to most other people on the forum .

Secondly, you're complaining that you wouldn't buy another Bosch bike - because when you ILLEGALLY tamper with the motor, you pick up error messages. You blame this on Bosch - who are only complying with the law. For general reference, most people successfully de-restrict the bosch with the volspeed and the majority of people have no problems. Whereas the badass and speedbox often give a lot more issues.

Thirdly, Shimano's motor/battery side, will generally do ANYTHING they can to avoid dealing with warranty issues. If they even think you've used a third party software just to look at your settings, they will refuse to warranty your broken motor. Anyone who has ridden a mountain bike with either an E7000,E8000 or EP8 motor will know that if you're looking mainly for power, these are generally the weakest options available. They're also normally about 30% down on range compared to Bosch for example.

oh, sorry, I had not realised that in the real world there are no people who ride 10k plus km/year on commuter bikes, I guess I'll just shut up then.

Perhaps I'll just respond that, as for riding ILLEGALLY, all I am trying to do is to squeeze a few km/h extra from my motor, hardly a crime in a world where pretty much anybody breaks the speed limit in their car somewhere sometimes. By this logic, no car should be sold that does more than 130 km/h (I know that you can legally do more on some stretched of German motorways, but so you can legally ride a de-restricted bike on private land).

Volspeed may be a good option for some, if you are comfortable opening up the motor and messing with the electronics. Me, I am sure I would break something, so I am not even trying. Badass on the contrary is really easy and works well for people like me. Since badass and bosh don't see each other eye to eye, I will not buy bosh again, that's all I was saying.

Finally, I was sharing my experience that to ride at speed with bosh you need to push harder on the pedals compared to shimano. For me, that makes shimano more comfortable in my long rides. As you say, I probably ride differently from other people, as I need constant support for long time rather short bursts of high power.

 

[Manc44]

It seems they prosecuted based on an extreme example, where no human could go those speeds on a push bike.

"up to 8000 watts and capable of speeds over 70mph"

That's 32 times the legal Wattage and over 4 times the legal top speed.

 

[Stella63]

I saw this and actually sent a question to the DVSA, asking on what basis the case was laid. Given that non legal ebikes are perfectly acceptable on private land with the land owners permission, I cant see how the supply of them is deemed 'illegal'. The only thing I can think of is that the seller was advertising them as road legal, but I didnt see that anywhere in the report I read.

I havent had a reply from the DVSA yet.

My understanding is that just by calling it an ebike, it suggests it fits the usual legal requirements and is generally misleading.

 

[Stella63]

50km/h is only 31mph.
So. Yes. I can sprint to 31mph on the flat on a normal roadbike pretty much any time I like. Including through town or on a canal path if I deem it appropriate.
Why would it have to be "sustained" if you're worrying about impact speed? A 50km/h impact is still a 50km/h impact no matter how little time a vehicle has been travelling at 50km/h previous to a 50km/h impact.

You don't seem to have a grasp of what the word "moped" actually means. Please do us all a favour and look it up so you can stop using it incorrectly.

And if anyone was worried about measuring increased kinetic energy forces don't you think there would be weight (mass) limit legislation for cyclists?

I probably don't have the correct terminology for this, but I think the big difference is "personal control" as regards safety. So if a person on a regular bike could ride at 31 mph, under their own steam, using their own legs, then that is a personal choice and no motors involved that could go out of control or break down or blow up, or become unmanoevrable.

But even with personal leg power, if riding at 31mph and knocking an old lady over I think that would still lead to prosecution for dangerous road behaviour. It's assumed we will ride safely in built up areas.

So I think the speed limit is purely because it's an electrical motor that is not allowed to go faster than 25kmh based on an algorythm worked out for safe purposesa and to categorise it as a bike. And if anyone wanted to ride faster than that they'd be expected to use a non motored bike. Which I know sounds noddy! But - the point is, an electric bike is "pedal assistance" not a powered engine. It's an assisted machine not a machine to achieve speed on its own.

I hope that makes sense but that's the way I see it and I think there needs to be a regulation or people will lost the ability to use them on roads and pavements. Ebike users vary vastly - they're not all mountain bikers - they are often older or retired people (like myself even though I still like to ride off road and not just pop to the shops).

So either it's an ebike. Or it;s not - it';s something else. Which may then need a license and a test and all kinds of other things and stops actually being a bike at all.

So it's basically a case that if anyone wants to go faster than that, they need to do it on something else! A moped or leg power. But if a cyclist using leg power knocked down and seriously injured someone, they would be personally liable. If someone on an ebike did that and the ebike was going too fast, the manufacturers could end up in a law suit. So of course they don't want to be liable.

Laws are laws - if they are to be changed it takes lobbying parliament.

 

[Stella63]

“Falcon” branded EAPCs fitted with motors powered up to 8000 watts and capable of speeds over 70mph without having type approval in place to ensure that the design and construction is suitable for riding at such speeds.”

It is 100% right to prosecute this company. What sort of lunatics would sell e-bikes that have not only not been design tested as fit for purpose but also reach speeds of 70 MPH +. Unrestricted e-bikes are replacing mopeds as the vehicle of choice for muggers throughout London. They blend in more and they make far less noise. In my local area, teenagers (not wearing helmets) are creating havoc on these kinds of e-bikes on footpaths and the tracks dog walkers use, etc. The clampdown was a long time coming because technology usually outpaces legislation and which is why current laws are being abused.

These bikes are far worse than mopeds for the simple fact they are being used off-road in areas pedestrians use and are not insured. A bike traveling at those kinds of speeds is not going to stop anytime soon in the event of an emergency. Not only is it dangerous for the kids who ride them but also for anyone else who is unfortunate enough to get in their way. They have no experience, do not wear any safety gear, are uninsured, and do not care what anyone else thinks or doesn't think.

That says it all. I'm new on here by the way, and just wanting to ride a bike, but it concerns me that ebikes have come on to become such a huge thing over the past few years and don't want it all to end with big bang and our freedoms limited because of some idiots who break the law.

 

[B1rdie]

There is so much hating involved in ebiking, even inside the “comunity”, that it blurs the vision of facts.
The bike industry could drive its lobbying and marketing powers towards approving a global speed restriction limits. It doesn’t because its not commercially interesting yet to get involved in this discussion, maybe the fear of having a brand cancelled by the “e” stigma.
Actually, after three years or more with the existing 25x32 limit, there must be relyable data that makes it possible to analyze if there was any difference on trail impact and user safety on regions with those limits.

 

[Zimmerframe]

oh, sorry, I had not realised that in the real world there are no people who ride 10k plus km/year on commuter bikes, I guess I'll just shut up then.

Perhaps I'll just respond that, as for riding ILLEGALLY, all I am trying to do is to squeeze a few km/h extra from my motor, hardly a crime in a world where pretty much anybody breaks the speed limit in their car somewhere sometimes. By this logic, no car should be sold that does more than 130 km/h (I know that you can legally do more on some stretched of German motorways, but so you can legally ride a de-restricted bike on private land).

Volspeed may be a good option for some, if you are comfortable opening up the motor and messing with the electronics. Me, I am sure I would break something, so I am not even trying. Badass on the contrary is really easy and works well for people like me. Since badass and bosh don't see each other eye to eye, I will not buy bosh again, that's all I was saying.

Finally, I was sharing my experience that to ride at speed with bosh you need to push harder on the pedals compared to shimano. For me, that makes shimano more comfortable in my long rides. As you say, I probably ride differently from other people, as I need constant support for long time rather short bursts of high power.

My apologies, my post was possibly not written in the best way. I was not intending to slur your experience, just point out that your experience is different to many.

There are plenty on here who ride similar or more on EMTB's and I suspect at faster speeds. Either just descending, or from pedalling harder.

There is a whole section on the forum for discussing de-restricting. It's banned everywhere else, so if you just want to argue about the semantics of it, take it there or they'll just close and delete this thread.

Badass on the contrary is really easy and works well for people like me.

But that's the point - it doesn't work for you - that's what your problem is. You may as well move the sensor along your chainstay and stick a magnet on your crank arm to achieve the same thing for £1.

With a volspeed, you're not opening the motor up, you're only taking the none driveside cover off - many people do this regularly anyway as part of their cleaning procedure when they ride EMTB. It's like opening your bonnet on your car (if it was screwed down )

Your explanation of having to push more on the pedals doesn't make sense unless you explain what mode you're in Eco/tour/emtb/turbo eco/trail/boost ? With the Shimano your settings are adjustable, I we don't know how they're set on your bike. Yes, at a low cadence the Shimano will sometimes deliver more assistance - but equally, it's very inefficient riding at that low a cadence on any of the motors.

Only trying to help. If you prefer the Shimano and it works for you Great. But for most people, if they want a reliable solution which will last them for a long time, provide good support, be efficient, not have battery and warranty issues, still get warranty if they've used a volspeed (properly) then the Bosch is generally a better option.

 

[da21]

Your explanation of having to push more on the pedals doesn't make sense unless you explain what mode you're in Eco/tour/emtb/turbo eco/trail/boost ? With the Shimano your settings are adjustable, I we don't know how they're set on your bike. Yes, at a low cadence the Shimano will sometimes deliver more assistance - but equally, it's very inefficient riding at that low a cadence on any of the motors.

well, clearly I meant on the highest possible assistance on both, i.e. "turbo" on bosh and "high" on shimano. If I have to ride for 50km continuously, and I am not looking for a training session but only a leisure ride or a long commute and just want the minimum possible effort at maximum possible speed, then what I am saying is that shimano delivers a better experience for me.

 

[Zimmerframe]

well, clearly I meant on the highest possible assistance on both, i.e. "turbo" on bosh and "high" on shimano. If I have to ride for 50km continuously, and I am not looking for a training session but only a leisure ride or a long commute and just want the minimum possible effort at maximum possible speed, then what I am saying is that shimano delivers a better experience for me.

As I say, it's great you find the Shimano works for you. But your experience on the Bosch contradicts most other people's experiences which seems unusual and would suggest there's something else wrong ? An example from me, mainly off road except where necessary, I just could not do a ride like this on a Shimano powered bike. I've tried. I couldn't do it with regard to battery life and I couldn't do it with regard to physical support for the length of time (though a lot of the ride is riding above the assistance limit).

You may mean that you want to be riding at 50kph ? constantly ?? In which case you should just buy a speed pedalec which is designed to go at a speed more like that continually.

 

[da21]

As I say, it's great you find the Shimano works for you. But your experience on the Bosch contradicts most other people's experiences which seems unusual and would suggest there's something else wrong ? An example from me, mainly off road except where necessary, I just could not do a ride like this on a Shimano powered bike. I've tried. I couldn't do it with regard to battery life and I couldn't do it with regard to physical support for the length of time (though a lot of the ride is riding above the assistance limit).

View attachment 85785

You may mean that you want to be riding at 50kph ? constantly ?? In which case you should just buy a speed pedalec which is designed to go at a speed more like that continually.

I usually cruise at 35-36 with my shimano, with bosh I am now limited to 32, but even riding at 30 requires more effort than at 35 with shimano. You can clearly feel that it is a software issue, as you get a nice power burst every time after you have stopped pedalling for a while, but then the assistance levels off, unless you start pushing harder on the pedals. I would probably not notice it that much if I had only that bike, but it is the comparison with the shimano one that makes me realise this issue with bosh. And no, I can’t buy a speed pedelec because it is ILLEGAL, isn’t it? Or I would have to use crash helmet, insurance and the rest of it, negating all the benefits of riding a bike. If I had to do that then why stopping at a speed pedelec and not getting a much more powerful toy?

 

[Zimmerframe]

I usually cruise at 35-36 with my shimano, with bosh I am now limited to 32, but even riding at 30 requires more effort than at 35 with shimano. You can clearly feel that it is a software issue,

Well you would. Your shimano is obviously set a lot higher than 35-36 (most people here will be set at 32 by using the american settings), the shimano also more clearly "cuts" at the limit. So you have full power, then "the wall" with no assistance. The Bosch (your software error) is designed to bleed off the assistance as you get to the limit so you don't hit "the wall" when the assistance stops and it's far easier to continue to pedal above the limit because your body is adjusting to it in the seconds before hand. It also means you, as a person, adjust and add slightly more power yourself at that point - so "riding the wave" the point near and above the cut off, you can achieve high (relative) speeds, whilst still achieving good range. The motor is not designed just for one person to commute 50km's with no regard for how most other people will use the motor.

 

[da21]

Well you would. Your shimano is obviously set a lot higher than 35-36 (most people here will be set at 32 by using the american settings), the shimano also more clearly "cuts" at the limit. So you have full power, then "the wall" with no assistance. The Bosch (your software error) is designed to bleed off the assistance as you get to the limit so you don't hit "the wall" when the assistance stops and it's far easier to continue to pedal above the limit because your body is adjusting to it in the seconds before hand. It also means you, as a person, adjust and add slightly more power yourself at that point - so "riding the wave" the point near and above the cut off, you can achieve high (relative) speeds, whilst still achieving good range. The motor is not designed just for one person to commute 50km's with no regard for how most other people will use the motor.

yes, I know all that. but before I had to compromise my badass to a limit of 32 (to avoid the infamous error 504) I had it set at 50, and so I could cruise to 35-36 also with bosh, and I was very far from the limit. What I am saying is that 35 on bosh required more effort than 35 on shimano.
What I think the software is doing is limiting the power, which in the initial burst is probably a lot more that 250W. Shimano does not do that, or if it does you do not feel it. It could also be the pressure sensor that is set differently, and it is more generous on shimano. This is because eventually you do get the power out of bosh, but you need to push on the pedals harder.

bosh is definitely a more powerful motor, but the software smothers it. they could just leave alone the motor, and the world would be a better place...

 

[Zimmerframe]

yes, I know all that. but before I had to compromise my badass to a limit of 32 (to avoid the infamous error 504) I had it set at 50, and so I could cruise to 35-36 also with bosh, and I was very far from the limit. What I am saying is that 35 on bosh required more effort than 35 on shimano.
What I think the software is doing is limiting the power, which in the initial burst is probably a lot more that 250W. Shimano does not do that, or if it does you do not feel it. It could also be the pressure sensor that is set differently, and it is more generous on shimano. This is because eventually you do get the power out of bosh, but you need to push on the pedals harder.

bosh is definitely a more powerful motor, but the software smothers it. they could just leave alone the motor, and the world would be a better place...

It sounds like for your requirements, you would be better with a bike with a throttle ? Or a Brose with Turbo set to 100%, acceleration response set to 100%, Shuttle mode at 100%.

 

[Slapbassmunky]

It sounds like for your requirements, you would be better with a bike with a throttle ? Or a Brose with Turbo set to 100%, acceleration response set to 100%, Shuttle mode at 100%.

You are being very patient. I gave up with trying to explain many posts ago.

 

[Mikerb]

A lot of focus here on max assisted speed when that aspect of an EPAC/pedelec is actually a consequence rather than the key point. ( and to be clear, on this forum we are concerned with pedelecs not Speed pedelecs.
When the regulations were made there were 2 main issues.
Firstly, to enable a motor assisted vehicle that did not require Type Approval. The Type Approval process is hugely expensive for any manufacturer and would likely have made the development of EPACS uneconomic.
Secondly a need to create a class of vehicle that could be manufactured and sold as a bicycle, meaning there would be no requirement for all the legal requirements of the lowest pre existing class of motorised vehicle, the moped (tax, insurance, testing, licence etc). The maximum assisted speed, and regulation that assistance must only be given when pedalling, was decided upon for 2 reasons. The first, it was decided standard bicycle tyres,brakes, frames etc would be safe at that maximum assisted speed, negating the need for Type Approval, and second there would be clear water between the legal assisted speed of an EPAC and a moped.

Now it could of course be argued that there was additional headroom between the max assisted speed of 25kph/32kph (region dependant) and the max speed of a moped, and with the increasing use of E bikes in general maybe that will be reconsidered.

Keep in mind a moped requires Type Approval, road legal tyres, tested brakes, front and rear lights and brake lights, horn.

Maybe also worth pointing out that this is the EMTB forum not a generic Ebike forum, so most on here are concerned with electric motor assisted mountain bikes which are very different to the many other classes of Ebike and designed specifically for riding off road.....mountain biking. Nothing to stop anyone using a mountain bike for other purposes but they are unlikely to be optimum outside their speciality use.

 

[da21]

You are being very patient. I gave up with trying to explain many posts ago.

Yes, some people just don’t get it, do they?

 

[Slapbassmunky]

Yes, some people just don’t get it, do they?

This is going so far off topic its crazy. But I'll try and clarify, to you, what you're doing with your motors.

You're taking both of them a long way out of their design perameters. Where heat becomes a major concern for both the motor itself and the battery pack. You're also saying that one is inferior to the other because it's more powerful, you've forgotten the tuning box and the way they manipulate the signals to achieve what they do. Both tuning boxes have to work within some sort of envelope when there at the extremes. It's not my area of expertise (more of a hardware guy) but I'd imagine it's something to do with this. It is well known that if you ride for a long time at high speed on a cracked Bosch system you can trigger errors.

In essence, you're saying one car is crap because you can't wind the boost up to 3 bar without the ECU backing it off again before the engine goes bang.

I know all things are subjective, and I have no raw data to back it up, but... From my experience Bosch systems feel a bit more synthetic in higher levels, this I can live with for the far superior range and build quality. I.E. I've never seen a snapped off power connector or snapped BB axle on a Bosch system.

Peace out. That's my take on it.

 

[da21]

This is going so far off topic its crazy. But I'll try and clarify, to you, what you're doing with your motors.

thank you for clarifying, now I definitely know better what I am doing with my motor.

let me rephrase the whole topic and then I'll stop, because quite frankly is becoming an exercise of a mute speaking to a deaf.

remove the de-restricting devices, so let's restore the bike to their original settings, and ride them at 20 km/h, or 15 km/h, or any speed for
that matter. Bosh requires more effort than shimano. You can tell me that I am imagining all, perhaps I am, but that is my experience.

 

[Zimmerframe]

so let's restore the bike to their original settings, and ride them at 20 km/h, or 15 km/h, or any speed for
that matter. Bosh requires more effort than shimano. You can tell me that I am imagining all, perhaps I am, but that is my experience.

It's just not something you can state like that. There are so many factors which can influence what you're suggesting. Cadence will have a huge impact. The Shimano will give more support at lower cadences, but on an EMTB, if you want range and to be covering the ground efficiently and effectively, you won't generally be riding at a low cadence, unless you're over 90 and you've already seen three of your mistresses in the morning.

Tyres will be another factor. Tyre choice and rolling resistance will make a MASSIVE difference. Again though, most people on here will be running tractor tyres, where as you most probably have something which resembles a shopping trolley tyre. But do you have the same tyres on both bikes ? Bike weight will be another factor. Then, do you have the same cassette and chainring on both bikes ?

Ultimately, no one really cares because you're talking about/complaining about your experiences of a commuter bike on a Mountain bike Forum. As Mike says, the requirements are completely different. You're also pushing de-restriction when I've told you it's only allowed in the de-restriction section and am amazed you haven't just been banned for your consistency. You're also complaining that everyone is deaf because they don't agree with you, when you're talking with people who have considerably more experience than you who are actually only trying to help and explain why what you "feel" is not the whole story. People are also taking time out to give you advice so you make a better choice for yourself. If you don't care and you feel your experience is different and more valuable than everyone elses, that's fine. We don't care, just stop telling us the same thing when it's completely irrelevant.

Even a restricted Bosch with Magic Mary's can be pedalled at 50kph (on the road) if you put the effort in. You want to put no effort in for your transport requirements. So buy a bike with a throttle.

 

[Rusty]

Even a restricted Bosch with Magic Mary's can be pedalled at 50kph (on the road) if you put the effort in. You want to put no effort in for your transport requirements. So buy a bike with a throttle.

Do I raise, or just call you?

 

[da21]

It's just not something you can state like that. There are so many factors which can influence what you're suggesting. Cadence will have a huge impact. The Shimano will give more support at lower cadences, but on an EMTB, if you want range and to be covering the ground efficiently and effectively, you won't generally be riding at a low cadence, unless you're over 90 and you've already seen three of your mistresses in the morning.

Tyres will be another factor. Tyre choice and rolling resistance will make a MASSIVE difference. Again though, most people on here will be running tractor tyres, where as you most probably have something which resembles a shopping trolley tyre. But do you have the same tyres on both bikes ? Bike weight will be another factor. Then, do you have the same cassette and chainring on both bikes ?

Ultimately, no one really cares because you're talking about/complaining about your experiences of a commuter bike on a Mountain bike Forum. As Mike says, the requirements are completely different. You're also pushing de-restriction when I've told you it's only allowed in the de-restriction section and am amazed you haven't just been banned for your consistency. You're also complaining that everyone is deaf because they don't agree with you, when you're talking with people who have considerably more experience than you who are actually only trying to help and explain why what you "feel" is not the whole story. People are also taking time out to give you advice so you make a better choice for yourself. If you don't care and you feel your experience is different and more valuable than everyone elses, that's fine. We don't care, just stop telling us the same thing when it's completely irrelevant.

Even a restricted Bosch with Magic Mary's can be pedalled at 50kph (on the road) if you put the effort in. You want to put no effort in for your transport requirements. So buy a bike with a throttle.

View attachment 85818

well, thanks for telling me that your experience is more valuable than mine, now I will certainly take on board what you are saying. perhaps I have hit a couple of users

It's just not something you can state like that. There are so many factors which can influence what you're suggesting. Cadence will have a huge impact. The Shimano will give more support at lower cadences, but on an EMTB, if you want range and to be covering the ground efficiently and effectively, you won't generally be riding at a low cadence, unless you're over 90 and you've already seen three of your mistresses in the morning.

Tyres will be another factor. Tyre choice and rolling resistance will make a MASSIVE difference. Again though, most people on here will be running tractor tyres, where as you most probably have something which resembles a shopping trolley tyre. But do you have the same tyres on both bikes ? Bike weight will be another factor. Then, do you have the same cassette and chainring on both bikes ?

Ultimately, no one really cares because you're talking about/complaining about your experiences of a commuter bike on a Mountain bike Forum. As Mike says, the requirements are completely different. You're also pushing de-restriction when I've told you it's only allowed in the de-restriction section and am amazed you haven't just been banned for your consistency. You're also complaining that everyone is deaf because they don't agree with you, when you're talking with people who have considerably more experience than you who are actually only trying to help and explain why what you "feel" is not the whole story. People are also taking time out to give you advice so you make a better choice for yourself. If you don't care and you feel your experience is different and more valuable than everyone elses, that's fine. We don't care, just stop telling us the same thing when it's completely irrelevant.

Even a restricted Bosch with Magic Mary's can be pedalled at 50kph (on the road) if you put the effort in. You want to put no effort in for your transport requirements. So buy a bike with a throttle.

View attachment 85818

thanks for explaining that you are more experienced than me, again, I will certainly take on board your thoughts now.

 

[Zimmerframe]

well, thanks for telling me that your experience is more valuable than mine, now I will certainly take on board what you are saying. perhaps I have hit a couple of users

thanks for explaining that you are more experienced than me, again, I will certainly take on board your thoughts now.

Did I say me ? I said people and other users. If I'm not mistaken, you're the one who called everyone here deaf.

 

[da21]

Did I say me ? I said people and other users. If I'm not mistaken, you're the one who called everyone here deaf.

not everyone, just those who keep "explaining" things to me. again, my apologies, I did not realises you know it all.

 

[Zimmerframe]

Do I raise, or just call you?

That is a great picture !!

I think this is the best I can manage .. so you still have me beaten

 

[Zimmerframe]

not everyone, just those who keep "explaining" things to me. again, my apologies, I did not realises you know it all.

Ah .. So your problem is only with people who explain things to you.

Sorry, please, get back on your soap box and we will know to leave you to your own miss conceptions.

 

[ilostmypassword]

 

[Moderator]

It seems somewhat ironic that a thread based on the prosecution of a company for supplying de-restricted bikes becomes hijacked by someone who feels the need to explain that they need a de-restricted bike and to complain that one de-restricts better than another in their opinion.

da21 has been banned from the thread.

Members are reminded that de-restriction should only be discussed in the de-restriction section where the relevant advice and warnings are in place.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

 

[Mteam]

Do I raise, or just call you?


View attachment 85819

Theres no way you did that speed with handlebars bars that narrow - everyone knows that you need 800mm wide bars to hit 132kph

 

[Redlemon]

That thing must be heavy as hell and can go up to 112 km/h (70mph), yet they spec some regular MTB components.

MTB stuff can be pretty solid, but no there's no way this can be safe on the long term.