Instant engagement hubs on the Rise?

[Subby]

There are two things I notice on my new Orbea Rise M10. The "glue effect" when you go over the 25 km/h limit (Europe), which I'm really not sure if it's motor drag or just the expected feeling you get after the support stops (this is my first E-MTB), and at about that speed as well, I can feel an engagement gap, which creates an audible noise every time my input overcomes it (of course that doesn't feel nice either). Is this a normal thing on E-MTBs and if yes, can it be improved with a rear hub which has faster engagement, like the Hydra from i9?

PS: My new Rise:

 

[Gary]

it's not motor drag you're feeling when pedalling over the assistance threshold. it's just normal resistance (wind/tyres/terrain/gradient) and all of a sudden no longer having 250w helping you.

The motor basically has a freewheel in the crank/chainring interface so you now have engagement of the hub and chainring so that's why your Emtb feels as if it has a lower engagement hub. And Yes. a faster engagement rear hub will help.

 

[Subby]

Thanks for the fast reply. Has anyone by chance did such a hub upgrade on his Rise and can post his experience on how much it made a difference?

 

[scarl]

I turn my M-team in a mullet recently. The Hydro on my 27.5 rear wheel is awesome. Very noticeable from my first ride. Climbing up super tech stuff - the Hydro hub totally out-performs the vault in terms of engagement. No wasted energy .Expensive but worth it.

 

[Subby]

Thanks. That's what I hoped to hear (my wallet probably not, but good things have their costs).

 

[iJak]

Running Onyx Vesper on mine which is instant engagement. Pairs well with the the EP8's re-engagement of the crank and IMO reduces the sound as there's a "soft squishy - but not really noticeable" instant engagement.

 

[steve_sordy]

With any sort of usual rear wheel hub that has teeth and pawls, there will always be a slight lag, ie the engagement will not be instant. It might be a small lag, but you will be able to measure it at the wheel quite easily. The more teeth and the more pawls, the less the lag.
As far as I am aware the only freewheel drive that gives anything even close to instant engagement is a sprag clutch or a trapped roller design. That is where the sprags (or the trapped rollers) are in constant but very light load contact with the race fastened to the shaft. As soon as the shaft moves in the opposite direction (relative to the sprags) the drive is taken up. Any engagement lag is due to flex in the components, but you would need sensitive equipment to measure it.

I believe that you can find sprag clutches inside some motors, but I don't know which ones.

Google Image Result for https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Fsp3fm4KHs0/mqdefault.jpg

 

[Subby]

Running Onyx Vesper ... pairs well with the the EP8

Good to know. I'm really torn between the loud Hydra and something silent like the Vesper. I think both can have advantages. Rob called this color scheme of my Rise stealthy, so maybe I should go for the silent one. ;-)

 

[BiGJZ74]

Good to know. I'm really torn between the loud Hydra and something silent like the Vesper. I think both can have advantages. Rob called this color scheme of my Rise stealthy, so maybe I should go for the silent one. ;-)

I like they Hydra I just put on my Rise.....adds a second layer of approaching sound to go along with my timber bell.

 

[Jukka4130]

Having a hub with as high POE (point of engagement) as possible can be considered beneficial in nearly every case. The motor has a freewheel with a certain POE, and the hub has another one. When you multiply two low POE numbers, you will encounter situations when those add up to very noticeable slack before engagement happens.

This wheelset with Onyx Racing Classic hubs was built for the Pole Voima e-bike. Onyx hubs use a patented sprag clutch mechanism that provides instant engagement, is fully silent, and arguably the solution with the lowest drag in the market. A nice bonus is that the mechanism is also very durable and has virtually no parts that are subjected to wear or fatigue.

Onyx Classic Hubs for an E-MTB – Onyxhubseurope.com goes electric!

A video on the Onyx Racing Products YouTube channel does a good job of explaining the mechanism if one is not familiar with it.

YouTube.com/OnyxRP – How It Works: Onyx Racing Products Rear Hub

 

[E&NonEinCO]

I ride a lot of slow speed rocky technical terrain where I have to stop and start pedaling as well as backpedal. Quick engagement is key. I use a DT Swiss 240 Ratchet EXP rear hub with 36 teeth which works well. Different from the typical pawl and ratchet system.

 

[mike_kelly]

I just wanted to add to this tread that I have used i9 hubs in the past and loved the fast engagement. I did not want to add that much to the cost of my Rise so I used Spank Hex lock hubs with 105 points of engagement. I am quite satisfied.

 

[Jukka4130]

Interested to hear how the Spank hubs cope in the long run. The lower than usual max. torque on the EP8 motor found on the rise does place less stress on the drivetrain, though.

 

[mike_kelly]

I'll find out.
Spank makes this ebike specific hub, which is the one I am using.

 

[BobR]

Thanks for the fast reply. Has anyone by chance did such a hub upgrade on his Rise and can post his experience on how much it made a difference?

I9’s are great! Also better at slow tech

 

[BiGJZ74]

On my Rail I've stripped a 54t Ratchet on a DT Swiss 350 hub and an I9 torch hub. I9 warranty was awesome. It was out of warranty on my first set of SC Reserves from 2018. I9 replaced the rear hub rebuilt the wheel with a Hydra for $100 and haven't had an issue since. About 1000 miles on the Hydra. I had about 3500 on the i9 Torch hub before it went. The 54T ratchet probably had a bit too much grease but now I run a 24t Ratchet on the DT350 which is what they recommend for emtb. I prefer High POE but on Bosch bikes, the extended boost feature makes up for the lower engagement. The Rise H gets the Hydra rear hub

 

[PerseverantOne]

I do know that they say not to use the VESPER hubs on EMTBs. I also read that the Hydra will outlast the Onyx on high-powered EMTB but don't know anyone who even runs the Onyx on Emtb. Almost always the Hydra, though I read that some people will put an Onyx classic hub on their EU-powered high-end 250-watt engine or smaller EMTBS. I run a 1000-watt M600, so I am kind of having trouble buying my new wheelset, because I don't really know which of the two Hubs can handle the power. Well, I know HYDRA can but the silence of the Onyx is hard to deny. Has anyone ever tried both? If so opinions?

 

[Jukka4130]

Curious to hear what the reasoning was for why the Hydra hub would outlast Onyx Classic hub in any scenario?
The Onyx Classic hub is rated for ebikes with mid-motors up to 1500W of power output. With most of the current offerings, there are plenty of reserves left.

Besides the silence, low rolling resistance, and robust freewheel mechanism, the sprag clutch has the added benefit that it has virtually no parts that are subjected to wear.

And yes, it's true that the Vesper hubs aren't approved by the manufacturer for ebike use.

 

[iJak]

I've had both - Vesper Nobl 37 and now Hydra Nobl 35 on my Orbea h30.

Vesper:
Like any Vesper, there's going to be a bit spongy-ness when stepping on the cranks, but honestly it's not noticeable if you actually ride the bike instead of holding rear brake and cranking. Based on my understanding, there's a couple of factors to this, which is probably also why they aren't ebike rated. None the less it was fine for my riding with unlocked RS motor (85nm + 500w)

1) Lighter hub than Classic which means less material on the shell and less tolerant to higher torque.
2) 1.5 rows of sprag vs 2 on classic. Also I think the cage holding the sprags on the Vesper is weaker than Classic probably due to different material.

Also one of the annoying things about Onyx hubs is the additional step + part for holding the hub together which is the Preload Adjust. You need two 20mm cone wrenches + removal of brake rotors to get the vesper hub setup properly. For the most part it is set and forget, but I would still check it once a year or when you do maintenance on your bike. Also the preload affects the freewheeling / hub rolling resistance which needs to be dialed in.

i9 Hydra
Pretty much instant engagement. I packed the hub with grease and now it's very close to being silent - I would have to pay attention to the hub sound and dial out all other sounds to really hear it (tires, cables, ep8 rattle) etc.
Overall I prefer the i9 over Vesper

1) lighter than Vesper + also assortment of colors (not a point that really matters too much)
2) rated for ebikes
3) instant engagement and fairly resistance free
4) silent enough if need be
5) no preload adjustment required, just works with axle compression
6) endcaps, parts and hub maintenance is pretty equal with the vesper (aside from preload adjustment)

 

[Bigtuna00]

I ran a Vesper on a Turbo Levo for ~500 miles without any drive issues. I had problems with the bearings but that ended up being my fault due to using the "gen 1" fixed endcap on a "gen 2" hub (Light Bicycle told me it was ok but they were wrong).

There are different versions of the preload endcap on the gen 2 Vesper. I had at least two different ones. There's some photos of both here:

https://www.mtbr.com/threads/any-onyx-vesper-users-yet-reviews.1104983/page-18#post-15199938

You don't need cone wrenches for the one that uses a pinch design with a grub screw. You may be able to get this one from Onyx. But you may have frame clearance issues with this one, it's not within spec (hence the newer design). More on this later...

The sad part is the adjustable endcaps shouldn't be necessary. Onyx doesn't user angular contact bearings (a la Chris King). The adjustable endcap is a bandaid for either a poor design or poor QC/tolerance problems.

Couple this with the out-of-spec first gen adjustable endcap and Onyx really looks like an amateurish company on the engineering side

 

[Jukka4130]

The sad part is the adjustable endcaps shouldn't be necessary. Onyx doesn't user angular contact bearings (a la Chris King). The adjustable endcap is a bandaid for either a poor design or poor QC/tolerance problems.

Plenty of hub models employ bearing preload adjustment – like Chris King – which can be considered only a beneficial feature when executed well and used properly.

 

[Bigtuna00]

Plenty of hub models employ bearing preload adjustment – like Chris King – which can be considered only a beneficial feature when executed well and used properly.

Chris King hubs require preload adjusters because they use angular contact bearings. They wouldn't work without them.

Radial contact bearings only need preload adjusters to make up for inadequate tolerances. Of course if you have a hub with inadequate tolerances you need the adjuster, so you can market it as a benefit. But in a properly manufactured hub (see DT Swiss for example) they're not necessary. I get what you're saying, it can be beneficial to have a preload adjustment when you have a hub that needs it, I'm just trying to say it shouldn't be needed in the first place, especially on a high end hub like Onyx.

 

[Jukka4130]

Thanks for elaborating, good points.

The current axle assemblies found in Vesper and Onyx hubs seem to do their job more than adequately and I don't see them lacking in any department. DT Swiss hubs are certainly nice and are a setup-and-forget-it type of deal. However, I don't see it as a deal breaker to have to adjust bearing preload 1-2 times a season.

 

[Borbea]

There are two things I notice on my new Orbea Rise M10. The "glue effect" when you go over the 25 km/h limit (Europe), which I'm really not sure if it's motor drag or just the expected feeling you get after the support stops (this is my first E-MTB), and at about that speed as well, I can feel an engagement gap, which creates an audible noise every time my input overcomes it (of course that doesn't feel nice either). Is this a normal thing on E-MTBs and if yes, can it be improved with a rear hub which has faster engagement, like the Hydra from i9?

PS: My new Rise:

View attachment 88693

On the M10 -2022 you have the race face turbine with Vault hubs and 120 times engagement. So hub wise it doesn’t get much better than that.