I rode an EMTB, and then something happened WHICH SURPRISED EVERYBODY

[Ordinary Human Male]

Hello, hope you enjoyed my clickbait title.

I have spent several nights losing sleep over whether to shell out an obscene amount of money on an electric toy. I've two potential bikes in my sights:
1. The Marin E2 - 'primo option', $9,000; and
2. The Poly Mt Bromo N7 - budget option $5,800 (plus $100 to $1000 of necessary upgrades).
(I should add that both bikes are in AUD, sold direct to consumer here)

My reason for looking into an EMTB because I like riding steep downhill trails. Riding to the top of these fatigues me so much that I'm too tired to try the bigger drops and technical sections by the time I get to them. I also don't feel confident hitting big stuff until I've ridden the trail at least once to remember where everything is - by then I'm often too tired to get back up the trail!

I'm basically looking for a self-shuttling bike to ride downhill on and to get more value for the limited time that I have to shred.

The Marin E2 looks like a complete package which is ready to ride. The Bromo on the other hand would warrant some SLX/XT brake levers and possibly a budget-friendly coil. I have a set of 170mm Fox 38 Performance forks on my enduro bike which I could put on if I have issues with the Durolux, though I've read that the Durolux is a solid fork.

I'm not sure what I'll lose riding an EP7000 with a 504WH battery compared to a EP8 with 625WH. I am quite fit and would only be using the motor to help me get to the top of long descents more quickly and more often. I don't plan on doing general trail or XC riding on an EMTB. I'm a little unsure about the reliability of these motors. I would hope that if buying a $9,000 bike, the motor would last for 5 years if properly maintained. It does scare me how much can go wrong on a $9,000 bike, particularly given how much it will be ridden down the steepest local terrain I can find.

I'm not fooling myself into thinking I'm a great rider, but it would be nice to develop my skills faster, before I'm 40. I have some short clips on Youtube to show some of the trails that I ride: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCViDQVCuNTN2qNXDrgtt47w




(hopefully Christian does not find this thread)

 

[Gary]

like riding steep downhill trails. Riding to the top of these fatigues me so much that I'm too tired to try the bigger drops and technical sections by the time I get to them

I am quite fit

?

I'm basically looking for a self-shuttling bike to ride downhill on and to get more value for the limited time that I have to shred.

And that's a perfectly good reason to buy one.

Even with 625wh of battery and only using Eco climbing range is actually far less on an EMTB than it is for a genuinely fit rider on a normal bike. But you can cover more ascent in a lot less time with the motor.

All motors are warrantied for 2 years. But if reliability is a worry to you definitely don't buy a bike with an E7000 motor

 

[Zimmerframe]

But if reliability is a worry to you definitely don't buy a bike with an E7000 motor

I'm glad you said that ..I always feel like I'm picking on it ..

Looking at @Ordinary Human Male's video's you'll trash an E7000 in no time. Probably fine if you want to plod.

 

[Gary]

Only looked at 2 of those videos and they looked tame trails ridden by someone with zero landing finesse..
But yeah. Those motors don't hold up too WELL for that IME

 

[Zimmerframe]

Only looked at 2 of those videos and they looked tame trails ridden by someone with zero landing finesse..
But yeah. Those motors don't hold up too WELL for that IME

A lack of landing finesse is a style ! That's what I tell myself anyway ..

I like the trials one..

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Only looked at 2 of those videos and they looked tame trails ridden by someone with zero landing finesse..

did someone mention me?

 

[Ordinary Human Male]

Thanks for helpful feedback.

Haha, yes little finesse and I'm still learning - particularly leaving and hitting the ground. Very relevant as I am still hard on gear (though getting better) and I want it to last!

Even with 625wh of battery and only using Eco climbing range is actually far less on an EMTB than it is for a genuinely fit rider on a normal bike. But you can cover more ascent in a lot less time with the motor.

Yep, I was worried about this. Our closest actual mountains are at least 2 hours' drive away, so short rides can feel like a waste of time. An option would be getting a model with a 504WH battery and buying a second battery for $1,000 or so. Canyon's Torque had a 'dual battery' offering in 2021 (now sold out), but not sure if this will be on offer for 2022.

Is it unreasonable to expect 1,000m elevation and 35km up fire roads with either a 504WH or 625WH battery? If I could approach that kind of range on a 504WH I think I'd be pretty happy and would could consider leaving a spare battery in my car.

All motors are warrantied for 2 years. But if reliability is a worry to you definitely don't buy a bike with an E7000 motor

That's really disappointing. Seems arguable that breaking an E7000 under warranty would at least get you an additional two years of warranty. The EP8 on the other hand has been out for less than 12 months, so it's untested by comparison. There is a company that will sell an EP8 motor kit for $2,800, if upgrading from an E7000 out of warranty, but that's not small change.

It's starting to look like I should just ride more uplift days.

 

[Gary]

Is it unreasonable to expect 1,000m elevation and 35km up fire roads with either a 504WH

Not unreasonable at all evnen just using 504wh battery. That's a fairly mellow climbing gradient and fireroad surfaces are rarely battery sapping. (compared with steep wet natural singletrack)
all I meant was that plenty actually fit guys ride twice that on normal bikes

 

[Gary]

It's starting to look like I should just ride more uplift days.

Only you know the answer to that.
Emtb will make non lift assisted trails easier to get to. and possibly riding from the door more appealing (depending what is nearby)

They're not massively unreliable, They're just not massively durable (yet) And by that I mean ALL Emtb motors

 

[flash]

Thanks for helpful feedback.

Haha, yes little finesse and I'm still learning - particularly leaving and hitting the ground. Very relevant as I am still hard on gear (though getting better) and I want it to last!


Yep, I was worried about this. Our closest actual mountains are at least 2 hours' drive away, so short rides can feel like a waste of time. An option would be getting a model with a 504WH battery and buying a second battery for $1,000 or so. Canyon's Torque had a 'dual battery' offering in 2021 (now sold out), but not sure if this will be on offer for 2022.

Is it unreasonable to expect 1,000m elevation and 35km up fire roads with either a 504WH or 625WH battery? If I could approach that kind of range on a 504WH I think I'd be pretty happy and would could consider leaving a spare battery in my car.




That's really disappointing. Seems arguable that breaking an E7000 under warranty would at least get you an additional two years of warranty. The EP8 on the other hand has been out for less than 12 months, so it's untested by comparison. There is a company that will sell an EP8 motor kit for $2,800, if upgrading from an E7000 out of warranty, but that's not small change.

It's starting to look like I should just ride more uplift days.

It's going to depend on your weight and how much you want to put in. My fitness is OK (not currently great as I had 3 months of no exercise by orders earlier this year) and I'm heavy (95kg on the bike). I get around 850-900m of fire road climbing and 30-35kms overall when I self shuttle with my EP8 motor and 630wh battery and about 500m/20kms on a 504/e8000. Someone lighter and fitter will get 1000m of fire roads pretty easily with 630wH.

Also keep in mind places like Maydena and Thredbo allow eBikes but don't allow self shuttling (on any bike), so in some places you're still up for a lift ticket. If you do get an eBike then the Bay of Fires trail is an absolute must. Especially since you guys are currently the only ones allowed into Tassie!

My e8000 is 2.5 years and going strong. Haven't heard as many horror stories in Oz. Mind you it's a lot drier here so water and mud ingress generally is a risk when washing, not riding.

Gordon

 

[Ordinary Human Male]

Not unreasonable at all evnen just using 504wh battery. That's a fairly mellow climbing gradient and fireroad surfaces are rarely battery sapping. (compared with steep wet natural singletrack)
all I meant was that plenty actually fit guys ride twice that on normal bikes

I didn't mean 35km on fireroads, but your point is taken. Most people push up at least parts of those fireroads, but they don't need to if they have a modern cassette range.

It's going to depend on your weight and how much you want to put in. My fitness is OK (not currently great as I had 3 months of no exercise by orders earlier this year) and I'm heavy (95kg on the bike). I get around 850-900m of fire road climbing and 30-35kms overall when I self shuttle with my EP8 motor and 630wh battery and about 500m/20kms on a 504/e8000. Someone lighter and fitter will get 1000m of fire roads pretty easily with 630wH.

Also keep in mind places like Maydena and Thredbo allow eBikes but don't allow self shuttling (on any bike), so in some places you're still up for a lift ticket. If you do get an eBike then the Bay of Fires trail is an absolute must. Especially since you guys are currently the only ones allowed into Tassie!

My e8000 is 2.5 years and going strong. Haven't heard as many horror stories in Oz. Mind you it's a lot drier here so water and mud ingress generally is a risk when washing, not riding.

Gordon

Thanks Gordon, nice to meet you!

That information is on point.

Went to Maydena and it didn't make any sense to ride an EMTB there anyway. Given how steep and rutted it was I can't imagine it would have been easy for the rider or gentle on the components. Oddly, the double blacks were smoother than the singles and blues because they weren't as rutted out.

Derby itself was a good example of when I wanted an EMTB. The trails weren't that steep, though getting to the best trails at the top took a fair of energy, which resulted in some missed opportunities.

Was the only one in our group doing Bay of Fires on an analogue, which brings me back to the point of this thread - it was doable, but I didn't feel like riding back and try some of the features or ride the poppy lines. It was pretty much just a grind for me while everyone else had a roller-coaster grin plastered to their face.

 

[Gary]

I didn't mean 35km on fireroads,

Yeah. I realised that.
but 1000m in 35km tells me the climbing probably isn't all that steep.
around here in good conditions I get around 4000ft of climbing (1200m) out of a full 504wh battery using eco and trail but that can often be over just 11-15 miles (18-24km). Yeah a lot steeper.
But introduce any soft condition climbing terrain or climb faster (especially in Boost) and that range diminshes quite drastically.
I generally don't ride up anything that cant be climbed on a normal bike (some are pretty difficult though) so I don't run low gearing at all 36T chainring, 11-36t cassette) - and run 34tx10-42 on my normal mtb

 

[Dirtnvert]

Cant say this often but i agree with everything in this thread , apart from the vids mentioned. Havent seen them. No doubt having fun though.
Id definitely get the ep8. Wouldnt worry too much about parts. 4 piston deore or slx are great. Good suspension is sometging youd want. The rest will get changed at some point anyway. Im on the fence for battery size and leaning towards 2 x 500(540 in my case) but my 540 has been great most of the time. If i dont use boost i can scratch out 13-1400m at 165lbs. I have some alpine zones ill need to use only boost and trail and will need 2 x 540 though. Seems more reasonable to pack a 500/540 battery over a 630. 625 may peesent a problem in a pack, idk

 

[RustyIron]

Is it unreasonable to expect 1,000m elevation and 35km up fire roads with either a 504WH or 625WH battery? If I could approach that kind of range on a 504WH I think I'd be pretty happy and would could consider leaving a spare battery in my car.

Not a problem at all, as long as you're aware of how this ebike thing works. I've had my EP8/504WH bike for about a month, and I've been doing exploratory rides before I venture deep into the wilderness. There are two rides where I got back to my truck with only a few electrons to spare.

16 miles and 3300 feet climbing
23 miles and 3900 feet of climbing

On both these rides, I was riding in tall gears at high speeds with a lot of assist on moderately technical trails. I've found that riding at a speed closer to that of an acoustic bike, with less assist, will increase the distance and elevation. For instance, last weekend was 14 miles and 2000 feet, and I got back to the truck with three bars out of five on the battery gauge.

You indicated that you're a strong rider, so I don't think you'll have a problem .

 

[Gary]

I got back to the truck with three bars out of five on the battery gauge.

On a shimano motor 3 bars left out of five can in reality mean less than 30% of useable battery left

Lowering climbing speed and riding steady (not accelerating or braking) is the easiest way to conserve battery
contrary to popular belief tall gears (ie. lowish cadence) affords better battery efficiency than low gearing and spinning fast as faster cadence causes the shimano motor to output more assistance.
if you have the old E8000 display or a Garmin GPS unit you can switch to a metric/graphic that shows you the motor output level

 

[flash]

Yeah. I realised that.
but 1000m in 35km tells me the climbing probably isn't all that steep.
around here in good conditions I get around 4000ft of climbing (1200m) out of a full 504wh battery using eco and trail but that can often be over just 11-15 miles (18-24km). Yeah a lot steeper.
But introduce any soft condition climbing terrain or climb faster (especially in Boost) and that range diminshes quite drastically.
I generally don't ride up anything that cant be climbed on a normal bike (some are pretty difficult though) so I don't run low gearing at all 36T chainring, 11-36t cassette) - and run 34tx10-42 on my normal mtb

Here, on average, it’s around 100-140m of rise per km for our fire road climbs. Can be steeper (I’m looking at you Kincumber) on occasion but for most of the Oz riding I’ve done it’s about that. My local is 270m rise on a 2.8km climb for each run.

However a lot of these roads aren’t in great condition. It can be months between gradings and we get a lot of ruts and washlines across the fire trails. Some are 4WD only! I know nothing about UK fire roads so don’t know how they compare but smooth gravel roads aren’t always what we have.

Gordon

 

[Gary]

I'm too old to use metres and Km so have to convert to ft and miles but from doing so our fireroad climbs seem about the same sort of gradients as you have. Which TBH isn't all that steep at all. But a lot of the descents are very steep

A lot of Scottish mtb riding is on handbuilt trails on managed forestry land. (Tree farms basically) and the fireroads access the forests but generally don't go all the way to the top. From the top of the fireroads there will generally be steeper singletrack, doubletrack or occasionally landrover track climbing. Trail builders tend to build from the top down and many trails are steep, technical and challenging. As is the way things have progressed.
On other Forestry land we also have managed trail centres and DH tracks with purpose built mtb routes to suite a wide range of ages/abilities and facilities/parking/etc.
We also have great access laws so ALL of our natural countryside is free for mtb access.
where I live is actually pretty flat in comparison but in less than a 4 mile radius I have 40miles of singletrack heading in all directions from my door varying from shared paths to woodland singletrack to farm/Estate land paths. The nearest hill range to me begins 8miles away and it's mainly fairly featureless old skool XC type riding where you're unlikely to see another soul on a 20 mile+ ride.

 

[CjP]

Hello, hope you enjoyed my clickbait title.
(hopefully Christian does not find this thread)

The click bait title got me!

E2 all the way!

 

[Pdoz]

OHM? Great name for an emtb forum.

Where in oz do you live / intend to ride and are you one of the silly buggers who does crazy stuff with christian?

I've just bought his levo sl, plus I have a 2018 giant . Over the weekend, I discovered this fat lazy body doesn't enjoy self shuttling the 4x4 access on a levo sl @ mt taylor ( bairnsdale, vic) . Whilst it's only 350 m in 3 km, the last bits are the steepest and my legs are used to the giant....Sure, I can get up, but on the giant I could easilly do 5 runs in a day ( over 1500 m elevation on a 500 wh battery, if that helps you)

With the 2 bikes you mention, read their fine print on warranty - buyer pays postage for warranty work. Unless you are comfortable doing your own problem solving, or have a supportive lbs who won't be offended working on a bike supplied by someone else, it might be worth looking for a different brand?

 

[mas]

Hello, hope you enjoyed my clickbait title.

I have spent several nights losing sleep over whether to shell out an obscene amount of money on an electric toy. I've two potential bikes in my sights:
1. The Marin E2 - 'primo option', $9,000; and
2. The Poly Mt Bromo N7 - budget option $5,800 (plus $100 to $1000 of necessary upgrades).
(I should add that both bikes are in AUD, sold direct to consumer here)

My reason for looking into an EMTB because I like riding steep downhill trails. Riding to the top of these fatigues me so much that I'm too tired to try the bigger drops and technical sections by the time I get to them. I also don't feel confident hitting big stuff until I've ridden the trail at least once to remember where everything is - by then I'm often too tired to get back up the trail!

I'm basically looking for a self-shuttling bike to ride downhill on and to get more value for the limited time that I have to shred.

The Marin E2 looks like a complete package which is ready to ride. The Bromo on the other hand would warrant some SLX/XT brake levers and possibly a budget-friendly coil. I have a set of 170mm Fox 38 Performance forks on my enduro bike which I could put on if I have issues with the Durolux, though I've read that the Durolux is a solid fork.

I'm not sure what I'll lose riding an EP7000 with a 504WH battery compared to a EP8 with 625WH. I am quite fit and would only be using the motor to help me get to the top of long descents more quickly and more often. I don't plan on doing general trail or XC riding on an EMTB. I'm a little unsure about the reliability of these motors. I would hope that if buying a $9,000 bike, the motor would last for 5 years if properly maintained. It does scare me how much can go wrong on a $9,000 bike, particularly given how much it will be ridden down the steepest local terrain I can find.

I'm not fooling myself into thinking I'm a great rider, but it would be nice to develop my skills faster, before I'm 40. I have some short clips on Youtube to show some of the trails that I ride: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCViDQVCuNTN2qNXDrgtt47w




(hopefully Christian does not find this thread)

Any reason you wouldn't choose the N8 instead? It has the EP8 but smaller battery so you might want more range anyway...
I would also look at Merida and Norco form 99 bikes.

 

[Ordinary Human Male]

Any reason you wouldn't choose the N8 instead? It has the EP8 but smaller battery so you might want more range anyway...
I would also look at Merida and Norco form 99 bikes.

Any reason you wouldn't choose the N8 instead? It has the EP8 but smaller battery so you might want more range anyway...
I would also look at Merida and Norco form 99 bikes.

That's a good question.

I did consider the N8 and to spend the spare $ on an extra battery if needed.

Having said that, the reviews of the E2 are much more positive, the suspension is significantly better, the battery is bigger, and there is less mechanical complexity. Normally I'd take reviews with a grain of salt, but the number of glowing reviews is hard to disregard, whereas the verdict doesn't seem to be out on the N8 yet.

The E160 and VLT are other good value options but they don't quite reach the level of the E2 in terms of spec. The chainstay length of the VLT also puts me off a bit. The N8 is extremely similar to my enduro bike which I love aside from it needing speed to feel like it handles well, and the E2 is pretty similar to that notwithstanding the mixed wheel size.

 

[Ordinary Human Male]

OHM? Great name for an emtb forum.

Where in oz do you live / intend to ride and are you one of the silly buggers who does crazy stuff with christian?

I've just bought his levo sl, plus I have a 2018 giant . Over the weekend, I discovered this fat lazy body doesn't enjoy self shuttling the 4x4 access on a levo sl @ mt taylor ( bairnsdale, vic) . Whilst it's only 350 m in 3 km, the last bits are the steepest and my legs are used to the giant....Sure, I can get up, but on the giant I could easilly do 5 runs in a day ( over 1500 m elevation on a 500 wh battery, if that helps you)

With the 2 bikes you mention, read their fine print on warranty - buyer pays postage for warranty work. Unless you are comfortable doing your own problem solving, or have a supportive lbs who won't be offended working on a bike supplied by someone else, it might be worth looking for a different brand?

Haha nice one! That Levo isn't far off the weight as my enduro bike!

Ω - indeed

The craziest thing I've done riding in Christian's group is probably trying to keep up with the motors while climbing. He has other friends that do crazy stuff - I'm part of the social group. I'm pretty conservative and it takes me a while to warm up to ride aggressively enough. Without uplift, it sometimes seems like this never happens!

 

[Sidepod]

Not sure if it’s of any use but I recently had a day at Black Mountains Trail Centre, shuttling on the eeb.
The height delta top to bottom is approximately 120m vertical.
I managed 12 runs on one 625wh battery. There may have been one more in it but I opted not to fall into the “just one more run” trap.
I weigh 74kg and am reasonably fit. I used a mix of eco and low for the ascents.

My conclusion at the end of that particular day, if uplift is available don’t waste the effort riding back up. Take a different bike.

oh, ambient was approx 18deg.

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

Not sure if it’s of any use but I recently had a day at Black Mountains Trail Centre, shuttling on the eeb.
The height delta top to bottom is approximately 120m vertical.
I managed 12 runs on one 625wh battery. There may have been one more in it but I opted not to fall into the “just one more run” trap.
I weigh 74kg and am reasonably fit. I used a mix of eco and low for the ascents.

My conclusion at the end of that particular day, if uplift is available don’t waste the effort riding back up. Take a different bike.

oh, ambient was approx 18deg.

this place is down the road to me and I gotta get there soon..
got 2 batteries so will be turbo'ing up all day long

 

[Sidepod]

I found 12 runs was enough for me on the day. I was only there 4 hours. I had a second battery but I was starting to confuse ambition with ability on the downhills v

 

[dobbyhasfriends]

I found 12 runs was enough for me on the day. I was only there 4 hours. I had a second battery but I was starting to confuse ambition with ability on the downhills v

some old blokes just never learn

 

[1oldfart]

I suggest you get support from a good LBS. Check Giant if possible.

 

[carlbiker]

Cant say this often but i agree with everything in this thread , apart from the vids mentioned. Havent seen them. No doubt having fun though.
Id definitely get the ep8. Wouldnt worry too much about parts. 4 piston deore or slx are great. Good suspension is sometging youd want. The rest will get changed at some point anyway. Im on the fence for battery size and leaning towards 2 x 500(540 in my case) but my 540 has been great most of the time. If i dont use boost i can scratch out 13-1400m at 165lbs. I have some alpine zones ill need to use only boost and trail and will need 2 x 540 though. Seems more reasonable to pack a 500/540 battery over a 630. 625 may peesent a problem in a pack, idk

not sure but a 625kw fits into the same place a 500w does on my Orbea wild so I can’t imagine the weight being hugely more…..I bid £450 on a 625w battery earlier, 2nd hand 500w are about £400…..I should have bid more as it went for £460 but I was kinda picking up an Asda shop whilst loading and bidding phffff

My bike can take 2 batteries also but the weight on that thing would be horrible, I’d also not fancy carrying a battery although those evoc bags look good.

625w should be plenty for anyone with any kind of fitness, can have a full days riding on one of those; I wish I’d have gone for 625w when I was choosing

 

[Dirtnvert]

not sure but a 625kw fits into the same place a 500w does on my Orbea wild so I can’t imagine the weight being hugely more…..I bid £450 on a 625w battery earlier, 2nd hand 500w are about £400…..I should have bid more as it went for £460 but I was kinda picking up an Asda shop whilst loading and bidding phffff

My bike can take 2 batteries also but the weight on that thing would be horrible, I’d also not fancy carrying a battery although those evoc bags look good.

625w should be plenty for anyone with any kind of fitness, can have a full days riding on one of those; I wish I’d have gone for 625w when I was choosing

Pretty sweet that the wild will take both sizes of battery. Most days id be fine with the 625w only. There are a few local climb into the alpine trails around here that id need 2 x 500w though. Theyre hike a bike or heli drop trails. You could climb them on an emtb but they would need a mix of trail and boost. Not many parts would be possible in eco, if any. 5500-7000 vertical feet

 

[Cseven]

I would definitely go with the Marin E2 but the only thing holding me back is its shorter front and rear travel for aggressive enduro riding… went with the YT decoy core 3 instead. Really banking on the 700wh batt that they’ll hopefully drop on day…