I demoed a Trek Hardtail ebike and I'm hooked. Leaning toward a Levo, but open to suggestions and comments. It's hard to keep up my friends.

[Chappy42]

I demoed a Trek Hardtail ebike and I'm hooked. Leaning toward a Levo, but open to suggestions and comments. It's hard to keep up my much younger friends. I have a Pivot 429 and a Epic Carbon and plan on selling both to go ebike. Mostly riding the beatuiful trails around Phoenix.

 

[33red]

Hopefully you can demo a few. If you like long chainstay i would say check Giant. If you like range, reliable and instant power Yamaha is tough to beat. Haibike have some Yamaha models. You can read about Specialized troubles till december. Their belt is not ready it drains the battery.

 

[Rusty]

Me, I love my Levo. Not sure about the belt draining the battery as I get almost exactly the same distance on my Brose powered Levo as I do my Shimano powered Scott. With the Levo I get a much quieter ride which I really appreciate and am able to upgrade to the 700Wh battery.
On the flipside, the Scott Genius eRide comes with better suspension & brakes IMHO.

 

[lumpy]

Their belt is not ready it drains the battery.

Say what? First I've heard of this. Can you provide some evidence?

 

[33red]

Say what? First I've heard of this. Can you provide some evidence?

They are selling bigger battery just like Shimano.
2 big budget marketing about light engine but the bigger battery = more weight and more expansive. You can read and learn or you can buy and prove it.

 

[lumpy]

I demoed a Trek Hardtail ebike and I'm hooked. Leaning toward a Levo, but open to suggestions and comments. It's hard to keep up my much younger friends. I have a Pivot 429 and a Epic Carbon and plan on selling both to go ebike. Mostly riding the beatuiful trails around Phoenix.

Lots of great choices for a great ebike for you. I suggest you find an LBS you like and test ride some different bikes. All the bikes have pros and cons, and you'll get lots of opinions from internet warriors so take people's posts with a grain of salt.
Going with a big brand like Trek or Specialized is never a bad idea as they'll be able to back it up if there is a problem.

 

[lumpy]

They are selling bigger battery just like Shimano.
2 big budget marketing about light engine but the bigger battery = more weight and more expansive. You can read and learn or you can buy and prove it.

How is the belt not ready relate to battery size?

 

[Rusty]

They are selling bigger battery just like Shimano.
2 big budget marketing about light engine but the bigger battery = more weight and more expansive. You can read and learn or you can buy and prove it.

Have a Shimano and a Brose - both with 504Wh batteries and both give approximately the same range in 32kph mode. The 700Wh battery for the Brose is about 750g heavier due to more cells but considering the weight on the unit is still lighter than most.

As far as the belt being a problem - there is probably less drag with a belt than with gears. I think Brose who have been building electric motors for more than 60 years probably have an idea as how to do things.

 

[33red]

How is the belt not ready relate to battery size?

it delivers less range so riders want to ride longer and need bigger batteries

 

[Rusty]

it delivers less range so riders want to ride longer and need bigger batteries

Sorry, but since it creates less friction it will not deliver less range. The range is more about power output and how they are rode.
First graph is a couple years old and the second one last year.

 

[33red]

There is no reason to be sorry unless you allready bought it. Yamaha was first and they know what works. They deliver more range.

 

[Mikerb]

There are a lot of variables when it comes to how much range any slecific motor/ battery combination will deliver. Distance is not even a reasonable guide. Most of my rides are the same distance downhill as uphill. So 50% of the distance the motor is doing nothing. Compare that to a trek type ride where the motor is supplying power a the time....then it is a matter of bike/rider weight, what modes are used, the terrain, and how efficiently the motor is used (cadence). There is no guarantee a bigger battery delivers proportionately more range. A lot depends on deployment and battery technology.

 

[lumpy]

it delivers less range so riders want to ride longer and need bigger batteries

You're just making up stuff now

 

[33red]

There are a lot of variables when it comes to how much range any slecific motor/ battery combination will deliver. Distance is not even a reasonable guide. Most of my rides are the same distance downhill as uphill. So 50% of the distance the motor is doing nothing. Compare that to a trek type ride where the motor is supplying power a the time....then it is a matter of bike/rider weight, what modes are used, the terrain, and how efficiently the motor is used (cadence). There is no guarantee a bigger battery delivers proportionately more range. A lot depends on deployment and battery technology.

For me i use time. Will my recharged battery last 3, 4, 5, hours???
So i know if i need to check the display to manage energy or can i ride blindly knowing it will not get empty. We need to rely on riders who do the same riding mutiple times on system A and also on system B. They can report using abc it delivers more or the same or less range than using def. Before buying my bike i asked and since it was an unsold a rider answered with a detailed report about his experience, minuses and pluses. Sofar it seems he was just an honest rider not representing a brand my experience is what he described. If people are curious about range they can like me invest time on that subject.

 

[Rusty]

If people are curious about range they can like me invest time on that subject.

Trust me - I did.
Have a 46km loop (29mile approx) that has approx 620M elevation gain (2034ft) that I do with an average speed of around 14kph (8.6mph). With my Shimano engined Scott eGenius I was falling short in distance by about 2-3 kilometers so decided to look for alternatives. Hired a Giant for a half day and did the same loop - ran flat at 36-37km mark. Hired a Focus the next day with a Bosch motor and got about 38-39km before going flat and that was with both battery packs. Shop loaned me a Levo and I was within spitting distance of where I ran flat with the Scott.
Each time I was wearing the exact same riding kit and carrying 1 water bottle only.

The only real difference was both of the hire bikes were restricted to 25kph. In each case I was riding in Eco mode for the bulk of the ride with an approximate 1.1km section where I rode powered off. Trail mode was used for approximately 2km in bursts of 12metres to about 32metres on assorted pinch climbs.

That is all 4 of the common motors available.
I concluded that the Yamaha was the nosiest with not much between the Shimano and the Bosch and the Brose the quietest.
The Yamaha was very abrupt in power but not uncontrollably. The Bosch seemed to keep power on after i stopped peddling longer than the others. The Shimano was almost instant stop of assist after I stopped peddling and was the mildest when setting off. The Brose was somewhere in the middle.

My conclusion was that for me the Levo with the Brose was the best option as I could fit the 700W/h battery. Was a hard choice because I had a preference for Fox suspension and had a serious dislike of Sram brakes.
I loved the Giant E+ 0 as far as component build went as was the best of the lot suspension wise and had awesome brakes but felt the noise was too great for me to enjoy my rides. The Focus was very under specced so was not a contender and the Bosch motor was not to my mind a comfortable fit.
At the end, the Scott with the Shimano motor was my original purchase and if I had not the option of the bigger motor would have gone that way again.

 

[33red]

Trust me - I did.
Have a 46km loop (29mile approx) that has approx 620M elevation gain (2034ft) that I do with an average speed of around 14kph (8.6mph). With my Shimano engined Scott eGenius I was falling short in distance by about 2-3 kilometers so decided to look for alternatives. Hired a Giant for a half day and did the same loop - ran flat at 36-37km mark. Hired a Focus the next day with a Bosch motor and got about 38-39km before going flat and that was with both battery packs. Shop loaned me a Levo and I was within spitting distance of where I ran flat with the Scott.
Each time I was wearing the exact same riding kit and carrying 1 water bottle only.

The only real difference was both of the hire bikes were restricted to 25kph. In each case I was riding in Eco mode for the bulk of the ride with an approximate 1.1km section where I rode powered off. Trail mode was used for approximately 2km in bursts of 12metres to about 32metres on assorted pinch climbs.

That is all 4 of the common motors available.
I concluded that the Yamaha was the nosiest with not much between the Shimano and the Bosch and the Brose the quietest.
The Yamaha was very abrupt in power but not uncontrollably. The Bosch seemed to keep power on after i stopped peddling longer than the others. The Shimano was almost instant stop of assist after I stopped peddling and was the mildest when setting off. The Brose was somewhere in the middle.

My conclusion was that for me the Levo with the Brose was the best option as I could fit the 700W/h battery. Was a hard choice because I had a preference for Fox suspension and had a serious dislike of Sram brakes.
I loved the Giant E+ 0 as far as component build went as was the best of the lot suspension wise and had awesome brakes but felt the noise was too great for me to enjoy my rides. The Focus was very under specced so was not a contender and the Bosch motor was not to my mind a comfortable fit.
At the end, the Scott with the Shimano motor was my original purchase and if I had not the option of the bigger motor would have gone that way again.

I say great to all rider that find a good match for them. I am retired, no penny enter my pocket whatever you buy.

 

[Mikerb]

I have a Levo Comp. Recently did The Gap....a ride over the Brecon Beacons and Black Mountain in South Wales UK. Distance was just over 40kms with 2100ft of climb and about half the tour was on very loose rock. I used trail mode on most of the climbing so probably for an hour and a quarter of the ride which took 2 hours 40. I had 30% battery left when I finished. My mate on a Levo base is 15kg lighter than me....probably used trail mode a little less than me and he had 44% battery left. Our motor support modes are set the same.

Neither distance or time is any reliable guide on range. Even the amount of facing wind can make a difference. In my experience so far the biggest gain in range is obtained by running the motor at its most efficient cadence. Certainly for the Brose motor that means maintaining a cadence above 65.

 

[Pukmeister]

Surely looking at those power/cadence graphs, the best way to conserve power is to run at a cadence that provides 250W, rather than a high cadence/high power consumption? All the graph data is similar cadence around the 250W mark, so all bikes should be in a tall gear/low cadence for less power draw.

 

[Rusty]

Surely looking at those power/cadence graphs, the best way to conserve power is to run at a cadence that provides 250W, rather than a high cadence/high power consumption? All the graph data is similar cadence around the 250W mark, so all bikes should be in a tall gear/low cadence for less power draw.

Worthwhile experimenting that.
When I complained of only getting 36-42k per charge the Shimano techs wanted me to set the display for cadence and advise what my average was. 80-90 transport and many trails, 90-110 on climbs and randomness on some trails with constant ups & downs. Once I provided that data they advised that cadence was not the issue. Pretty certain they were looking at me riding 60-70.

 

[Mikerb]

Althkugh the Brlse is quiet I can hear an increase in motor noise when it is asked to work harder. It reslonds with increased power the more torque I apply. If I then use a lower gear whilst maintaining the same speed I am reducing the torque I apply to the pedals but of course increasing cadence. The motor becomes almost silent....meaning it is working less hard whilst still delivering the power. To me that means less stress on drive train and motor because the motor is at its most efficient.
Another factor that impacts on range is flow. Just like in a car the engine has most work to do when it has to accelerate the mass so maintaining the bikes momentum will save power.

 

[Pukmeister]

Rusty, I'm taking those graphs with a large pich of salt btw, seeing as one is by Bosch showing its motor performing best, and another by Specialised showing different results with both their motors performing best.

Hardly independently verified and unbiased data.

Both graphs make the Yamaha (and Shimano in the second graph) look shit, they don't give the full picture of how it (or any of the motors for that matter) actually feel and perform in the real world.

 

[33red]

I agree the riding style is a factor.
Also numbers can say what people want them to say.
Here in Montreal our subway is about 52 years old.
From the design they opted for rubber tires. They cost more, need more maintenance, explode. Many other cities were using metal.
Each choice has some advantages and some disadvantages otherwise all would make the same choice.
I trust Yamaha and Bosh more than the 2 others.
The important to me are reliability and range. With over 2,930 kms 0 problem and lots of range i am happy.
I hope every rider is happy with their Ebikes and bikes.
Happy trails!

 

[Rusty]

Rusty, I'm taking those graphs with a large pich of salt btw, seeing as one is by Bosch showing its motor performing best, and another by Specialised showing different results with both their motors performing best.

Hardly independently verified and unbiased data.

Both graphs make the Yamaha (and Shimano in the second graph) look shit, they don't give the full picture of how it (or any of the motors for that matter) actually feel and perform in the real world.

True enough - always pays to verify. I did have some other charts last year from other sources that were not too dissimilar to those. Have to also take into account the Bosch one was using the older Brose motor and the Brose chart shows the Bosch not too different to their one.
The thing about both is that it shows where power is being made - which is the rear benefit of the charts.
Shows the Yamaha motor is actually quite punchy down in the low cadence, which compares to how abrupt I found it. Also shows that spinning your legs off is no real benefit as best power is around 80 cadence.
Also shows that most tail off after 80 or 90 but Brose continues to slightly increase to 110.

Now - who the hell wants to pedal at that cadence?
Also, this is maximum power and not maximum sustained power - quite different. If running at max power all the time I would probably only get 18-20km out of a charge.

 

[33red]

True enough - always pays to verify. I did have some other charts last year from other sources that were not too dissimilar to those. Have to also take into account the Bosch one was using the older Brose motor and the Brose chart shows the Bosch not too different to their one.
The thing about both is that it shows where power is being made - which is the rear benefit of the charts.
Shows the Yamaha motor is actually quite punchy down in the low cadence, which compares to how abrupt I found it. Also shows that spinning your legs off is no real benefit as best power is around 80 cadence.
Also shows that most tail off after 80 or 90 but Brose continues to slightly increase to 110.

Now - who the hell wants to pedal at that cadence?
Also, this is maximum power and not maximum sustained power - quite different. If running at max power all the time I would probably only get 18-20km out of a charge.

That is a very good point,,,
,***Also, this is maximum power and not maximum sustained power - quite different. If running at max power all the time I would probably only get 18-20km out of a charge. ***

I use max power when i pedal to the trails and back.
Never in the trails.
Some feel the Yamaha *less natural feeling*
but that goes away fast. We learn the way the assist works and it is a great partner. Most of the time i can start uphill. No need for walk assist nor long walks. I prefer going true a short learning curve than an assist that is lacking. Simply begin using eco mode and you will not be surprised and soon a higher mode will be no problem.

 

[Rusty]

Rusty, I'm taking those graphs with a large pich of salt btw, seeing as one is by Bosch showing its motor performing best, and another by Specialised showing different results with both their motors performing best.

Hardly independently verified and unbiased data.

Both graphs make the Yamaha (and Shimano in the second graph) look shit, they don't give the full picture of how it (or any of the motors for that matter) actually feel and perform in the real world.

Knew I had another more recent Yamaha graph that kind of shows a little of what those others did but also shows the new improved for 2020 power curve.

 

[Mikerb]

These graphs show the torque curve of the motor and really only shows at what range of cadence it is operating most efficiently. How much power/ assist and therefore how much draw from the battery...and therefore range...is being delivered is however proportionate in the main to the torque you apply to the pedals ( and the settings you apply for pedal assist and max power).

 

[MitchF]

I bet the OP wishes he’d never asked, post hijacked by “beltgate” ??‍

Chappy42, get into some dealers and take a look and feel, get demo’s , you’ll have a budget and idea what you want. Brand loayalty is a mine field ?

Buy what you want and like and get out there ?

 

[Pukmeister]

Apologies to the Op for the hijack, got sucked in to another motor debate, sorry.
Whatever Emtb you choose will still be awesome.

 

[33red]

Say what? First I've heard of this. Can you provide some evidence?

you might read this
Range Levo vs Yamaha ,,, and the winner is - EMTB Forums

 

[lumpy]

you might read this
Range Levo vs Yamaha ,,, and the winner is - EMTB Forums

That doesn't help except to restate your bias towards Yamaha and against Specialized