I Backed Out of New E-MTB Purchase

[Endoguru]

Nope not tried the SL, the local Specialised Concept store had them in stock, but again no test bike available, they only had a ff Levo demonstrator.

Also interestingly the manager wasn’t very happy with the way Specialised were taking their geometry on the new models as he said they were going even slacker on the head angles, I’d tend to agree with that, especially for the type of riding you can do round where I live.

This shows the differences in what we are all looking for in a bike. I love what Specialized is doing with their geometry. I’m a big fan of the longer slacker trend. If you want a more responsive bike you can size down a frame and get a shorter reach which will make the handling a little snappier, but the slacker head angle will still create stability at speed.

 

[Doomanic]

If you like what Spesh are doing now come back in a couple of years; you’ll love it when they catch up with what everyone else is doing now...

 

[jooles]

If you like what Spesh are doing now come back in a couple of years; you’ll love it when they catch up with what everyone else is doing now...

interesting comment; where do you think Spesh need to catch up ? The Kenevo has always been the DH monster truck and Levo more trail/enduro. Spesh are up there in terms of integration of motor/battery/controls/rider.

overall eMtb have progressed amazingly although some “older” designs are still great bikes. Personally I think sticking a battery in the down tube is to an extent form over function.

Although not a fan of Lapierre; the Overvolt obviously goes very very well yet is still “old skool” with externally mounted batteries (mounted lower in frame). Hats off.

On this theme; A cheaper way into eMtb may be to get hold of a “non trendy” external battery bike; Haibike, Merida, Lapierre etc. They still go very well indeed. And around £3.5k if you can find one. Then you have space to upgrade when needed. We all love to upgrade ....

 

[Doomanic]

interesting comment; where do you think Spesh need to catch up ?

The comment was about geometry. Spesh were at least a year behind the curve when they released the 2019 Levo and the 2021 has the same geo.

 

[jooles]

It’s designed to go mullet and reduce HA by 1 degree ;-)

The Levo was/is a little more trail oriented the Kenevo is designed to be slacker and burley.

 

[Doomanic]

It’s designed to go mullet and reduce HA by 1 degree ;-)

Really? Designed by whom? Specialized? Link please.

 

[jooles]

Hi, no link other than to myself having tested for my own use mullet bikes vs non mullet for years.

The enduro 29 loves to be mullet for certain conditions (steep and gnar) so I swap rear wheel around accordingly. For longer climbs and more distance a 29 goes in the back.

Made my 27.5 boost Ebike mullet by going 29 up front and it transformed it.

Mullet has been around ages. Steve Jones was banging on about it many many years ago. Way before eMtb were on trend.

All about fettling to the individual need.

Or, if you want on trend slack and long go Kenevo s5

Thats the advantage of 29ers they can take different wheel sizes out back.

As you say there are many many great ebikes out there and a fair few are mullet off the production line.

 

[Gary]

Spesh were at least a year behind the curve when they released the 2019 Levo and the 2021 has the same geo

and from what I see out on the trails your average Emtb rider is about 25 years behind the current skills curve of a decent rider.
It really doesn't matter how on trend your bike's geometry is when your basic riding skills level is so low you're brake dragging down anything vaguely steep or technical, holding kids up on flow trails and casing the shit out of easy jumps.
The super slack super long geometry a lot of folk now crave only adds stability. so it's great for going super fast on roughAF terain or for just plow climbing straight into and over stuff in boost with blindly turning stupidly short cranks. But for a rider who struggles to jump, manual or turn a normal bike well it's actually a hinderance. and even more so on a 20lb heavier bike.

 

[Winger]

Interesting reading where this thread is going, as I said earlier I have a Turbo Levo, my wife has Cube Stereo 160 mechanically and the way it is built is an absolute quantum leap in front of mine.

The way the TL works is fine, but the mechanical nitty gritty is way behind the Cube.

 

[jooles]

I spent 25 years on a non Ebike before going with a motor. Only started more technical DH stuff 6 years ago after moving to an area with some great trails.

Ive certainly met some riders with new eMtb kit out in our local trails who have struggled on stuff that at 56 I ride weekly solo (not so much currently as very very sketchy stuff due to wet). But I’m used to it. And they are always welcome as learning is part of the fun.

however I’m crap at doing manuals more than a few bike lengths, do case jumps at times but still enjoy an Ebike ;-)

Dont feel for a minute that unless you are a skills god that an eMtb isn’t for you. A skill established non Ebike riders don’t have is technical climbs that would normally require a carry. Unless from a trials background.

my wife needed a new hip, doesn’t ride anything technical but loves her eMtb as it helps her achieve more.

More the case as per the OP is what bike suits you best and how to establish that. A slacker bike with more stable geometry does help newer riders go down steeper stuff more safely. However I do agree some basic skills, including choosing the best lines is important to get the most out of bike and terrain.

 

[Gary]

Dont feel for a minute that unless you are a skills god that an eMtb isn’t for you.

No. I wasn't saying that at all. I was simply stating that mediocre riders don't *need* the latest bike or most extreme "enduro" geometry.

A skill established non Ebike riders don’t have is technical climbs that would normally require a carry. Unless from a trials background.

Well that's an absolute load of rubbish. I've ridden steep technical trails for 30 years. How do you think we got to the top?

not so much currently as very very sketchy stuff due to wet

Point in case. you're not a very technically gifted rider if you veer away from technical riding when it's wet.

 

[jooles]

Im sure you probably pushed to the top as I did. You can climb steeper more technical stuff on an eMtb, hence the power stages on E EWS rounds.

You are right I’m certainly not gifted on a bike.

 

[Gary]

I genuinely haven't climbed anything in 3 years of owning Emtbs that couldn't be climbed on a normal bike.
Those E EWS "special" stages are totally climbable on a normal bike.

The motor just makes it either less effort, faster or both.
But yeah. sometimes the momentum afforded by the motor will make a rough, technical or low grip section a LOT easier

 

[jooles]

When this COVID crisis is in a more manageable form ( we are locked down in Wales) & if you’re uk based come on over and we can have a laugh on some ridiculous climbs ...walk Mode time ;-)

Karma

 

[Gary]

Whereabouts in Wales? I've ridden a lot of Welsh hills (many years back).
The same invitation is open to you if you ever venture across the border(s) to Scotland and want a guide around Tweed Valley or Central belt trails.
cheers

 

[GDAS]

Interesting reading where this thread is going, as I said earlier I have a Turbo Levo, my wife has Cube Stereo 160 mechanically and the way it is built is an absolute quantum leap in front of mine.

The way the TL works is fine, but the mechanical nitty gritty is way behind the Cube.

can you elaborate on the meaning of "mechanical nitty gritty"? And is your TL generation 1 or 2?

 

[Gary]

Ah... yeah. know the area well from downhill scene back in the late 90s early 00s.

it was Gethin Forest to us back then and Rowan was just a kid
I even helped dig some of the original DH tracks. which have now probably got ever so hilarious trail names instead

 

[jooles]

Hi Gary

Ah... yeah. know the area well from downhill scene back in the late 90s early 00s.

it was Gethin Forest to us back then and Rowan was just a kid
I even helped dig some of the original DH tracks. which have now probably got ever so hilarious trail names instead

tried a message but ended up on the forum, didnt want to hijack the OP.

I’d like the wild camping of Scotland when you’ve opened the border. Never biked there. Would be super. A real UK gem.

yes many trails around here built to test bikes and ex DH nationals guys. Well beyond me some. Simply not talented enough and getting older so falls hurt more.

For the OP not sure where based, however a local shop to us in Monmouth offers rental on bikes to try out plus you have pedalabikeaway in the FOD ...it may be worth a trip to get the right bike and decide. Or lookup where you are based and see if any bike centres do the same.

It can be worth the trip.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Dont feel for a minute that unless you are a skills god that an eMtb isn’t for you.

No. I wasn't saying that at all. I was simply stating that mediocre riders don't *need* the latest bike or most extreme "enduro" geometry.

and from what I see out on the trails your average Emtb rider is about 25 years behind the current skills curve of a decent rider.

I just had to laugh because you are so spot on Gary... many of us can get carried away and fuss about this-and-that componentry spec and whatever frame geometry, which probably hardly even matters. A conundrum we're faced when too many good choices are on offer.

Another thing seldom mentioned... is that the tracks/trails we ride these days have also changed both in features and intensity as the leading end of the sport continues to evolve (and rightly so) over the last 40+ years when MTBiking formally started as a sport. Tis' been a long history since barrelling down plain Marin forest fire roads with make-shift cruiser bikes (with brakes that hardly work) to the RedBullish Xgames-esque standards we have today. Understandably, the bike designs have evolved along with it.

However, the reality is that anyone getting started on MTB still begins by riding a flat gravel road or dirt track occasionally being confronted by a jump which in reality is nothing more than a road bump. Children take to this easily, but many are only just discovering the sport and the catch-up skills gap if one aspires to get to the very top today is huge. The naturally gifted can make the transition, but the majority of us plateau somewhere in the middle (some higher, some lower). Nothing wrong with the middle ground... this is reality - not everyone who buys a set of golf clubs needs to be a Tiger Woods.

But the reality for bike manufacturers is another matter altogether, as it's impossible to build just one do-it-all bike for every individual placed somewhere within the present skills spectrum. Hence just about every single bike can either be too much or too little regarding anything for everyone. And for the unfamiliar, the process of simply choosing a bike these days has become so overly 'precise and exacting' that many stress over it. The huge eMTB price tags certainly doesn't help either.

.

My grandsons are coming of age so I walked around our local BMX track for the first time recently (moved to a new city) and I couldn't see over the top of the majority of jumps (mostly 8 foot + tall). I remember taking my kids to a BMX track some 25 years ago - the the jumps back then were knee high with just one chest high 'killer' table top, not really killer these days. Such is the skills curve gap advancement within just one generation. Oddly enough, the current crop of BMX bikes haven't changed much at all? Anyway, it'll be good training ground for them if they ever wish to transition into MTBiking later on.

 

[Gary]

 

[Rosemount]

Interesting reading where this thread is going, as I said earlier I have a Turbo Levo, my wife has Cube Stereo 160 mechanically and the way it is built is an absolute quantum leap in front of mine.

The way the TL works is fine, but the mechanical nitty gritty is way behind the Cube.

Wha ?

Other than the carbon frame , what is superior ?
Still has the magnet on the spokes . Shitty charger port cover .
Fox or Rock Shox . Shimano or SRAM . There isn`t a lot of difference ...

I have owned 3 Cube E bikes . They are good value for money . Pretty conservative when it comes to geometry though .

 

[Rosemount]

Super heavy bikes actually NEVER feel any lighter than they are. It's a complete myth. If you begin to think they do you simply don't ride normal bikes enough anymore.
If you want a light Emtb there are options out there but a full power motor AND large battery aren't in that mix at all.


Be careful with that train of thought. A motor isn't necessarily going to help your dodgy knee.
I started getting daily almost debilitating knee pain from riding my Emtb too much (commuting). I've ended up switching back to my road bike to commute and riding my normal mtbs way more than the Emtb re-building muscle strength/stability lost from the reduced exercise levels/duration of an Ebike.

If you only ever ride an E bike I think the weight difference would be less noticeable .
Jump back and forth between push bikes and E bikes and you will certainly notice the difference . Start out on a heavier bike . Learn to ride it .
Never know any difference .

This is my experience . Never owned a regular MTB . Gotten a lot stronger in the upper body since trail riding the E Truck .
Has taken time . And a steep learning curve .

Technique trumps brute strength .

 

[Gary]

Re-read the second sentence you just quoted?

You're basically just saying ignorance is bliss. Well... it may be but it's still ignorance and still doesn't change the fact that your super heavy bike hadles as such.
You don't need a heavy bike to increase upper body strength, it's how you ride rather than the additional weight that will give you the gainz. eg. Riding BMX, DH, dirt jumping, pump track or skate parks on normal bikes enough results in your upper body and core becoming super strong

BTW. I wouldn't ever want to only ride one type of bike.

 

[GrandPaBrogan]

Our learning and growth philosophy is formed and dictated by where we are at currently - where we came from - and where we envisage ourselves heading toward. So it's going to be different for everybody, and over time it can change too. So some can lap-up a wide scope of cycling disciplines, whereas for some just one will do. The term mountain biking also has a very broad meaning these days because it has branched out into all sorts of specialist fields - so every now and then it's good to step back a little bit and appreciate that we play in a very large 'sandbox.' Goals and targeted achievements will be different for every one.

Speaking of everyone... its great that Mr Miyagi approves ? but GrandMa Brogan is not so sure!
Here she is standing next to the landing slope of a gap jump and she's not 100% convinced that she wants her grandsons to learn BMX - even though she was a BMX mum herself for several years with our kids. Six year olds ride over or around these things without batting an eye lid. They just copy what the older riders are doing (this is the new normal of their generation), and the 10+ boys I can only imagine are already attempting to clear this.

Sorry to bring the BMX topic once more, but it's a good example to help us envisage the hidden skills gap that exists between various mountain bike riders that meet alongside each other in our local forest trails and bike parks. By and large we wear the same gear and ride similar looking bikes but we can sometimes be fooled by appearances. Former ex-BMX kids that grew up under this kind of regimen (like Gary) will always have a very different MTB perspective from the rest of us. It's all good... just different strokes for different folks.

For me, with my health issues and current medications... I'm in it for the fresh air, so I'm not sweating the itsy-bitsy details of conjuring up a perfect bike! ? I don't need to, because my context is different.

 

[Winger]

My Turbo Levo is a 20 model bought in march this year, right at the top of list is finish, the quality of the paint the Cube is in another league, the design of the bike might work well enough but cleaning the bloody thing and I don’t mean a hose pipe and brush but getting the bike back to close pristine condition takes me twice as long on my TL than my Wife’s Cube 160 Stereo.

The motor is certainly has that extra bit of go in it, but when it comes to bike design things have already moved ie vertically mounted spring rear shocks with half the linkages ie Focus Sam Squared

 

[Zimmerframe]

but when it comes to bike design things have already moved ie vertically mounted spring rear shocks with half the linkages ie Focus Sam Squared

Whilst the vertically mounted shock works well, it's just one of many designs which all try to balance the compromises between rear wheel movement/traction/pedalling efficiency and a million other things.

Horst and Vpp patents have expired so designers have slightly more scope when designing.

I don't think you can say that things have "moved" to a vertical shock design .... a nice antique ..

A quick overview of some suspension types :

Bicycle suspension - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Or something more in depth and only focusing on the rear if you have the time to read :

https://www.bikeradar.com/features/the-ultimate-guide-to-mountain-bike-rear-suspension-systems/

Suspension is something which is constantly evolving and improving. I'm not really sue you can suggest Spesh are behind the curve though ?

There is no wholesale leap to vertical .. look what Santa just brought you :

 

[Mteam]

Yep vertical shock or horizontal shock or diagonal shock is almost irrelevant, one is not better than the other, it's things like leverage curve, antisquat, antirise that matter most for riding, in conjunction with things like standover height, chainstay length, seat tube length and angle, centre of gravity, weight, number of bearings, cost, etc and the finally things like space for a bottle. It's all one big compromise, there is no best.

Thankfully there are bikes out there for pretty much everyone's chosen set of compromises

 

[Winger]

My back ground is/are motorcycles the frame and suspension design you currently see in electric mountain bikes was around over 20 years ago in motorcycles, diagonal positioned shocks... Yamaha stuck with them for years before they gave up, as for shocks themselves they need a spring to give any kind of control and consistency and they are also starting to appear.

Designers will get there, it’s just a matter of how quickly.

 

[Velociraptor]

How is that any different than the hordes of folk who aspire to owning "better" normal mtbs?

all the current popular motors are very good. (when working) just like there are very few bad normal mtbs anymore.

point in question:

This is actually pretty hilarious

Yeah I was laughing so much when I had to turn around on a big ride this summer because I was down to 1 bar of battery and ran out a couple of miles before the end anyway. And the rest of the summer I really enjoyed carrying and using an extra battery. My friends are all on Turbo Levos with 700wh batteries and they are all lighter than me. I am 6'2" 190lbs. So chasing them up big mountains on a bike with a less powerful motor and a smaller battery was.......hilarious..... Guess you had to be there to appreciate it.

 

[Gary]

I'm just in from a 20mile off road ride with my 18yr old. I rode my Eeb simply because it was closest to the door and ready to go so I rode the entire route with the bike switched off.

I'm a good bit heavier than you and under 6ft. Not that I've any idea why our weights or heights are relevant.