How to accurately count calories burned when riding an ebike / pedelec using IOS / Apple Health / Apple Watch

[Tetsugaku]

Hey folks - I have no idea if anyone has any ideas about this but I thought I'd try you. I'm assuming a forum dedicated to the most advanced bikes you can buy is not full of technophobes!

I'm exercising for weight loss as well as calorie counting. (yes, I have tried a dozen other methods, this is the one I'm doing for now!). I know I need a defect of 1,100 calories a day, I know that a combination of my Apple Watch to track exercise and MyFitness pal to track food will give me a sum total of calories burned + calories eaten and show me the numbers.

However. Electric bikes don't play well with just opening my watch, hitting outside ride and then hitting stop when I finish, because of course the effort I am putting in is definitely not what is being recorded. The motor helping me and all that...

I have a Specialized, their mission control app does *not* link to the apple health app and report exercise. However, it does upload straight to Strava if you want. Now, Strava will send data to Apple Health, but I'm not sure if it is sending a standard bike ride, or an assisted ride, which will have dramatically reduced calories.

First world, high tech problems, I know. But it's still really interesting to me!

Any ideas or feedback?

 

[Doomanic]

I've just had a play on Strava, swapping ride types between eBike and clockwork, and it didn't make any difference to the calorie calculation. I don't have a powermeter or HRM tied to Strava though which may make a difference.

 

[Varaxis]

How long you exercise, how fast/hard you exercise (intensity through heart rate), how much you weigh, and your fitness level (+age and gender) are the major determinants of calories burned. You shouldn't be expecting to see any difference in calories burned, unless you changed your level of effort. 2 hours on an ebike should be comparable to 2 hours on a regular bike, both with similar overall effort in terms of calories burned.

 

[Tetsugaku]

Turns out that this is way more complicated than I hoped it would be. However I do have a solution

Calories logged via 3 different methods are VASTLY different. I had a 24K commute home last night and I recorded it in 3 different simultaneous ways:
- Strava, via their app - 1,194 calories
- Apple Watch, started an outdoor ride - 793 calories
- Mission Control (specialised only) which then uploads a ride to Strava - 327 calories

I am staggered at how different these counts are.

Annoyingly, given how bad the mission control app is, I think it's recording the most accurate burn count.

Strava app - has no idea that 70% of the effort is being provided by the bike (even when the ride is specifically recorded as an ebike ride). And therefore counts the highest burn.

Apple Watch - Second best. More accurate because it has a heart rate monitor (and it's good, I've compared live to others). However the calculation for an "Outside bike ride" takes GPS into account as well and does a best guess. Still out by a factor of more than 2 however.

Mission Control - the only app that knows for sure how much effort I put in and how much the bike put in (which you can live display in the app, useful). My back of an envelope calculation whilst I'm riding, comparing my effort & motor effort says I'm putting in about 30% of the work. Which also tallies up if you look at the Strava app calorie count Vs the mission control calorie count.


What does all this mean?

If you are calorie counting to lose weight (I am, I am trying to lose 15KG) Then YOU MUST LOOK AT YOUR SOURCES CLOSELY. Because the difference between the high and the low counts is enough to make me put on weight, not lose it.

Can anyone pick holes in my logic? Please do!

How am I recording everything?
I am using the Lose it! app to record all my food
I am recording rides on my levo ONLY with the mission control app, which uploads to Strava, which uploads to the Apple Health app
Lose it! gives me a total calorie budget for the day that meets my goal of a 1,100 calorie deficit. This is worked out based on my daily burn for existing PLUS my exercise burn MINUS my total calorific intake.

I think I now have an accurate system. However it was not simple or easy to work out. I can't imagine most people being able to do this properly.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

How about a heart rate monitor chest strap, paired with the Apple Watch to give a better accuracy of heart rate / calories burned? or maybe paired with a different app?

 

[Tetsugaku]

TBH I had a Garmin smart watch and heart monitor when I trained for 3 half marathons, the readings it gave me were identical to the apple watch so I decided I had been heading down a "Gear Hole" (we all do it!) and plumped for the apple watch alone.

 

[Varaxis]

Dang, the bike was doing 70% of the effort on your commute?

The ones that go by GPS/distance are unreliable. The mission control app is closest to the estimate I would've guessed based on what you've said. I'm tired of this commercial trend that tries to flatter you with these kind of #s, that make it seem like you're fitter or work harder than you actually are.

 

[Tetsugaku]

I want the real numbers not flattery!

Yeah I did the marathons a year ago and spent the last 12 months getting divorced after my wife had an affair with a friend (still is in fact...) so I basically drank and ate loads, put on 15KG.

I couldn't have gone from no riding at all to doing 50K per day so I got the electric bike, and I'm planning on reducing the assist slowly!

 

[PeteIOM]

I'm not massively bothered by the calorie numbers as too many variables will make the data unreliable... but from previous rides I can atleast get an idea of what its doing.

These three rides are all pretty much the identical.. Same road/hills and only minor detours around the town traffic in each.
My BMC mtb is a 1x11 carbon frame bike weighing in around 8.9kg.
My eMTB is a Scott E-Scale740 weighing in at around 21kg

Ride one: BMC calories burned 1652.

Ride two: BMC with a GARMIN Heart Rate monitor 1730 calories burned

Ride three: Scott E-Scale 1416 calories burned.

Sooo, the eBike comes in around 200/300 less calories looking at the above.

Now, on my indoor Rower (Concept2 D) 30 minutes averaging 2:01 per 500m (7000 metres total) I'm burning 590 calories.. according to the onboard computer.

 

[Stumpy]

Turns out that this is way more complicated than I hoped it would be. However I do have a solution

Calories logged via 3 different methods are VASTLY different. I had a 24K commute home last night and I recorded it in 3 different simultaneous ways:
- Strava, via their app - 1,194 calories
- Apple Watch, started an outdoor ride - 793 calories
- Mission Control (specialised only) which then uploads a ride to Strava - 327 calories

I am staggered at how different these counts are.

Annoyingly, given how bad the mission control app is, I think it's recording the most accurate burn count.

Strava app - has no idea that 70% of the effort is being provided by the bike (even when the ride is specifically recorded as an ebike ride). And therefore counts the highest burn.

Apple Watch - Second best. More accurate because it has a heart rate monitor (and it's good, I've compared live to others). However the calculation for an "Outside bike ride" takes GPS into account as well and does a best guess. Still out by a factor of more than 2 however.

Mission Control - the only app that knows for sure how much effort I put in and how much the bike put in (which you can live display in the app, useful). My back of an envelope calculation whilst I'm riding, comparing my effort & motor effort says I'm putting in about 30% of the work. Which also tallies up if you look at the Strava app calorie count Vs the mission control calorie count.


What does all this mean?

If you are calorie counting to lose weight (I am, I am trying to lose 15KG) Then YOU MUST LOOK AT YOUR SOURCES CLOSELY. Because the difference between the high and the low counts is enough to make me put on weight, not lose it.

Can anyone pick holes in my logic? Please do!

How am I recording everything?
I am using the Lose it! app to record all my food
I am recording rides on my levo ONLY with the mission control app, which uploads to Strava, which uploads to the Apple Health app
Lose it! gives me a total calorie budget for the day that meets my goal of a 1,100 calorie deficit. This is worked out based on my daily burn for existing PLUS my exercise burn MINUS my total calorific intake.

I think I now have an accurate system. However it was not simple or easy to work out. I can't imagine most people being able to do this properly.

Use mission control or strava for miles covered and MPH but use your apple watch on an "indoor bike ride" for the calorie count - this way the watch will only compute calories on your heart rate (over the time you are exercising) and not the distance covered (like an outside road setting would)...

Hope that makes sense?

 

[npatrix]

Apple Watch is most likely the more accurate, reads your real HR... Mission control uses an algorithm (combining: age, weight, power, etc) just not taking into account how fit you are.

 

[Tetsugaku]

I don't think a heart rate monitor can be more accurate than a power meter because the meter measures true input, unlike a monitor which would mature less if you are healthier (and therefore not trying so hard but burning the same calories)

 

[Carlos Muralhas]

I actually believe that the burned calories are mostly related to heart rate values because that is showing the effort that our body is putting out. eBike or not eBike the amount of effort you put out is shown on our heart rate. This in fact is even true when you are not doing exercise because people that normally have high metabolic functions are constantly burning more calories than people that have lower metabolic functions.

 

[Tetsugaku]

A power meter measures foot to pedal effort though, in KW, which is directly convertible to calories (body inefficiencies aside...)

 

[Stumpy]

But isn't it also true that when riding, especially MTB, you burn calories through other movements/exercise which wouldn't be captured in the foot to pedal measurement but would through heart rate....It's up to you ultimately

 

[Tetsugaku]

Ah now that's thrown me.... on balance I'd say yes, but, really the majority of the time I am sat on the seat moving my feet and nothing else.

 

[npatrix]

I actually believe that the burned calories are mostly related to heart rate values because that is showing the effort that our body is putting out. eBike or not eBike the amount of effort you put out is shown on our heart rate. This in fact is even true when you are not doing exercise because people that normally have high metabolic functions are constantly burning more calories than people that have lower metabolic functions.

Think you are right, HR is a better measure because is a function of effort, physical condition and VO2...

 

[Stumpy]

Ah now that's thrown me.... on balance I'd say yes, but, really the majority of the time I am sat on the seat moving my feet and nothing else.

You'd be surprised, I know after a good trail ride my arms ache and my core has had a good workout!

 

[Tetsugaku]

You'd be surprised, I know after a good trail ride my arms ache and my core has had a good workout!

sadly 95% of my riding is the flat as a pancake run from Brighton to Worthing!

 

[Stumpy]

sadly 95% of my riding is the flat as a pancake run from Brighton to Worthing!

But good views on the way! Nice part of the world....

 

[Tetsugaku]

As long as it's not blowing a gale (often...) it really is a great run. 55m each way, almost every day. The drive would take 45m and leaves me in a bad mood every time!

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

As long as it's not blowing a gale (often...) it really is a great run. 55m each way, almost every day. The drive would take 45m and leaves me in a bad mood every time!

You must have clocked up some serious mileage now?

 

[Tetsugaku]

You must have clocked up some serious mileage now?

250k per week give or take!

 

[Tetsugaku]

So I recorded via the watch - indoor cycle - and from the Specialized App, into strava and then into the Health App.

Indoor Cycle - 533calories
Starava - 346 calories

That's quite the difference! Obviously I'd rather take the higher one but really I want the real one grrrr

 

[Stumpy]

Just my personal opinion but I'd say the apple watch was more accurate as it's taken a calculation of your personal data and heart rate to calculate the calories burned. Strava has just used GPS to provide a best guess with no other factors taken into account...

 

[Tetsugaku]

Ah I wouldn't trust Strava on it's own with an electric bike, I tried it once and it said 1,200!

With the Specialized app, it connects to strava and provides distance and Wh, in this case 229.0. Strava then converts it into a work out with calories, this time 346 and then Strava feeds that to Apple Health as a workout.

 

[Stumpy]

Sorry, yes, I misread (or didn't read) your previous message.... So, to restate my response....

No idea!

 

[mark.ai]

Just throwing a thought out here that I had earlier! Watt-hours (Wh) is a unit of energy and so is calories (kcal) … and after checking some online converters it seems that 500Wh = 430kcal.

So if you go for an e-bike ride and use an entire 500Wh battery then I assume the maximum number of calories you would save riding the e-bike compared to a normal bike is 430 calories. If you only use half the battery then it is 215 calories etc.

Maybe need to reduce that based on the efficiency of the motor? This link suggests electric motors are on average 85-90% efficient.

 

[Donnie797]

Sorry, but he calories the rider has burned or saved on a ride have nothing to do with how many Wh the motor has consumed off the battery. You can ride faster than 25 km/h, you can "work" on the bike (move, weight-shift, jump, etc.), you can change motor assist levels, then there's the battery temperature, weather, wind, bike weight, wheelsize, tyres, tyre-pressure, flexible motor efficiency, different motors & software, theres so much variables that have an effect on the energy consumption (of the rider, or the battery), it won't work well to compare this.

I have a garmin watch (fenix 3 hr) and a cheststrap for measuring the heart rate - the garmin also knows my age, size, weight, etc... so i guess the burnt calories it shows are a reasonable indicator. It does make a difference if i ride a non-e bike or an e-bike, since this won't change these parameters. If i work less on an e-bike because of the assist, my heart rate will be lower, so lower calory consumption. If i work harder on the downhill with the ebike cause it's heavier, my heart rate will go up.
If the apple watch is measuring an exact hart rate, it should do the job of calculating your burnt calories. Why do you think it doesn't work so well @Tetsugaku ? Is it showing the same calories burnt if you ride with or without assist?

Adding a power meter is surely a good thing, but is the watts measured really directly connected to the calories burnt? I'm not sure (don't have a power meter), but isn't it different if two people do have the same watt measurement on a power meter, but do have different size, weight, strength and fitness level? If i think of my 50kg wife giving full power to output 250 watts (just guessing a number here, i have no clue), and me (100kg) outputting the same amount of watts... the question is, would we burn the same amount of calories for this or is there an "efficiecy factor" of the different bodies, that has to be added to the equation?

 

[mark.ai]

I agree with everything you say there Donnie! The number of calories burned by the rider just depends on how hard the rider is working - all the motor is doing is letting you go faster than if the motor was off.

If you could repeat exactly the same ride, going at exactly the same speed at all times (which would be hard to measure!), once with the motor on and once with the motor off - only then could you say that the difference in calories burned by the rider on the two rides was due to the energy provided by the battery.

What I find interesting though is how low the amount of energy in the battery actually is And that's assuming you use up a whole battery. For instance with a ride of a few hours I'd guess a rider might burn in the region of 2000 calories. Compared to 400 calories used by the battery - so just a small percent of the energy the rider is burning! (Estimating calories burned from here: Calories Burned Cycling or Riding a Stationary Bike)