How much shock do you really need?

[Semmelrocc]

I'm trying to break loose a fundamental discussion here. My Levo SL is not only my first ebike, but also my first fully. After 3 years and more than 11.000 km on all kinds of grounds including countless bikepark rides and gnarly alpine trails, I had plenty opportunities to replace parts and upgrade my bike to my likings. Replacing my original Fox 34 Rhythm with a RockShox Lyrik Select Plus (Charger 3 damper) was a noticeable improvement.
Contrary to that, the original Fox Float DPS shock on the rear was never a source of complaint and I never had the impression of reaching its limits (as opposed to the forks).

So when the Fox shocks needed servicing this summer, I was looking for a cheap interims solution and purchased a slightly used RockShox Deluxe Select (OEM factory tuned for the Levo). Despite it being even more basic than the Fox, there is really nothing to complain about imo, which is why I'm still riding it and the Fox is still in a box waiting for its service.

So my point is: what's wrong with me? Am I doing something wrong or are these basic shocks better than their reputation? What's the point of riding something fancier with a piggyback or even a heavy coil shock? Like I said, I've never felt uncomfortable with my SL's rear suspension, even in really rough and fast terrain (the definition of which is probably relative to experience...). My frame size is XL, I'm ~95 kg geared up.

Really looking forward to your opinions and experiences!

 

[Weeksy]

Some people will tell you they need a £1000+ shock, some will tell you the opposite as per your story, the answer is, whatever you're happy with.

 

[Bndit]

Specialized have always had really excellent tunes on their shocks, even the basic ones. So you are not wrong

 

[KnollyBro]

If you don't notice any difference, why change anything. I have always liked the feel of a coil shock so I changed to an Ohlins on my Levo SL. All my bikes have coil shocks. YMMV.

 

[whitymon]

Fork upgrade you mentioned was definitely required for Alps. I would not be able to ride with joy anything under Fox36 160mm.
If you have money to burn ok, go try a vivid ultimate, air shock with coil feeling. Way better adjustment and let's be honest coil tunning is not easy for everyone.

 

[Arethustra]

Suspension is one of those things that, for a lot of people, is like electricity, if its working right, you don’t think about it as its just in the background doing its thing.

But when it’s not working right or if you’re a tinkerer (or gear head like me), then its a different story, one that sparks heated discussions, about what you need or what the best solution is for X, where there are far too many “experts” giving you their advice about what you have to do — I now categorize suspension in the same “do not talk about” class as politics and religion. lol.

 

[irie]

I'm trying to break loose a fundamental discussion here.

What are the "fundamentals" you wish to discuss?

 

[KnollyBro]

Suspension is one of those things that, for a lot of people, is like electricity, if its working right, you don’t think about it as its just in the background doing its thing.

But when it’s not working right or if you’re a tinkerer (or gear head like me), then its a different story, one that sparks heated discussions, about what you need or what the best solution is for X, where there are far too many “experts” giving you their advice about what you have to do — I now categorize suspension in the same “do not talk about” class as politics and religion. lol.

But if the OP wants to learn about the fundamentals of shocks and already noticed that the Fox 34 is insufficient on most bikes the do any sort of down hill trail, it's worth a discussion to learn the basics of what the settings can do on your suspension. Agreed that many riders leave them in their suspension in the stock settings and adapt their riding but if you are paying that much for a bike, why not get the most out of it?

 

[Arethustra]

But if the OP wants to learn about the fundamentals of shocks and already noticed that the Fox 34 is insufficient on most bikes the do any sort of down hill trail, it's worth a discussion to learn the basics of what the settings can do on your suspension. Agreed that many riders leave them in their suspension in the stock settings and adapt their riding but if you are paying that much for a bike, why not get the most out of it?

That's fair, but what I was trying to get at was the "what's wrong with me?" question, and my point was that there's nothing wrong if you don't think there is...yet a lot of folks are going to chime in with a "you need this" or "you need that" and then go on and on vigorously defending their choice like it's their favorite football team when really, it's all subjective and what you need is very personal and rider/terrain dependant up to a point - if you're bottoming out or going OTB on every drop/jump then it's less subjective and more of a WTF sort of a situation.

Personally, I get it. I've spent a ton of time trying to unravel the mysteries of the suspension universe and have learned a lot, but it's also clear to me that I have a lot more to learn but would be happy to share what I have found to be true. YMMV.

 

[Weeksy]

Suspension is one of those things that, for a lot of people, is like electricity, if its working right, you don’t think about it as its just in the background doing its thing.

But when it’s not working right or if you’re a tinkerer (or gear head like me), then its a different story, one that sparks heated discussions, about what you need or what the best solution is for X, where there are far too many “experts” giving you their advice about what you have to do — I now categorize suspension in the same “do not talk about” class as politics and religion. lol.

I get mine done with data acquisition/ telemetry to remove any 'maybe if'

 

[Arethustra]

I used a Shockwiz for a time, but I still found that there was a good amount of tweaking by feel that had to be done after it got you in the neighborhood. Even with a custom tune from Vorsprung on my Telum, I still find myself reaching out to Steve to get advice on how to tweak the tune for all the different conditions I ride. Even then, there are a couple of different setups you need to check to ensure whether the solution is to add 1-2 clicks (towards open) of LSC & Rebound or to add a click more (towards closed) on the HSC to smooth out a harsh feeling on the section with high-speed rock slab washboard with drops and potholes.

But that's my journey.

I now believe that perfection in suspension setup is all an illusion- instead, I've found that it's a game of compromise and balance. And then the buggers come out with something new that you want to try, and then the cycle starts all over again. HAHAHAHA.

 

[Dax]

Some basic shocks are quite good, my KSL has a float X, it works brilliantly and just gets the job done. I’ve not felt the need to change it.

Cheaper stuff like the dps…you’d probably notice upgrading. I swapped from a dps to a ccdba and it was night and day grip/comfort improvement

 

[Arethustra]

That's true, also don't get hung up on buying a certain brand or the top-tier shock/fork - I did a lot of research on a replacement shock for my Santa Cruz Blur XC bike, and it turned out that the best one for what I wanted was a Manitou (which I had never used)... every rider that described a feeling like I was experiencing said it smoothed out the ride like what I was looking for, and they were right - night and day difference between it and the stock Fox Factory shock - so I ended up going with a cheaper shock that did what I wanted and the fancy Kashima coated Fox is sitting in a box.

 

[KnollyBro]

That's fair, but what I was trying to get at was the "what's wrong with me?" question, and my point was that there's nothing wrong if you don't think there is...yet a lot of folks are going to chime in with a "you need this" or "you need that" and then about vigorously defending their choice like it's their favorite football team when really, it's all subjective and what you need is very personal and rider/terrain dependant up to a point - if you're bottoming out or going OTB on every drop/jump then it's less subjective and more of a WTF sort of a situation.

Personally, I get it. I've spent a ton of time trying to unravel the mysteries of the suspension universe and have learned a lot, but it's also clear to me that I have a lot more to learn but would be happy to share what I have found to be true. YMMV.

Agreed. I think that people will always try to say what they use is the best but do they really understand why? Can they make changes to accommodate different terrain and actually notice? Most riders set sag once and forget about it not realizing that it is and air system and is affected by different altitude and does lose pressure over time.

 

[HandsomeDanNZ]

When it comes to forks, I have had a few different ones and to be honest been pretty happy with most of them.
Most recently (over the last 5-6 years), I went from a Rockshox Pike RCT3 to a Fox 36 Factory to a Marzocchi Bomber Z1.
To be honest, I have barely noticed the difference between the three - all have been 160mm (Fox Factory was 170mm, but I rarely got all of the travel out of it), with all of them being fairly plush and tunable to my liking.
It's only when I have had less robust forks (Fox 32, Suntour XCR 32 etc) that I have noticed any difference and that's more to do with the lack of support under a heavy rider (me).

 

[irie]

When it comes to forks, I have had a few different ones and to be honest been pretty happy with most of them.
Most recently (over the last 5-6 years), I went from a Rockshox Pike RCT3 to a Fox 36 Factory to a Marzocchi Bomber Z1.
To be honest, I have barely noticed the difference between the three - all have been 160mm (Fox Factory was 170mm, but I rarely got all of the travel out of it), with all of them being fairly plush and tunable to my liking.
It's only when I have had less robust forks (Fox 32, Suntour XCR 32 etc) that I have noticed any difference and that's more to do with the lack of support under a heavy rider (me).

Vaguely (?) interesting implied point there - wonder what the target rider+bike weights forks and shocks are designed around?

 

[Weeksy]

I now believe that perfection in suspension setup is all an illusion- instead, I've found that it's a game of compromise and balance. And then the buggers come out with something new that you want to try, and then the cycle starts all over again. HAHAHAHA.

Of course it is, because on section 5-10km of a ride you're on XC flat/hills, then 2 mins later you're into a root garden, then rocks, then jumps, then Fireroads... you can't ever expect a suspension to be 100% perfect on everything.

 

[Semmelrocc]

Well thank you for all your comments and answers so far. So I'll happily keep riding my "low end" rear shock, and maybe I'll get my hands on something fancier one day for some back-to-back comparisons. But my verdict so far is that it's more important to have good front suspension.

 

[Mikerb]

It has always seemed to me that the shock is far easier to set up than the fork. I have Fox x performance elite on both bikes and have previously used Fox x2 Factory and Fox DPS on previous bikes. All performed well. Essentially all they need to achieve is to keep the back wheel tracking the ground especially when both rider and bike weight are being pushed forward on descents. Obviously it also needs to not to bottom out too easily. Perhaps the 3rd requirement is for it feel balanced with the fork keeping the bike stable front to back. I think it was a recent Rob video...can't remember the bike.....that showed what happens when the shock is clearly not doing its job. The rear wheel was jumping around like a kangaroo on descents!

 

[steve_sordy]

Maybe @Semmelrocc has got a big squashy bum and wouldn't notice a rough trail?

 

[Arethustra]

Well thank you for all your comments and answers so far. So I'll happily keep riding my "low end" rear shock, and maybe I'll get my hands on something fancier one day for some back-to-back comparisons. But my verdict so far is that it's more important to have good front suspension.

You do you! Happy to talk more about forks as they’re more fun to tinker with than rear shocks.

Personally, I’ve been playing with pushing the limits on experimenting with my Zebs air shock and damper to achieve as much of a coil feel as possible while working on actually converting a new Fox 38 to a coil with a Smashpot conversion. Tinkering is a bit of a hobby for me so playing around with my suspension is a fun way (but somewhat expensive) to occupy the down days.

Lately, I’ve been working to actually write down what I’m doing in a sort of “layman's” guide (i.e., not written from a suspensions nerds point of view) to setting up and tuning suspension. I started on that after I was having issues wrapping my head around setup and found it easier to write down some of what I was reading a re-write so that it worked for my brain. Sad thing is, there is so much info out there but a lot of it isn’t written well and some of it just flat out doesn’t make sense to because I don’t have the engineering background required.

 

[Arethustra]

I'm trying to break loose a fundamental discussion here. My Levo SL is not only my first ebike, but also my first fully. After 3 years and more than 11.000 km on all kinds of grounds including countless bikepark rides and gnarly alpine trails, I had plenty opportunities to replace parts and upgrade my bike to my likings. Replacing my original Fox 34 Rhythm with a RockShox Lyrik Select Plus (Charger 3 damper) was a noticeable improvement.
Contrary to that, the original Fox Float DPS shock on the rear was never a source of complaint and I never had the impression of reaching its limits (as opposed to the forks).

So when the Fox shocks needed servicing this summer, I was looking for a cheap interims solution and purchased a slightly used RockShox Deluxe Select (OEM factory tuned for the Levo). Despite it being even more basic than the Fox, there is really nothing to complain about imo, which is why I'm still riding it and the Fox is still in a box waiting for its service.

So my point is: what's wrong with me? Am I doing something wrong or are these basic shocks better than their reputation? What's the point of riding something fancier with a piggyback or even a heavy coil shock? Like I said, I've never felt uncomfortable with my SL's rear suspension, even in really rough and fast terrain (the definition of which is probably relative to experience...). My frame size is XL, I'm ~95 kg geared up.

Really looking forward to your opinions and experiences!

So, going back to your original post -I did the same thing with the Fox Rhythm on my Blur but I went with an older model Reba that my friend had taken off a bike on day-1 to swap in a Fox. I upgraded the damper and threw in a MRP and it was a great shock and felt better than the new Sids did.

Now on the Lyric, if you like the 3.0 damper, I’d see if you can do the upgrade kit to the Charger 3.1 damper. Its $75 dollars and was a nice update to the Charger 3 damper my Zeb came with. Not a must-do thing but it did give me more range to play with as I was running my Zeb with HSC and LSC wide open; now I'm more towards the middle of the range.

With the RockShox rear I used the SDLX Ultimate and found that I liked it just fine out of the box but it turned into a really amazing shock when I added the Meg Neg king can to it as it really gave it the "squish" I was looking for.

Basically what I'm saying is if you feel good about the setup keep it and tinker with it to expand its capabilities or just roll with what you have and do the old "don't fix what ain't broke."

 

[HandsomeDanNZ]

All of this has reminded me. I have no idea what any of my current settings are (including pressure) on my forks and shock - and right now they feel great. I know I’m going to have to top them off at some stage, so I should at least check my pressures.

 

[KnollyBro]

I like to learn how things work as well but fund it challenging to try out incremental setting adjustments on the trails I ride as it can be a lot of work to push back up a steep trail after adjusting a few clicks of HSC +/- to see if it felt any better! I do however make slight changes to my fork setting depending on the trails and speed I am riding but adjusting the rebound on a KSL is just dam difficult so it basically sits where it is, on the slow side on my Ohlins Coil. I do make more adjustments on my Fox 180 Factory fork and DHX2 Shock as they are more accessible but can still be overwhelming with the subtleties of when to add/reduce a click or two of HSC vs HSR. I have a Lufkappa in my Fox fork. There was a noticeable difference in midstroke support.

 

[Arethustra]

I hear you on the sessioning trails being a PITA...I pretty much only ride my Crestline now so I just putter back up the hill and give it another go so that I can fiddle with the dials if I think I can make things better (not that I do it much anyway)...

Now on my Blur XC bike it's a totally different story...it's more like a quick internal dialog as I go over the gnarly bits where I'm saying to myself, "well that felt a bit abusive but that shite isn't gonna get any better when you only slightly more travel than a hardtail...moving on."

Honestly, there's just no desire to try and tune that suspension further, it's about as good as it's going to get and I know that because I rode a lot of the same trails on both bikes (which in retrospect is not all that smart).

For the fork, I thought about going with a Luftkappe but ended up going with a DSD Runt first, and that was pretty good upgrade, but then I added a Secus into the mix just recently (fun experiment), and now the Zeb is flat-out amazing. You can play with the two pressures and get a really plush feel with near-perfect midstroke support and a tunable amount of progression in the final third. I need to take off the Runt to see who's responsible for what as there is some debate on how much of the improvement is the Runt vs. the Secus. I also added in the 3.1 Charger upgrade since it was so cheap.

I just recently replaced my SDLX Ultimate (right after I got the Meg Neg dialed in) with the new Telum coil so I'm still adjusting to that a little but the tune that they setup for me was pretty spot so it was just mount and go which was really nice - no muss, no fuss. Just reading about all of the subtleties with tuning that thing is overwhelming.

 

[Rando_12345]

Disclaimer: Despite racing DH and then enduro for 12 years, I don't really have a good "feel" for suspension. I know what the knobs do, I roughly know what the fast guys setups are, but a few clicks one way or the other doesn't really impact my ride.

That said: if like me, you are an average weight, average size, average speed, then good news, basic suspension will be fine for you.

On the other hand, I am currently running a coil shock made/prepared for my weight/bike/speed/style, it doesn't fundamentally change the ride of the bike, it just happens to be 1-2s faster per minute down the hill. Typically, fast setups are not necessarily comfortable, you have to decide which is more important to you!

 

[michael.kozera]

The biggest issue I see with most ebikes is it's almost always better to be over shocked. Then under shocked.

With regular mtb there is such a thing as having too much or too little travel.

But with a motor, generally speaking, the more the better, and this has been well known in the ebike community for well over a decade now.

My trail ebike has 170/180mm of travel. My road ebike has 130/140mm of travel.
And my mt-ebike has 200/230mm of travel.


The extra weight and loss of efficiency is easily overcome with using slightly more battery.

 

[John Beedham]

Some people will tell you they need a £1000+ shock, some will tell you the opposite as per your story, the answer is, whatever you're happy with.

…exactly

 

[SP SUSPENSION]

We are a suspension tuning center, and our philosophy is "It is YOUR feel, Not anyone elses or what I think you should have". That being said, a basic shock or fork (if a somewhat decent fork) that is properly setup is better than the highest end stuff that is set up incorrect. We have many requests to "overshock" a bike, and first we like to see if/how we can make what is there better. Adding dials, clickers, coatings and bling does nothing but cost more and look cool if not set proper. If you are happy with what you have- enjoy the hell out of it and spend your money on a skills clinic.

 

[timo2824]

That's fair, but what I was trying to get at was the "what's wrong with me?" question, and my point was that there's nothing wrong if you don't think there is...yet a lot of folks are going to chime in with a "you need this" or "you need that" and then go on and on vigorously defending their choice like it's their favorite football team when really, it's all subjective and what you need is very personal and rider/terrain dependant up to a point - if you're bottoming out or going OTB on every drop/jump then it's less subjective and more of a WTF sort of a situation.

Personally, I get it. I've spent a ton of time trying to unravel the mysteries of the suspension universe and have learned a lot, but it's also clear to me that I have a lot more to learn but would be happy to share what I have found to be true. YMMV.

Some people are complainers and will always find something to bitch about. Personally, 160mm seems to be good enough for me. I always had xc and light trail bikes before and jumping to a fox 38mm with 160mm travel I'm satisfied for what I ride.