How much assistance is 55Nm?

[lightning]

Why are you bothering?

Because it would be great to have someone to go out on ebike rides with, rather than going out on my own all the time!

 

[flash]

I stand corrected, thank you.

Edit: Interesting. If you're capped at 250/300 watts and the motor legitimately puts out 55Nm of torque, you're only going to be able to access that maximum torque value for perhaps a fraction of a second while starting off from a start or stall. At pedaling speeds you might be getting only ~30Nm from the motor at best.

Where are you getting your rotational speeds from? It's not cadence. 55nM is possible if the gearing in the motor gets the rotational speeds required.

Having said that, I have said several times including comparing to the Levo SL that the Fazua motor appears to be somewhere between a Levo SL and Rise. So it *feels* like around 45nM.

Gordon

 

[Gyre]

Where are you getting your rotational speeds from? It's not cadence. 55nM is possible if the gearing in the motor gets the rotational speeds required.

The torque rating of an eMTB drive unit wouldn't make much sense as a measure of performance anywhere but the drive output shaft (after whatever internal gear reduction occurs). So yes, cadence would be applicable.

If you're suggesting that the motor has an accessible 55Nm of torque at the armature shaft at a normal cadence, then torque ratings would be pointless to end users without publishing the internal drive ratio, and the motor would need internal gear *multiplication* to avoid blowing past the 250/300w power limits at that cadence. I doubt that's what's going on.

 

[flash]

Well, since the three full power motors that describe 85nM (Yamaha, Shimano and Bosch) have obviously different *actual* torque differences, I'd say for sure they're not giving measurements off the pedal shaft. There's also significant software differences as to how and when that torque and power are applied.

I don't think they're providing figures end users can rely on, absolutely.

Gordon

 

[CjP]

My friend is looking at a Lapierre lightweight ebike with the Fazua Evation motor.
He's worried that the maximum 55Nm assist won't be enough, but l never use BOOST on my Kona (E8000) so he should be alright with it.
How much assistance is 55Nm. ls it enough to keep up with a regular ebike set to TRAIL?

Yes 55nm regardless of actual output will be similar to a FF on Trail. Period.
The lower weight of the bike however will far outweigh the lack of power. Anyone who says different should go back to riding motobikes.

 

[flash]

Yes 55nm regardless of actual output will be similar to a FF on Trail. Period.
The lower weight of the bike however will far outweigh the lack of power. Anyone who says different should go back to riding motobikes.

As someone who owns a Fazua bike (two actually) and an E8000 bike the Evation motor just can't keep up with my Merida set to trail. Not even close. Even with the weight the E8000 easily out climbs it.

The bikes don't feel remotely the same, either.

Gordon

 

[Olof Bike Adventures]

To chime in on the discussion. Have ridden the Fazua (Trek E-Caliber), EP8, EP8 RS, Bosch (several models and generations), SL 1.1 e t c.

I really like the characteristics of the Fazua motor, but it is nowhere near as powerful as any full- or half powered motors. Rode it back-to-back with a Bosch CX 2nd gen (70NM?) and Rocket mode on the Fazua was weaker than the trail mode (2nd of 4) on that old Bosch.

The Fazua could be close to the SL 1.1 (spesh turbo levo sl). Have not back-to-back tested those two though, only on different occasions.

As another reference I back-to-back tested the EP8 (Merida e-ONE SIXTY) and the EP8 RS (Rise M10) yesterday up a slalom hill. Trail mode (3/4) on the EP8 was about as powerful as Boost (4/4) on the EP8 RS. No exact science, but somewhere around there.

Point is, the EP8 RS at 60 Nm feels more than twice as powerful as the Fazua at 55 Nm. So I am just not sure the claimed power is there.

 

[CjP]

Wow that’s shit!

 

[Gyre]

Well, since the three full power motors that describe 85nM (Yamaha, Shimano and Bosch) have obviously different *actual* torque differences, I'd say for sure they're not giving measurements off the pedal shaft.

I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that the different brands have "obviously different *actual* torque differences", but differences in real-world performance climbing a hill aren't sufficient to justify the conclusion that manufacturers must measure torque at the armature shaft. There are plenty of alternative explanations for the performance discrepancy: Deviation in measuring equipment or measuring practices (e.g. peak vs sustained figures), differences in the power (watt) cap, plain old fudging by marketing or engineering leadership, or perhaps not all the riders were actually getting 100% torque out of the profile they were testing on.

 

[lightning]

Well, l am now recommending to my friend that he buys a full power ebike

l've found a shop selling a NOS 2020 Kona Remote E160 (Shimano E8000) at U.K. £4,500 which is a £1,200 (over $1,600) discount.
He wants to try mine, so there is hope, so long as the bikes don't sell out, they've got more than one.

 

[flash]

I'm not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that the different brands have "obviously different *actual* torque differences", but differences in real-world performance climbing a hill aren't sufficient to justify the conclusion that manufacturers must measure torque at the armature shaft. There are plenty of alternative explanations for the performance discrepancy: Deviation in measuring equipment or measuring practices (e.g. peak vs sustained figures), differences in the power (watt) cap, plain old fudging by marketing or engineering leadership, or perhaps not all the riders were actually getting 100% torque out of the profile they were testing on.

I never said they were measured at the armature shaft. Not once. Just that they're not measuring equally. therefor you can't really compare them on published numbers alone.

I arrived at the conclusion after riding (and owning) several different motors and seeing multiple comparisons on-line that all seem to say exactly the same thing. Including Rob's comparison of the motors here.

Gordon

 

[Gyre]

I never said they were measured at the armature shaft. Not once.

True, you said "for sure not giving measurements off the 'pedal shaft'". Since measuring torque at any intermediate shaft would be completely irrational, that leaves only one possible alternative.

Just that they're not measuring equally. therefor you can't really compare them on published numbers alone.

The published numbers certainly require a grain of salt, but they're at least useful in that an EP8 rider will generally be able to ride together with their 85Nm peers on Bosch or Yamaha.

I arrived at the conclusion after riding (and owning) several different motors and seeing multiple comparisons on-line that all seem to say exactly the same thing. Including Rob's comparison of the motors here.

Which goes right back to my point that those real-world differences have a variety of possible explanations besides measuring torque prior to internal gearing.

Well, l am now recommending to my friend that he buys a full power ebike

l've found a shop selling a NOS 2020 Kona Remote E160 (Shimano E8000) at U.K. £4,500 which is a £1,200 (over $1,600) discount.
He wants to try mine, so there is hope, so long as the bikes don't sell out, they've got more than one.

Best of luck with your friend. Going FF would certainly simplify things.

 

[flash]

True, you said "for sure not giving measurements off the 'pedal shaft'". Since measuring torque at any intermediate shaft would be completely irrational, that leaves only one possible alternative.

I suspect that, at least in some cases nM figures are calculated, not measured. We also don't know whether the quoted figures are sustainable or a theoretical peak under very specific conditions or whether they are permitted or software limited.

Certainly jumping on a Bosch or Yamaha bike after an EP8 the difference is stark.

Gordon

 

[lightning]

l usually use "trail" on my E8000
However
My last ride was done in done in "eco" set to high which is a maximum of 35Nm, to see how l got on.
lt was fine, still great fun just not quite as fast on the hills.

 

[Tonybro]

S
He sounds like a tight arse ?

That's how he got to be a millionaire!

 

[lightning]

Well, l went round yesterday on my Kona and he had a go on it (he's never actually ridden an ebike)

One ride is all it takes.

Pretty much as soon as l left his house he's gone online and bought a 2022 Cube Stereo Hybrid 140 HPC Race.

It's due to be delivered next week, so hopefully we'll get some rides in soon.

 

[MrSimmo]

One ride is all it takes.

Same thing happened to 4 of my friends, one ride on my emtb and they went out straight away to buy their own ?

Glad you got it sorted.

Because it would be great to have someone to go out on ebike rides with, rather than going out on my own all the time!

Depends where you live but most people on here are usually up for a bike ride. Might be worth a group ride at some point, theres one happening on Sunday in the Surrey Alps but not sure if you're local/in the UK etc ?

 

[lightning]

l live near to New Mills in Derbyshire so am well out of your area unfortunately.