Unanswered How Does Shimano Know If You've Derestricted Your Bike?

[pollywaffle]

I can see how other manufacturers could tell because they have gps in their units and I suppose if Shimano printed a graph of usage they could tell (mainly for someone who is always derestricted and flogging their bike all the time). I frequently switch from restricted to derestricted.

I am wondering if anybody actually knows how they know?

 

[RocketMagnet]

During start up it checks for and pings the sensor. So send a series of pings at a set frequency and check the frequency back if it's not linear to the send then change a register to 1 that it's derestricted or faulty.

This is so simple that I'd be very surprised if the rumours I've heard that they can tell if you've added a rate box into the loop at any time then removed it are not true.

Unplug the sensor and start it up will be a simple test to see if it definitely pings the sensor. If it doesn't throw an error then you know it's not pinging it and therefore they are unlikely to be able to tell your altering the pulse frequency.
If it does throw a sensor error then you know they are pinging it and it's easy to extrapolate a rate check also form this and hence flag it's been derestricted... so simple that it's sounds plausible to me.

Clearly they don't/won't brick the motor as it's technically legal to derestrict on private land.

One issue with derestricting is if you sell on the bike the total Mileage will be displaying low.

My personal opinion on derestricting or increasing the speed limit is there is a valid argument on the road and commuter bikes.. but on proper EMTB I just don't see the need, if your not already going 2X+ quicker on steep climbs vs your normal bike your doing something wrong.

 

[pollywaffle]

wow, i totally forgot about this thread.

the main benefit with my bike derestiction is in the commute home from trails (mainly home because i ride to the tracks with motor off) and i only sit on 30-35kph anyway

BUT it is also helpful on a few trails where you come down a steep descent and need to get on the pedals for a short up hill. the restriction used to kick in and throw all my weight forward which is really dangerous!

 

[Gary]

The advantage of the bad ass box is that you don't have to open the motor casing etc, so no visible evidence that it has been derestricted if taken in to a dealer and the BAB has been removed. The only tell tale sign is if they can can somehow correlate the milage with the wear.

Chips leave no visible evidence once removed either.
it's impossible to correlate wear with mileage.
too many variables. from rider weight/fitness to terrain/gradients ridden to motor mode usage.

All the BAB or chips do is half number of signals output from the speed sensor to the motor fooling the motor into thinking the bike is travelling at half the speed it really is.
Even if there were some sort of record of motor function stored and available to be accessed by plugging it into diagnostics software. All that would be altered is that the bike would show as being ridden at half the speed it really was.

As Karsten pointed out. Derestriction doesn't necessarily cause more wear. infact it possibly causes less wear as it'll no longer cut in and out at the region restriction limit.

Pedalling the Steps motor at higher cadences (110rpm+) motor assistance starts to peter out. Therefore with most common emtb gearing (top gear of 34x11) assistance will start to peter out before reaching the derestricted limit.

 

[Doomanic]

What utter rubbish! There are far too many variables to use battery usage as a benchmark.

I can get 30+ miles and 3k ft of climbing out of my battery if I baby it and I can flatten it in under 10 miles and 3k ft if I Turbo all the climbs.

I’ve never derestricted my bike.

 

[Doomanic]

How about you start but not quoting here say as fact then?

 

[Doomanic]

speak to people how you would like to spoken too

???

 

[dirt huffer]

The motor isn’t the issue here. The battery and wiring will get drawn on much more , even at low pressure on the pedals over the speed limit than initial takeoff. The motors are easily capable of the derestriction its the other components that don’t like it.

I've actually hit a heat limiter riding fully in boost mode, accelerating hard and cruising around at 26-28mph for about 1/2 hour. It's nice to have a heat limiter so that you don't wreck things. I'm not too worried but YRMV. I dont advocate this but if it breaks, whatever.

 

[khorn]

They can tell at the dealer if the battery has been charged too many times for the kilometres the bike has travelled, the Speedo/odometer will show half of the speed you are actually travelling if derestricted ... So let's say if you get 50km from 1 fully charged battery, then after 200 kms you should have done 4 complete charging cycles, but if your odometer is only showing half of the distance travelled because the bike is derestricted the battery would of been through 8 complete charging cycles to travel 200 kms...... So to shimano that is a red flag.... I hope this makes sense, usually I'm asking the questions not answering them!!

Apart from what Doom already said there is one more very important fact one have to keep in mind; THEY have to PROVE that you have done something wrong, not the other way around where you have to prove that you are innocent. The steep hills in turbo is a very legitimate explanation or what about “I have 2 batteries”....?

If that were taken to court they would loose the case BIG time.

The only solid proof I see is a system with built in GPS data logging speed versus assistance. The day EMTBs comes with build in GPS I would be seriously concerned, not before.

Btw my bike is not derestricted, it hurts plenty when I dismount at 25 kmh.

Karsten

 

[R120]

Apart from what Doom already said there is one more very important fact one have to keep in mind; THEY have to PROVE that you have done something wrong, not the other way around where you have to prove that you are innocent. The steep hills in turbo is a very legitimate explanation or what about “I have 2 batteries”....?

If that were taken to court they would loose the case BIG time.

The only solid proof I see is a system with built in GPS data logging speed versus assistance. The day EMTBs comes with build in GPS I would be seriously concerned, not before.

Btw my bike is not derestricted, it hurts plenty when I dismount at 25 kmh.

Karsten

Both of you are spot on - my LBS told me the only way is to correlate battery use with mileage, but of course the fact you may have multiple batteries means this doesn't hold up, unless you have a Focus or Norco etc where you cant remove the battery

 

[Slowroller]

You're also assuming that some bike company, who already has your money, is going to be concerned about your charge cycles. As if they are going to pay staff to do such things? Not.

 

[pollywaffle]

Surely one day some rich dude will test this in the courts somewhere eventually. It's not illegal to derestrict on private land plus there are sometimes legitimate reasons to derestrict, like big jumps with short run ins.

 

[dirt huffer]

Does derestricting actually void the warranty if it's a Badassbox? It would be lame... I thought i heard Shimano tested their motors and batteries without any restriction and their e9000 system can handle much more than the 250watts that it's de-tuned down to.

 

[Jamsxr]

25km of fine for riding trails, it’s just a bit frustrating riding fire roads and towpaths to get to my local trails. I’m faster on my trail bike!

I personally think 30km would be perfect....

 

[HORSPWR]

They can get a quick idea by how many charge cycles to kms the bike has done and the battery stores complex information like load draw and discharge rate that can easily give you up. Also the wiring harness that can show signs of excess heat like melted plastic and burnt terminals. Most ebike wiring is only just good enough for standard operation. Deresticting is a recipe for failure eventually

Biggest load of assumed shit I've ever heard!
Charge cycles to kms?
What about the person who charges their battery after just 10ks or the person who charges it when it hits the last red bar?
One blokes bike could have 1000ks after 12 charges and the other could have 100 charges!!
De-restricting your speed limit doesn't create extra load, it provides you with assistance when it would have otherwise ceased to do so. Melted plastic and burnt terminals....bwahaha!!!

 

[HORSPWR]

25km of fine for riding trails, it’s just a bit frustrating riding fire roads and towpaths to get to my local trails. I’m faster on my trail bike!

I personally think 30km would be perfect....

If it was 30 I wouldn't have bothered with the badassbox, on my local trails without it, it was kicking in and out just enough past the 25kph limit to give me the shits.
By the way, mine is the Freeze so it freezes the speedo at 23kph so my total distance travelled on a ride only fractionally out because the majority of my ride above 23kph is minimal. The box just helps on those odd occasions.

 

[pollywaffle]

If it was 30 I wouldn't have bothered with the badassbox, on my local trails without it, it was kicking in and out just enough past the 25kph limit to give me the shits.
By the way, mine is the Freeze so it freezes the speedo at 23kph so my total distance travelled on a ride only fractionally out because the majority of my ride above 23kph is minimal. The box just helps on those odd occasions.

Agreed! I basically cruise at 30kph with my basassbox. For once the yanks have it right

 

[khorn]

Biggest load of assumed shit I've ever heard!
Charge cycles to kms?
What about the person who charges their battery after just 10ks or the person who charges it when it hits the last red bar?
One blokes bike could have 1000ks after 12 charges and the other could have 100 charges!!
De-restricting your speed limit doesn't create extra load, it provides you with assistance when it would have otherwise ceased to do so. Melted plastic and burnt terminals....bwahaha!!!

As a matter of fact he is right and you are wrong

The software calculates 1 charge cycle by accumulating the amount of charge you put onto your battery. An example, you have had 4 trips where the battery went down to 75% 4 times and every time you charge it back to 100%. Accumulated that gives 1 charge cycle in the control software.

Btw I would recommend that you try to communicate in a more respectful way.....

Karsten

 

[khorn]

As a matter of fact he is right and you are wrong

The software calculates 1 charge cycle by accumulating the amount of charge you put onto your battery. An example, you have had 4 trips where the battery went down to 75% 4 times and every time you charge it back to 100%. Accumulated that gives 1 charge cycle in the control software.

Btw I would recommend that you try to communicate in a more respectful way.....

Karsten

What “Drama queen” ?

First of all you don’t know how stuff work, yet you’re calling other members post for “shit”. A member that actually knows what is going on.....

Another keyboard warrior has entered the building....Good luck with that attitude!

Karsten

 

[HORSPWR]

What “Drama queen” ?

First of all you don’t know how stuff work, yet you’re calling other members post for “shit”. A member that actually knows what is going on.....

Another keyboard warrior has entered the building....Good luck with that attitude!

Karsten

Read his post mate!
Melted wires and burnt terminals is a method Shimano can tell that you have de-restricted the speed limiter, come on, if your as smart as you say you are then even you should be able to recognise the rubbish in that statement.

Also, I have the Freeze badassbox, 95% of my riding and charging and distance travelled is accurate. I spend very little time outside the 25kph limit but when I do it is very helpful. Pretty sure Shimano have zero way to tell that I have one attached.

There is no legislation in Australia that provides for fines or penalties for a bicycle that exceeds 25kph, normal road speed limits that apply to cars is the same for bicycles and I'm pretty sure many other countries will be the same.

There seems to be a group of people that are hell bent on protecting the 25kph limit and I ask why?

 

[valium64]

In truth, unfortunately, in many countries, especially in Europe and North America, there is a very precise legislation where it even reaches the confiscation of the vehicle and even up to 5000 euros fine, the reason is simple, the ebike does not pay taxes and insurance and therefore does not he wants them to replace scooters and mopeds. So many who look only to their own country and are afraid that breakouts can lead to economic limitations and impositions demonize this practice, or even more simply by not being able to selfishly want them to not be able to anyone else.

 

[R120]

As an update it would appear Shimano has done something in the last software update which restricts the ability to derestrict

badassbox-shimano-software-upgrade-warning.5572

Not sure if this applies to other devices

 

[HORSPWR]

As an update it would appear Shimano has done something in the last software update which restricts the ability to derestrict

badassbox-shimano-software-upgrade-warning.5572

Not sure if this applies to other devices

Not on mine buddy, my bike is two weeks old and my badassbox works awesome!

 

[HORSPWR]

In truth, unfortunately, in many countries, especially in Europe and North America, there is a very precise legislation where it even reaches the confiscation of the vehicle and even up to 5000 euros fine, the reason is simple, the ebike does not pay taxes and insurance and therefore does not he wants them to replace scooters and mopeds. So many who look only to their own country and are afraid that breakouts can lead to economic limitations and impositions demonize this practice, or even more simply by not being able to selfishly want them to not be able to anyone else.

What happens in these countries when a non ebike exceeds 25kph, bike confiscated and a 5000 euro fine. Haha, me thinks not!

 

[Max-E]

I think we're for sure going to see more stringent anti-tamper software/hardware as the onus is very much on manufacturers and suppliers to proactively block those trying to derestrict Ebikes.

 

[Doomanic]

In truth, unfortunately, in many countries, especially in Europe and North America, there is a very precise legislation where it even reaches the confiscation of the vehicle and even up to 5000 euros fine, the reason is simple, the ebike does not pay taxes and insurance and therefore does not he wants them to replace scooters and mopeds. So many who look only to their own country and are afraid that breakouts can lead to economic limitations and impositions demonize this practice, or even more simply by not being able to selfishly want them to not be able to anyone else.

What happens in these countries when a non ebike exceeds 25kph, bike confiscated and a 5000 euro fine. Haha, me thinks not!

Of course not, the regulations only apply to eBikes.

 

[HORSPWR]

Of course not, the regulations only apply to eBikes.

Ok, next question, what happens when an ebike that hasn’t been de restricted exceeds 25kph under rider power in these countries that can confiscate and fine?

 

[R120]

Nothing, it’s about the assistance not the speed.

This has been gone over in many threads, but my opinion is that the restriction should be based on power output and not speed.

 

[HORSPWR]

My lbs has changed my wheel circumference to 2000,now with my gps garmin, and my Samsung phone as confirmation the speed now cuts out at 29.8 kmh which is perfect! That extra 5kmh on fire trails makes all the difference,although now the bike odometer shows slightly less distance travelled then the gps does, so come on...which "know it all" is going to dispute my post and dedicate their life to destroying the credibility of my comment, surely I DON'T know what I'm talking about,and garmin and Samsung gps devices are wrong but your opinion is the only sure answer.
???

Good work, I didn’t think about changing the wheel circumference to trick the computer. What was the original circumference? Larger than 2000 or smaller? They just ride so much better with only that extra 5kph don’t they.