higher spec alum or lower carbon

[Alexnavyblue]

Hi guys.

Looking for some advice on first emtb purchase. Thinking about a trek rail 9.0 or 9.7. Alternatively an orbea fs h10 or I think its an h20 thats the slightly more expensive part alum/carbon frame.
My dilemma is, buy a higher spec alum or a lower spec carbon?
Thanks

 

[steve_sordy]

Unless weight is a concern for you then go for the alloy. A carbon frame may only save a kilo at the most, probably less . And maybe very little if the carbon fibre and the resin they use are low spec. Find out what the weight difference is before you buy. If your view is that CF is fragile, then you may get more peace of mind with alloy.

With alloy, there are fewer concerns with rocks pinging off the frame, clamping in workstands and on bike racks etc. Carbon fibre is extremely strong and stiff, but it doesn't do too well on point loads and crushing. It can be repaired and there are several companies that will do an excellent job. I don't know for certain, but I'll bet that the alloy frames are cheaper to repair.

However, have you seen the Santa Cruz video of their workshop guys trying to break a CF frame against the corner of a workbench and a concrete wall. They fail repeatedly as they urge each other on to greater and greater efforts. Finally it breaks, but not before an alloy frame would have been wrecked.

My first CF bike was a risk, a YT Capra. I was super careful with it at first, but after a few weeks I though "bollocks, just get on with it!" I have had two other CF bikes since then and I have stopped worrying. I use helicopter tape in all the usual places and a double layer on the underneath of the downtube. But that's it.

 

[Alexnavyblue]

Unless weight is a concern for you then go for the alloy. A carbon frame may only save a kilo at the most, probably less . And maybe very little if the carbon fibre and the resin they use are low spec. Find out what the weight difference is before you buy. If your view is that CF is fragile, then you may get more peace of mind with alloy.

With alloy, there are fewer concerns with rocks pinging off the frame, clamping in workstands and on bike racks etc. Carbon fibre is extremely strong and stiff, but it doesn't do too well on point loads and crushing. It can be repaired and there are several companies that will do an excellent job. I don't know for certain, but I'll bet that the alloy frames are cheaper to repair.

However, have you seen the Santa Cruz video of their workshop guys trying to break a CF frame against the corner of a workbench and a concrete wall. They fail repeatedly as they urge each other on to greater and greater efforts. Finally it breaks, but not before an alloy frame would have been wrecked.

My first CF bike was a risk, a YT Capra. I was super careful with it at first, but after a few weeks I though "bollocks, just get on with it!" I have had two other CF bikes since then and I have stopped worrying. I use helicopter tape in all the usual places and a double layer on the underneath of the downtube. But that's it.

Hi Steve,

Thanks a lot for talking the time to reply.
Tbh I never gave thought to bike racks/stands but that makes sense.
The difference in weight isn't that much anyway.
I like the thought of the higher spec trek rail 9.0 or orbea wild fsh10. Just need to choose which one. Also contemplating the focus jam2 6.9 or kona process. Decisions/decisions ?

 

[steve_sordy]

For my first emtb I bought a Focus Jam2 9.6 NINE, which translates as a CF framed 29er. With heavier tyres and tubeless converted and pedals it weighs 20.4kg. I have a slightly heavier saddle and heavier grips too than standard. Even with the TEC pack on (2.2kg) it is still lighter than many of the new alloy Jams, especially the ones with the 630Whr batteries. In TEC pack format, it has 756Whr and weighs 22.6kg

Right now, I'm struggling to decide what emtb I would buy instead of this one. Until I know, I'm keeping it.

 

[Alexnavyblue]

For my first emtb I bought a Focus Jam2 9.6 NINE, which translates as a CF framed 29er. With heavier tyres and tubeless converted and pedals it weighs 20.4kg. I have a slightly heavier saddle and heavier grips too than standard. Even with the TEC pack on (2.2kg) it is still lighter than many of the new alloy Jams, especially the ones with the 630Whr batteries. In TEC pack format, it has 756Whr and weighs 22.6kg

Right now, I'm struggling to decide what emtb I would buy instead of this one. Until I know, I'm keeping it.

You reckon focus are a good shout from your own experience Steve?

 

[Superkoochy]

Alloy frames are quite hard to repair, I put a huge hole in my specialized enduro down tube (carbon) with a piece of shale and a company in scotland fixed it and paint matched it for £160.

 

[steve_sordy]

You reckon focus are a good shout from your own experience Steve?

Overall, very much so. But it depends upon what you want. It suits my need for a lightweight aggressive trail bike with 150mm travel. The geo suits me too and I like the way the Shimano Steps e8000 delivers the power.

I had an early problem with the 4.5A charger (extensively covered on this forum), that was sorted to my satisfaction by swapping it for a 4Amp charger. Along the way Focus decided it was a battery problem (it wasn't) and gave me a new one! (The fact that this is the opposite of your experience has not escaped me). I have had two problems caused by bolts coming loose. One was a motor mounting bolt that unscrewed itself and chewed up the spider. The other was a the lower shock mounting bolt coming loose. Both fixed under warranty, but I partly blame myself. I should have checked earlier and/or seen the problem sooner. But there you go. Bolts coming loose could happen to any bike, its not news, so I should have been prepared.

That's the full extent of my problems. No motor issues, no hub issues, nothing falling off, no cracks, no bearing failures. The bike has been an absolute delight.

 

[Alexnavyblue]

Alloy frames are quite hard to repair, I put a huge hole in my specialized enduro down tube (carbon) with a piece of shale and a company in scotland fixed it and paint matched it for £160.

That sounds like a cracking deal. You must have feared the worst when you realised you had a hole in your down tube!

 

[Alexnavyblue]

Overall, very much so. But it depends upon what you want. It suits my need for a lightweight aggressive trail bike with 150mm travel. The geo suits me too and I like the way the Shimano Steps e8000 delivers the power.

I had an early problem with the 4.5A charger (extensively covered on this forum), that was sorted to my satisfaction by swapping it for a 4Amp charger. Along the way Focus decided it was a battery problem (it wasn't) and gave me a new one! (The fact that this is the opposite of your experience has not escaped me). I have had two problems caused by bolts coming loose. One was a motor mounting bolt that unscrewed itself and chewed up the spider. The other was a the lower shock mounting bolt coming loose. Both fixed under warranty, but I partly blame myself. I should have checked earlier and/or seen the problem sooner. But there you go. Bolts coming loose could happen to any bike, its not news, so I should have been prepared.

That's the full extent of my problems. No motor issues, no hub issues, nothing falling off, no cracks, no bearing failures. The bike has been an absolute delight.

Overall, very much so. But it depends upon what you want. It suits my need for a lightweight aggressive trail bike with 150mm travel. The geo suits me too and I like the way the Shimano Steps e8000 delivers the power.

I had an early problem with the 4.5A charger (extensively covered on this forum), that was sorted to my satisfaction by swapping it for a 4Amp charger. Along the way Focus decided it was a battery problem (it wasn't) and gave me a new one! (The fact that this is the opposite of your experience has not escaped me). I have had two problems caused by bolts coming loose. One was a motor mounting bolt that unscrewed itself and chewed up the spider. The other was a the lower shock mounting bolt coming loose. Both fixed under warranty, but I partly blame myself. I should have checked earlier and/or seen the problem sooner. But there you go. Bolts coming loose could happen to any bike, its not news, so I should have been prepared.

That's the full extent of my problems. No motor issues, no hub issues, nothing falling off, no cracks, no bearing failures. The bike has been an absolute delight.

Customer service with Focus sounds good. That's a definite positive pal ?

 

[Gazzaaitken]

Hi Alex

I have had both an orbea fs wild mteam and currently a trek rail 9.8 xt. I had issues with the orbea and swapped to the rail. Both are great bikes though. Shop around and see what prices you can find. I ordered mine from Progression bikes in Dunkeld, Adam gave me an awesome deal, £5780 for my Rail which was £1000 off list, 2nd battery at trade price which was £580. I would buy local if you can with updates etc.

 

[urastus]

Aluminium! I'm an inverted snob - function over marketing and form all the time. All those bolt interfaces needed with cf and any ding is a potential future weakness.

 

[Alexnavyblue]

Hi Alex

I have had both an orbea fs wild mteam and currently a trek rail 9.8 xt. I had issues with the orbea and swapped to the rail. Both are great bikes though. Shop around and see what prices you can find. I ordered mine from Progression bikes in Dunkeld, Adam gave me an awesome deal, £5780 for my Rail which was £1000 off list, 2nd battery at trade price which was £580. I would buy local if you can with updates etc.

Thanks pal. Im between Falkirk and Airdrie so not too far from Dunkeld. Sounds like this shop is worth a call

 

[Gazzaaitken]

Thanks pal. Im between Falkirk and Airdrie so not too far from Dunkeld. Sounds like this shop is worth a call

I emailed/called a few shops and got prices blazing bikes were a good price, then called Adam and done the deal, although this was before covid, good luck fella

 

[neiloxford]

My understanding is the carbon rail frame is around 2kg lighter.

Better components work better, and last longer.
-Lyrik much better than the Yari ( you can upgrade to lyrik internals later for £300ish which you will very likely end up doing so add this to the price of the 9.7 ).
-GX better than NX but NX works.
-The elite dropper is a fair bit better according to the reviews.

A lighter bike is a bit easier to lift on and off the car etc, and aggressive riders get a benefit on downhills as easier to throw around although it is relative as it is 24kg vs 22kg which is very very very heavy vs very very heavy if we were talking about analogue bikes

A heavier ebike makes no difference on the uphill due to the motor.

Something to be aware of if you buy a small or medium carbon rail frame. This is not a risk for large or x-large frames.

Knock-Block failed - Trek Rail 9.8 carbon frame damage

Bugger bugger bugger. I had a simple wash-out on a corner at Cwmcarn. Knock-block "feature" broke and the forks over rotated causing the knurled aluminium damper adjuster on the Lyrik's to scrape along the underside of the downtube. Trek are stating it's not a warranty claim which I can't argue...

www.emtbforums.com

carbon is the heart, and aluminum is the head ?

One last thing to consider is you can upgrade everything except the frame. Depends on whether you upgrade your bikes.

 

[urastus]

My understanding is the carbon rail frame is around 2kg lighter.

Better components work better, and last longer.
-Lyrik much better than the Yari ( you can upgrade to lyrik internals later for £300ish which you will very likely end up doing so add this to the price of the 9.7 ).
-GX better than NX but NX works.
-The elite dropper is a fair bit better according to the reviews.

A lighter bike is a bit easier to lift on and off the car etc, and aggressive riders get a benefit on downhills as easier to throw around although it is relative as it is 24kg vs 22kg which is very very very heavy vs very very heavy if we were talking about analogue bikes

A heavier ebike makes no difference on the uphill due to the motor.

Something to be aware of if you buy a small or medium carbon rail frame. This is not a risk for large or x-large frames.

Knock-Block failed - Trek Rail 9.8 carbon frame damage

Bugger bugger bugger. I had a simple wash-out on a corner at Cwmcarn. Knock-block "feature" broke and the forks over rotated causing the knurled aluminium damper adjuster on the Lyrik's to scrape along the underside of the downtube. Trek are stating it's not a warranty claim which I can't argue...

www.emtbforums.com

carbon is the heart, and aluminum is the head ?

One last thing to consider is you can upgrade everything except the frame. Depends on whether you upgrade your bikes.

2kg difference! That doesn't sound right.

 

[neiloxford]

2kg difference! That doesn't sound right.

The 2 bikes below. These are where the components differ. Most of the components on the 9.7 would be heavier ( except the tires ), but the bike is 2.1kg lighter.

	RAIL 9	RAIL 9.7
Frame	Aluminium	Carbon
Fork	Lyrik 1994g	Yari RC 2072g
Shock	RockShox Deluxe RT3	RockShox Deluxe Select+
Tyre	Bontrager SE5 Team Issue, 2.6" - 1060g	Bontrager XR5 Team Issue, 2.6" - 970g
Shifter	SRAM GX Eagle single-click, 12-speed	SRAM NX Eagle single-click, 12-speed
Rear derailleur	SRAM GX Eagle 290g	SRAM NX Eagle 340g
Cassette	SRAM XG-1275 Eagle, 10-50, 12-speed 450g	SRAM PG-1230 Eagle, 11-50, 12-speed 615g
Chain	SRAM GX Eagle, 12-speed	SRAM NX Eagle, 12-speed
Seatpost	Bontrager Line Elite Dropper 555g	Bontrager Line Dropper 595g
Handlebar	Bontrager Line, alloy, 35 mm, 27.5 mm rise	Bontrager Comp, alloy, 31.8 mm, 15 mm rise
Stem	Bontrager Line, 35 mm, Knock Block	Bontrager Rhythm Comp, 31.8mm, Knock Block
Brake	Shimano SLX M7120 4-piston hydraulic disc 631g	Shimano hydraulic disc, MT501 lever, MT520 4-piston calliper 669g
Weight	M - 23.91 kg / 52.71 lbs (with tubes)	M - 21.83 kg / 48.13 lbs (with TLR sealant, no tubes)

 

[urastus]

Yes, still around 1.5kg taking into account the tyre setups and the bars? I'm still not sure I'd believe that 1.5 kg is due to the frames alone - but I'm pretty cynical when it comes to big business

 

[Philly G]

T

Yes, still around 1.5kg taking into account the tyre setups and the bars? I'm still not sure I'd believe that 1.5 kg is due to the frames alone - but I'm pretty cynical when it comes to big business

The fork is a bit lighter on the 9 as well. I'm really not loving the component spec on the 9.7, especially for the money. You'd really have to want the carbon frame to buy it, and be prepared to spend further to upgrade it over time

 

[steve_sordy]

Customer service with Focus sounds good. That's a definite positive pal ?

Sorry for the confusion about "the opposite of your experience". At the time, I was thinking about another post I had just read where a Focus owner needed a new frame battery and couldn't get Focus to reply to him.

 

[Alexnavyblue]

Probably leaning more towards aluminium now tbh. Just need to decide whether the trek rail 9.0 or the orbea fs h10 is the best bet. Still outside chance of focus jam 2 6.9 but the waiting list is crazy

 

[neiloxford]

Trek rail available to hire so you can try it out. Best to buy a bike you have ridden.

Mountain Bike Hire at Cannock Chase Trail Centre - Cannock Chase Cycle Hire

Cannock Chase Cycle Centre has a quality range of hire bikes for all riders including hard tails, full suspension and even e-bikes.

www.cannockchasecyclecentre.co.uk

This outfit might have them as well, phone number on the website to confirm.

https://www.dalbyforestcyclehub.co.uk/electric-hire-bikes/

Orbea Wild is available at Grizedale in the lake district...phone to book though as they have other bikes.

Booking Your Hire Bike At Grizedale Forest

Welcome to the Biketreks Grizedale Hire Booking Page. Here you can see the bikes and add ons we have available to hire during your visit to Grizedale Forest, Hawkshead, Near Ambleside, Cumbria, LA22 0QJ. During lockdown we are still open so you've got somewhere to escape to but please don't...

www.bike-treks.co.uk

 

[Alexnavyblue]

Trek rail available to hire so you can try it out. Best to buy a bike you have ridden.

Mountain Bike Hire at Cannock Chase Trail Centre - Cannock Chase Cycle Hire

Cannock Chase Cycle Centre has a quality range of hire bikes for all riders including hard tails, full suspension and even e-bikes.

www.cannockchasecyclecentre.co.uk

This outfit might have them as well, phone number on the website to confirm.

https://www.dalbyforestcyclehub.co.uk/electric-hire-bikes/

Orbea Wild is available at Grizedale in the lake district...phone to book though as they have other bikes.

Booking Your Hire Bike At Grizedale Forest

Welcome to the Biketreks Grizedale Hire Booking Page. Here you can see the bikes and add ons we have available to hire during your visit to Grizedale Forest, Hawkshead, Near Ambleside, Cumbria, LA22 0QJ. During lockdown we are still open so you've got somewhere to escape to but please don't...

www.bike-treks.co.uk

Thanks Neil ?

 

[R120]

I would just buy the best bike for you within your budget, doesn't matter what its made of, as many crap carbon bikes as there are good alloy ones