Hacking ! Why ?

[Dax]

Why do people buy an electric bike?

usually because they are middle aged, unfit, cash rich and time poor

 

[Albez]

usually because they are middle aged, unfit, cash rich and time poor

And like the speed of the things.
That smile on the face after the first ride is because of the speed, and how quick they reach that speed.

 

[Albez]

Because they are fun - and like any other bike people modify them to suit there needs - "hacking" an ebike, which doesn't necessarily mean derestricting it, is something a lot of people do to get it riding how they want - its no different to changing components and set up on the rest of the bike, and its something that makes sense, tuning the motor to perform how you want is the same reasoning as changing your gearing to suit you riding.

First and foremost people derestrict their bikes to go faster and to get rid of the crap cut out that slows you down. All that other stuff about setting the bike to suit the riding is secondary.

 

[Al Boneta]

Land access in the USA is far behind Europe, but European regulations on Ebikes are far behind the USA.
I need to move where both are at the same level

 

[Al Boneta]

Sounds like a challenge of the open source community. I suspect they'll be able to knock up "adjusted" firmwares for the big brand motors that get by the security within months if they believe there is a value there, or even just for the challenge. Based on the gaffes the manufacturers have made with their apps and buetooth upgrades I severely doubt they have implemented world class security without any back doors.

Maybe, maybe not. It’s not like the manufacturers want to go to all this trouble if it wasn’t eventually going be a legal hassle down the road. Liability just isn’t worth it.

I don’t think it’s really a question of making it impossible to tamper with the software, but making the software detect tampering.

I don’t know about anyone else, but tampering with my bike isn’t worth giving up warranty service and updates. But my bikes aren’t governed to 25kph, so I can understand the need to do so.

I also think that at such a crucial point in the land access battle in the USA, the last thing I would want to do is derestrict my bike to raise even more concerns

 

[Gary]

All that other stuff about setting the bike to suit the riding is secondary

You're not from Wiltshire by any chance are you?

 

[Albez]

You're not from Wiltshire by any chance are you?

Nope.

 

[R120]

First and foremost people derestrict their bikes to go faster and to get rid of the crap cut out that slows you down. All that other stuff about setting the bike to suit the riding is secondary.

I wasn’t talking about drrestricting, I was talking about changing your motor settings. For most people thats primary, way more important than when the motor cuts out. Doesn't matter what the limit is if you don't like the way the bike rides, or the motor delivers the power

 

[Injidup]

On the trails I have seen no reason to derestrict my bike. If I go over 25kmh it’s downhill and gravity helps. On my commute, I’d like to have the limit raised to 30kmh so that I get some assistance, not to go any faster. At the moment I cruise on the flat on our bike paths at around 28kph, lugging a 20kg bike along.
Without the motor to help on the climbs I wouldn’t be riding to work. Tried it on my full sus bike and also on a road bike, and started to get bored, so gave up. Having the eMTB means I’m actually riding to work instead of taking my motorbike. We (in Australia) have the same limit as the UK. I’d just like the same limit as the USA.
I’m sure that on the trails I do more damage on my 11kg 26x2.1 skinny tyred bike than on my 20kg 2.8 tyred bike with its much larger footprint.

 

[skyfree]

Like others on here, I see no reason to derestrict for riding on trails, but if you use your eMTB for commuting it's a different situation. In the US we have 28mph restricted "Class 3" eBikes that are perfect for commuting. That indicates that everyone understands that this is a more realistic speed cut-off when riding on public roads in traffic. I have said this on here before that I feel like it's unsafe to mix with traffic at a vastly reduced speed.
I know this is in the Specialized forum so this doesn't apply to you, but Bosch CX Drive motors are notoriously difficult to pedal after the assistance cuts off. I've tried out most of the other available drive units on different bikes and this characteristic seems unique to Bosch so "just pedal harder" doesn't really help.
I'm not sure about other bikes, but the gearing on my Haibike AllMtn 8.0 means that 28 mph is right about the top speed achievable pedaling, so even derestricted it's right in line with a class 3 bike. Above that, the cadence is crazy.
The right thing to do would be to just buy a class 3 bike for commuting, but if funds and/or storage for a 2nd bike aren't available, derestricting is a good option.

 

[Al Boneta]

I don’t commute on my Emtb, because even if it was derestricted, it’s still not the best choice for pavement.
Expensive soft compound mountain bike tires wear out pretty fast on tarmac.
I live in the USA and there is no fucking way I am going to lock up a 7K bike outside while I go in to shop.
I think the 25km limit in Europe is complete horseshit.

 

[Mcharza]

I don’t commute on my Emtb, because even if it was derestricted, it’s still not the best choice for pavement.
Expensive soft compound mountain bike tires wear out pretty fast on tarmac.
I live in the USA and there is no fucking way I am going to lock up a 7K bike outside while I go in to shop.
I think the 25km limit in Europe is complete horseshit.

Yes it might be horseshit, but 25 km/h is fast enough for trails. And that's where i'm using it. And for downhill you can cut off the e-power

 

[Doomanic]

I rode BPW today on my restricted Bosch eBike. At no point did I find the restriction a hindrance and I was quite often pedaling whilst over the cutout, so "just pedal harder" does work. The 2 Kenevos and 3 Levos that made up the group were also all restricted and I didn't hear any of them moaning about it.
We also had a chat with a few of the hired eBikes, none of them mentioned it either.

How much of this is "want" rather than "need"? Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
With the obvious exception of Gary with his Sam Hill levels of skill, how many genuinely need more speed on the trails.

And finally, I'd rather have EU speed restrictions than US land access issues any day of the week!

 

[GuyBerry]

25 km/h (on beach tires) is to slow for commuting, but I rarely pass 32 km/h unless I'm on wide lanes with almost no traffic.

 

[Albez]

I will take more speed over than less speed, guess I'm just greedy and hate dumb restrictions.

 

[R120]

Have you ridden an EMTB in anger? Derestricting doesn't really make it faster, thats dictated by your gearing and cadence. What it does do is make it easier, as you are maintaining the assistance further up the range. The geometry and fit of the bike makes a bigger difference, and perhaps more than anything else technique and bike skills to how fast you will go on technical terrain.

I ride with a lot of non ebike riders, some of whom have raced at elite level, and they will be just as fast, usually faster than me, though more knackered after a proper climb.

EMTB motors are designed to assist you, and ideally replicate the natural feel of riding a normal bike as best as possible, not to be faster than a normal bike. The reason many people "hack" their bikes is to maintain this feeling.

No doubt you can hack one with the emphasis on speed, and alter your gearing to change that, but really the ultimate aim of any E-MTB motor is to make the assistance an unobtrusive as possible - on many motors the Turbo mode may be a giggle, but its not faster, it just requires less effort, and for many people its actually too much on the trails as you have less control than on lower power settings. For example i can climb faster using Trail than Turbo because it is far more natural to use, on the Shimano system.

 

[Albez]

Have you ridden an EMTB in anger? Derestricting doesn't really make it faster, thats dictated by your gearing and cadence. What it does do is make it easier, as you are maintaining the assistance further up the range. The geometry and fit of the bike makes a bigger difference, and perhaps more than anything else technique and bike skills to how fast you will go on technical terrain.

I ride with a lot of non ebike riders, some of whom have raced at elite level, and they will be just as fast, usually faster than me, though more knackered after a proper climb.

EMTB motors are designed to assist you, and ideally replicate the natural feel of riding a normal bike as best as possible, not to be faster than a normal bike. The reason many people "hack" their bikes is to maintain this feeling.

No doubt you can hack one with the emphasis on speed, and alter your gearing to change that, but really the ultimate aim of any E-MTB motor is to make the assistance an unobtrusive as possible - on many motors the Turbo mode may be a giggle, but its not faster, it just requires less effort, and for many people its actually too much on the trails as you have less control than on lower power settings. For example i can climb faster using Trail than Turbo because it is far more natural to use, on the Shimano system.

I was actually referring to an electric bike used to commute, as that is basically what my hardtail is used at the moment. Maybe it's not a speed thing on an emtb but on tarmac it sure as hell helps. And yeah, turbo means more power to go quicker, right?

 

[R120]

I would say turbo means you go the same speed with least amount of effort.

Basically my personal view on modes is that with the higher modes don’t make the bike faster, they just reduce the effort that you need to put in.

On a derestricted or restricted bike being in eco or turbo will make no difference to how fast the bike can go, just how much effort the rider needs to put in to get to said speed.

 

[Albez]

I would say turbo means you go the same speed with least amount of effort.

Basically my personal view on modes is that with the higher modes don’t make the bike faster, they just reduce the effort that you need to put in.

On a derestricted or restricted bike being in eco or turbo will make no difference to how fast the bike can go, just how much effort the rider needs to put in to get to said speed.

I guess the feeling of easier pedalling gives the feeling of going faster. But surely you must agree that the cut off slows you down whereas derestricting gives the ability to go faster? I mean could you get the same speed on a restricted ebike as you could on a derestricted ebike, and reach that speed in the same amount of time?

 

[All Mountain Coaching]

+1 r120, dude talks sense.

 

[Swissrob]

Maybe, maybe not. It’s not like the manufacturers want to go to all this trouble if it wasn’t eventually going be a legal hassle down the road. Liability just isn’t worth it.

I don’t think it’s really a question of making it impossible to tamper with the software, but making the software detect tampering.

I don’t know about anyone else, but tampering with my bike isn’t worth giving up warranty service and updates. But my bikes aren’t governed to 25kph, so I can understand the need to do so.

I also think that at such a crucial point in the land access battle in the USA, the last thing I would want to do is derestrict my bike to raise even more concerns

So what is the situation with some one wanting to fit 27.5s to their Levo, can you as a retailer reset the software to suit? Is this hacking?
Maybe for others on a commute, just pump up your tyres, a 10er will get you a tyre gauge 50% of your problem solved.

 

[Lewis]

I had my first ebike to give me transport as i had to wait a year of no driving due to epileptic seizure. Mine was before law changed so still has a throttle, i burnt out 3 befang mid drive motors by doing 20mph, so now use 18mph and pedal to get moving then use throttle for a breather. We have kids riding on pavement with no hands doing more than 15mph. I prefer cycle lanes, but we are getting a lot of mbs using downlands and destroying it, some knocked down a fence gate so they could get bike through, and an ancient flint quarry is being worn down faster than from just walking

 

[Swissrob]

Maybe, maybe not. It’s not like the manufacturers want to go to all this trouble if it wasn’t eventually going be a legal hassle down the road. Liability just isn’t worth it.

I don’t think it’s really a question of making it impossible to tamper with the software, but making the software detect tampering.

I don’t know about anyone else, but tampering with my bike isn’t worth giving up warranty service and updates. But my bikes aren’t governed to 25kph, so I can understand the need to do so.

I also think that at such a crucial point in the land access battle in the USA, the last thing I would want to do is derestrict my bike to raise even more concerns

So what is the situation with some one wanting to fit 27.5s to their Levo, can you as a retailer reset the software to suit? Is this hacking?
Maybe for others on a commute, just pump up your tyres, a 10er will get you a tyre gauge 50% of your problem solved.

 

[Tamas]

This will be the emtb killer.. if true.

I don't think so... a changing legislation, the reclassification of ebikes from bicycles to mopeds would kill emtbs which would inevitably happen if de-restriction gets 'out of hand' so I 'welcome' this step to keep it the way it is (talking about EU).

Like others, I would like higher assist limit than 25kph but it's a compromise I'm willing to accept in order to ride it as a bicycle. For me, it's a much better solution than in the US where the assist limit is 32kph but on the trails, they considered as motorized vehicles and cannot be ridden on non-motorized, bicycle trails.

 

[R120]

When it comes to riding on tarmac, then an EMTB is never going to be that fast.

I had a go on a BMC Alpenchallenge Alp, and this is a fast bike on the road, and lite enough that it keeps on going well beyond the limit. Road focused wheels and tyres, and much lighter weight combined with the Shimano e8000 when most bikes like this use the e6000. Expensive but one hell of a commuter bike.

 

[Tetsugaku]

I derestricted mine. The motor went and I still got it replaced under warranty. So don’t worry about that.

As for “ooo you’ll make people hate ebikes” well that’s a lot of crap ‘cos Porsche do ok selling cars that can do triple the speed limit. Not the bike or the car it’s the one in control.

Lastly why did I do it? Because I ride two hours flat every day on road and cycle path, I get to work quicker.

However even with it totally derestricted I’m lucky to get it past 33KPH. the faster you go the worse wind gets.

Ooo and remember out of the box a Specialised does 27.5KPH so really, dont sweat it.

 

[paquo]

. For me, it's a much better solution than in the US where the assist limit is 32kph but on the trails, they considered as motorized vehicles and cannot be ridden on non-motorized, bicycle trails.

In the US the e bike access rules are not uniform. In the SF bay area there are plenty of trails to ride whereas in the Denver area not really. I live in a city so a bunch of pavement to get to trails. The assist cut off speed @ 32 kph is a bit of a drag as i am used to sections where i hit 40 on my regular bike. If i lived in europe no question the 25 kph would not work for me unless it was for 100% twisty tight trails with fewer fast fire road sections.

 

[Deleted member 1275]

Just got back from a blast on our local trails with my much better half and we haven’t stopped grinning we had so much fun. One of our bikes is derestricted the other is standard, equal fun for different reasons! ??

 

[Tamas]

In the US the e bike access rules are not uniform. In the SF bay area there are plenty of trails to ride whereas in the Denver area not really. I live in a city so a bunch of pavement to get to trails. The assist cut off speed @ 32 kph is a bit of a drag as i am used to sections where i hit 40 on my regular bike. If i lived in europe no question the 25 kph would not work for me unless it was for 100% twisty tight trails with fewer fast fire road sections.

I understand... for me, the 25kph is still an acceptable compromise and if not, then riding a regular bike is the solution not de-restricting my emtb as it's counterproductive in the long run.
Even with the 25kph assist limit when I compare to my regular bike rides I only achieved higher average speeds on my road bike on routes which had less elevation...

 

[CHUNITED]

Haven't bought my first eMTB yet, still looking but it appears that Dax already knows me sooo well