H15 or M20 - paralysed by indecision!

[Longfellow78]

You could try Surge bikes and see if they will price match. If not they would include £560 worth of accessories for full RRP, which would cover the range extender and other bits.

https://www.surgebikes.co.uk/shop/e-bikes/orbea-rise-m20/

Thanks. Interesting suggestion, have just had a look. Hmm, they have excellent trustpilot reviews, but their website looks a bit cowboyish. They have artificially inflated the price of the bikes, i.e. the M20 is £5899 instead of £5599, and then they offer £589 of accessories. So it's really £289 of accessories. Also the accessories aren't anything in the shop, but are restricted to a preset list of stuff, like locks, helmets, clothing, bags, etc. They also say you can "make them an offer" on a bike, which is a bit unusual, but you don't get the accessories. I suppose you could offer say £5399, which might be worth a punt, although I'd have to check if I lose my deposit from the other place. They also have no information about stock, and if you submit an order, it looks like you can't actually buy the bike online, instead "Your order will be reviewed by a member of our team to ensure suitability and fit. We will then get in touch with you to finalise the order." So they probably don't have stock, but want you to think they do, and then hope they can convince you to order that bike or something else. Maybe that's unfair, but I've never seen such a weird process before, and it raises questions.

In any case I've flip flopped to the M20. That's it. Not changing now! I'm getting quite pissed off with myself about it tbh.

 

[CORC_Richard]

Thanks. Interesting suggestion, have just had a look. Hmm, they have excellent trustpilot reviews, but their website looks a bit cowboyish. They have artificially inflated the price of the bikes, i.e. the M20 is £5899 instead of £5599, and then they offer £589 of accessories. So it's really £289 of accessories. Also the accessories aren't anything in the shop, but are restricted to a preset list of stuff, like locks, helmets, clothing, bags, etc. They also say you can "make them an offer" on a bike, which is a bit unusual, but you don't get the accessories. I suppose you could offer say £5399, which might be worth a punt, although I'd have to check if I lose my deposit from the other place. They also have no information about stock, and if you submit an order, it looks like you can't actually buy the bike online, instead "Your order will be reviewed by a member of our team to ensure suitability and fit. We will then get in touch with you to finalise the order." So they probably don't have stock, but want you to think they do, and then hope they can convince you to order that bike or something else. Maybe that's unfair, but I've never seen such a weird process before, and it raises questions.

In any case I've flip flopped to the M20. That's it. Not changing now! I'm getting quite pissed off with myself about it tbh.

I think £5,899 is the M20 2022 bike price. Check which bike they have in stock and what price they will sell it for, worth a phone call.

 

[Gardcol]

I’ve had my M10 for 11months now and done over 2500km and 130000m ascent. I use the range extender when going to one particular area. I ride one very steep trail twice then I ditch the extender at car park and finish with 2 runs on another trail that really suits a light bike (lots of tight steep turns). This is a big day out with a lunch stop and pretty exhausting 4hrs of hard enduro. About 1500m and 35km. 90% if the time I don’t use the extender and ride for about 2hrs all enduro trails and do 800m and 20k. I find that I am pretty knackered after the 2hrs and have about 20% battery left compared to friends on FF who will have 30% but I do put in more effort. I ride 95% in trail set to 42nm.
I love my M10 for my style of riding but do occasionally get range anxiety and think if I were to do it all again would probably get the H model as it’s not much more weight and for me would outlast any FF.

 

[Longfellow78]

I’ve had my M10 for 11months now and done over 2500km and 130000m ascent. I use the range extender when going to one particular area. I ride one very steep trail twice then I ditch the extender at car park and finish with 2 runs on another trail that really suits a light bike (lots of tight steep turns). This is a big day out with a lunch stop and pretty exhausting 4hrs of hard enduro. About 1500m and 35km. 90% if the time I don’t use the extender and ride for about 2hrs all enduro trails and do 800m and 20k. I find that I am pretty knackered after the 2hrs and have about 20% battery left compared to friends on FF who will have 30% but I do put in more effort. I ride 95% in trail set to 42nm.
I love my M10 for my style of riding but do occasionally get range anxiety and think if I were to do it all again would probably get the H model as it’s not much more weight and for me would outlast any FF.

Great Post thanks.

 

[1oldfart]

I am on my third Ebike.
If you like boost = you hate 360 watts
that simple

 

[Kevlasultanpus]

TLDR: Any M20 owners, would you have taken an alloy bike if it was available at the time?

After spending a lot time deciding on the rise over a full fat ebike (thanks for everyone who helped me decide on this great forum) I now have the same issue with the M20 vs H15.

Obviously I'd like to pay less, but cost is not really the issue spread over the lifetime of the bike. I like the colours of both bikes. My issue is:

I have always valued light weight over everything as a bike which is colouring my thinking probably.

I will probably replace the bar and stem on both bikes, and get a garmin edge 530 so the lack of display is no issue with the m20 (the h bikes come with a shimano ec7000 display as standard if you didn't know). Otherwise the drivetrain spec is pretty much identical apart from rear mech which makes no difference.

I weigh 147 lbs and don't do big jumps, so the 34 performance fork is plenty, I know the float X is better than the DPS, but I'm not that bothered really due to the overall weight saving.

It really comes down to the battery for me and nothing else. I do moderate rides of 20 to 30km, but would like to do longer with an ebike.

The bottom line is really, is 360wh enough, and will I ever get pissed off running out of battery (I will probably use boost a lot) vs the extra 2kg on the H bike, which "probably" has a better ride due to the upgraded suspension.
I would only rarely run out of battery I'd expect, and there is always the range extender (although now you're almost at the same weight and nearly £900 more - wife thinks I'm only spending 4k total).

One thought is, the 540wh battery is 50% bigger, which means if I want on the H, I could ride in boost a lot more often and end up with the same range, which would I would think easily offset the extra 2kg. Also I only ride with one friend who is stronger and has a full fat levo - I am a weaker rider and may hold him back with the smaller battery.

A final thought is that the m20 supposedly 2kg lighter than the h15. 500g of that is the increased battery size (900g on a ratio basis as new battery is proportionately lighter) 450g of that is the heavier suspension components. Hence the M20 is only actually 1kg lighter on a like for like comparison, or less if you cheat with battery calculations

So essentially you're paying £400 more for 750g adjusted diffence. How much is that worth it on an ebike? When you have the increased confidence in range?

Certainly on an analogue bike people would kill to have a 750g weight saving for that price.

I really am stumped.

Any thoughts appreciated? Thanks.

p.s. has anyone actually seen a ride review of the hydro bikes yet? They are for sale, but I see not a single actual review online, only overviews/previews.

Thanks.

Re battery life.. my 360w on my 2019 jam2 can do anywhere from 40 -50km in eco mode. Just about to get a trailwatts booster battery for epic rides.

 

[Mamshi]

New member here - I am pondering the exact same question as OP So I am finding this thread very interesting. In my case, I can get a M20 now or wait to September on a H15 - I am trying to weigh the pro’s and con’s of each bike I initially wanted the M10, but there’s none for sale and probably won’t be any for the next year or so at LBS, so that’s out of the equation.

 

[Tonybro]

@Mamshi we have a saying in the UK. "A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush". The meaning of which is having something is better than looking at something.

An M20 is a great bike, if it's available now, grab it otherwise you will be waiting and missing out for a long time while waiting. Take the fun on offer now.

 

[Underblu]

I would like to know this too. Boost especially.

I can’t really say because I ride almost exclusively in eco.

 

[Longfellow78]

New member here - I am pondering the exact same question as OP So I am finding this thread very interesting. In my case, I can get a M20 now or wait to September on a H15 - I am trying to weigh the pro’s and con’s of each bike I initially wanted the M10, but there’s none for sale and probably won’t be any for the next year or so at LBS, so that’s out of the equation.

What size are you? Sigma have a medium m10 in white with 10% off right now.

 

[Longfellow78]

I am on my third Ebike.
If you like boost = you hate 360 watts
that simple

This is a perspective I was looking for.

 

[Longfellow78]

New member here - I am pondering the exact same question as OP So I am finding this thread very interesting. In my case, I can get a M20 now or wait to September on a H15 - I am trying to weigh the pro’s and con’s of each bike I initially wanted the M10, but there’s none for sale and probably won’t be any for the next year or so at LBS, so that’s out of the equation.

My thinking is that the h15 is more versatile. It will be almost as light and ride very similarly than the stock m20 and I would guess ride better than the m20 with a range extender because the extra weight is distributed evenly instead of very densely in one small area above the motor. The suspension will allow more aggressive and harsher terrain, but won't inhibit anything on light terrain, and the extra battery enables 50% more distance or a much higher proportion of boost if required. But if not required, it will make minimal difference overall. One of the main reasons for an Ebike to me is to enjoy the boost, or for long trail expeditions.

M20 on the other hand will be I expect slightly and noticeably more agile on the technical stuff, but I wonder if that is negated by the ability of the h15 to be in boost for significantly longer.

For the m20 to have the versatility of the h15 it needs a range extender, which then negates its only advantage.

I flip flop on this twice per day but I'm leaning h15. We're talking Swiss army knife vs scalpel here.

I'm also thinking the £400 saved allows purchase of a much lighter carbon bar, a lighter stem, a one-up v2 dropper post, a lightweight saddle, which should all be good for almost 500g in weight, and the potential 500 quid on the range extender gets you a pair of custom made dt Swiss wheels or even some cheap hunt trail wide wheels, which is another 250g saved (which leaves enough for a 4 pot deore caliper for the front or a minion tyre upgrade for the front and the dissect or on the back) and now you're within a kilo of the carbon bike but with an absolute beast that is better than the h10.

Of course you could do the same upgrades to the m20 and then it would be even lighter, but that fundamentally doesn't change the character of the bike like having a larger stock battery allows.

I've told my LBS to reserve an h15, but I may switch depending which one comes in first. The alloy bikes will be in higher demand in Feb when shops get stock so this leaves me with more options.

Final point is, when out on the trail with the h15 I am doubtful anyone will have a regret they didn't get the carbon, because it will do what it does and be great. However with the carbon at 360wh I can imagine some wanting the boost more without range anxiety, or crunching down a particularly rough trail, and wishing they had gone h15 for less cash.

Oh and also, for those like me with fantasies of enormous all day epic treks in the alps or Scottish Highlands, maybe even an overnighter, the h15 could take a range extender, still be lighter than a FF but with an absolutely titanic battery size. So again even more versatile.

The guy in the lbs wants a bike and says he is desperate for an h15, but may have to "settle" for an m20. This is quite telling.

With All that said, I have read a lot of threads on satisfaction with the 360wh battery and most riders feel happy with the range and for the occasion longer ride feel the range extender is always there if you want.

H bikes also come with an included shimano screen/computer.

Every time I analyse this and take out my 2006 weight weenie obsession it always comes back to the h15.

 

[Longfellow78]

I can’t really say because I ride almost exclusively in eco.

How does the bike feel in eco compared say to a lightweight acoustic bike? Is it just riding a featherweight bike? Or more? Thanks.

 

[aarfeldt]

Please stop using ECO/TRAIL/BOOST comparison.
My ECO is not your ECO....since all levels can be adjusted individually.

My ECO is currently set 10Nm....and tomorrow it's set to 40Nm.
So it dosent make any sense to use the ECO/TRAIL/BOOST term, without telling the actual Nm setting.

 

[Gardcol]

I am on my third Ebike.
If you like boost = you hate 360 watts
that simple

Well said, that sums it up nicely. I did not want to lose fitness and that was a big part of decision. I use boost maybe 5% for a 10second push up some super steep bits but apart from that Trail at 42nm is 95%. I ride with FF friends and it works for me.

 

[Longfellow78]

My thinking is that the h15 is more versatile. It will be almost as light and ride very similarly than the stock m20 and I would guess ride better than the m20 with a range extender because the extra weight is distributed evenly instead of very densely in one small area above the motor. The suspension will allow more aggressive and harsher terrain, but won't inhibit anything on light terrain, and the extra battery enables 50% more distance or a much higher proportion of boost if required. But if not required, it will make minimal difference overall. One of the main reasons for an Ebike to me is to enjoy the boost, or for long trail expeditions.

M20 on the other hand will be I expect slightly and noticeably more agile on the technical stuff, but I wonder if that is negated by the ability of the h15 to be in boost for significantly longer.

For the m20 to have the versatility of the h15 it needs a range extender, which then negates its only advantage.

I flip flop on this twice per day but I'm leaning h15. We're talking Swiss army knife vs scalpel here.

I'm also thinking the £400 saved allows purchase of a much lighter carbon bar, a lighter stem, a one-up v2 dropper post, a lightweight saddle, which should all be good for almost 500g in weight, and the potential 500 quid on the range extender gets you a pair of custom made dt Swiss wheels or even some cheap hunt trail wide wheels, which is another 250g saved (which leaves enough for a 4 pot deore caliper for the front or a minion tyre upgrade for the front and the dissect or on the back) and now you're within a kilo of the carbon bike but with an absolute beast that is better than the h10.

Of course you could do the same upgrades to the m20 and then it would be even lighter, but that fundamentally doesn't change the character of the bike like having a larger stock battery allows.

I've told my LBS to reserve an h15, but I may switch depending which one comes in first. The alloy bikes will be in higher demand in Feb when shops get stock so this leaves me with more options.

Final point is, when out on the trail with the h15 I am doubtful anyone will have a regret they didn't get the carbon, because it will do what it does and be great. However with the carbon at 360wh I can imagine some wanting the boost more without range anxiety, or crunching down a particularly rough trail, and wishing they had gone h15 for less cash.

Oh and also, for those like me with fantasies of enormous all day epic treks in the alps or Scottish Highlands, maybe even an overnighter, the h15 could take a range extender, still be lighter than a FF but with an absolutely titanic battery size. So again even more versatile.

The guy in the lbs wants a bike and says he is desperate for an h15, but may have to "settle" for an m20. This is quite telling.

With All that said, I have read a lot of threads on satisfaction with the 360wh battery and most riders feel happy with the range and for the occasion longer ride feel the range extender is always there if you want.

H bikes also come with an included shimano screen/computer.

Every time I analyse this and take out my 2006 weight weenie obsession it always comes back to the h15.

Here's a thought. The hydro bikes have 70% of the power of the range extender, which at 1.45kg is equates to 1kg of additional power like for like. So really if we compare apples to apples, the hydro is only 600g heavier than the carbon of you factor in the larger battery size vs the carbon with 70% of a range extender.

 

[Shjay]

I think your overthinking it!! At your weight you could ride the carbon for miles…. I am 60lb heavier kitted up & don’t worry about range

 

[Zimmerframe]

Re-reading your posts, ultimately you're heart and logic is set on the H.

As you say, the H WILL do everything YOU want it to do.

The M might not.

Don't feel like you're alone out there. We all go though this. There is a natural fear of making the "wrong" decision. Ultimately, there isn't a "wrong" decision.

You will either buy :

A: A really fecking cool bike which you'll love riding.

or

B: A really fecking cool bike which you'll love riding.

99% of the time people end up loving their bike whatever they get because they're amazing. We all adapt to what the bike will do, if we want to go further, we use less assistance. If we're out for a short one with limited time available, we'll probably use more assistance and enjoy the ups as much as the down's. They're both "light" in the scheme of things and everyone will have their own view from their own fantastic experiences.

The biggest mistake you can make in my mind, is waiting. Life's too short.

 

[Longfellow78]

I think your overthinking it!! At your weight you could ride the carbon for miles…. I am 60lb heavier kitted up & don’t worry about range

I am massively over thinking it! But I'm quite enjoying it, hehe

 

[Longfellow78]

Re-reading your posts, ultimately you're heart and logic is set on the H.

As you say, the H WILL do everything YOU want it to do.

The M might not.

Don't feel like you're alone out there. We all go though this. There is a natural fear of making the "wrong" decision. Ultimately, there isn't a "wrong" decision.

You will either buy :

A: A really fecking cool bike which you'll love riding.

or

B: A really fecking cool bike which you'll love riding.

99% of the time people end up loving their bike whatever they get because they're amazing. We all adapt to what the bike will do, if we want to go further, we use less assistance. If we're out for a short one with limited time available, we'll probably use more assistance and enjoy the ups as much as the down's. They're both "light" in the scheme of things and everyone will have their own view from their own fantastic experiences.

The biggest mistake you can make in my mind, is waiting. Life's too short.

Great Post thanks. And you are right, the sexiness of lighter weight was alluring, but the H I think is the better overall package for my needs.

 

[Underblu]

How does the bike feel in eco compared say to a lightweight acoustic bike? Is it just riding a featherweight bike? Or more? Thanks.

I have the eco on my M20 set to the minimal boost and NM. Like I said, it‘s a very natural and responsive bike which is in part due to its light weight. I can detect a slight difference between eco and off but the EP8 mated to the M20 never feels intrusive or artificial. I suppose in eco, the pedaling effort in certain situations would be similar to a very lightweight XC bike. I can’t directly compare it because my only other bike is a SC Heckler MX-S.

I like to keep the M20 in eco and adjust the gears as necessary. However, for steeper hills, boost mode definitely gives you that hand of God push if you need it.

 

[Mamshi]

My thinking is that the h15 is more versatile. It will be almost as light and ride very similarly than the stock m20 and I would guess ride better than the m20 with a range extender because the extra weight is distributed evenly instead of very densely in one small area above the motor. The suspension will allow more aggressive and harsher terrain, but won't inhibit anything on light terrain, and the extra battery enables 50% more distance or a much higher proportion of boost if required. But if not required, it will make minimal difference overall. One of the main reasons for an Ebike to me is to enjoy the boost, or for long trail expeditions.

M20 on the other hand will be I expect slightly and noticeably more agile on the technical stuff, but I wonder if that is negated by the ability of the h15 to be in boost for significantly longer.

For the m20 to have the versatility of the h15 it needs a range extender, which then negates its only advantage.

I flip flop on this twice per day but I'm leaning h15. We're talking Swiss army knife vs scalpel here.

I'm also thinking the £400 saved allows purchase of a much lighter carbon bar, a lighter stem, a one-up v2 dropper post, a lightweight saddle, which should all be good for almost 500g in weight, and the potential 500 quid on the range extender gets you a pair of custom made dt Swiss wheels or even some cheap hunt trail wide wheels, which is another 250g saved (which leaves enough for a 4 pot deore caliper for the front or a minion tyre upgrade for the front and the dissect or on the back) and now you're within a kilo of the carbon bike but with an absolute beast that is better than the h10.

Of course you could do the same upgrades to the m20 and then it would be even lighter, but that fundamentally doesn't change the character of the bike like having a larger stock battery allows.

I've told my LBS to reserve an h15, but I may switch depending which one comes in first. The alloy bikes will be in higher demand in Feb when shops get stock so this leaves me with more options.

Final point is, when out on the trail with the h15 I am doubtful anyone will have a regret they didn't get the carbon, because it will do what it does and be great. However with the carbon at 360wh I can imagine some wanting the boost more without range anxiety, or crunching down a particularly rough trail, and wishing they had gone h15 for less cash.

Oh and also, for those like me with fantasies of enormous all day epic treks in the alps or Scottish Highlands, maybe even an overnighter, the h15 could take a range extender, still be lighter than a FF but with an absolutely titanic battery size. So again even more versatile.

The guy in the lbs wants a bike and says he is desperate for an h15, but may have to "settle" for an m20. This is quite telling.

With All that said, I have read a lot of threads on satisfaction with the 360wh battery and most riders feel happy with the range and for the occasion longer ride feel the range extender is always there if you want.

H bikes also come with an included shimano screen/computer.

Every time I analyse this and take out my 2006 weight weenie obsession it always comes back to the h15.

Valid points I am also leaning towards the H15 due to bigger battery, Shimano Screen and the suspension setup. It looks like there will be fewer upgrades om h15 than the m20 - since I don’t have to get the range extender. This is in no way a knock on the M20 but it looks like the H15 could fit my needs.
Obviously the biggest draw is waiting until September to get one, but it not like I don’t have a bike I like…time to put down the money

Btw. so cool with all these perspectives in the thread. It really helps highlights different aspects to a new buyer of an e-bike

 

[aarfeldt]

Great Post thanks. And you are right, the sexiness of lighter weight was alluring, but the H I think is the better overall package for my needs.

Get any M ....now !
If you wait 3/4 year for the H, there will come another bike that is lighter, cheaper, better specced, and the range is greather....

 

[Mamshi]

Get any M ....now !
If you wait 3/4 year for the H, there will come another bike that is lighter, cheaper, better specced, and the range is greather....

That’s also a valid point

 

[Longfellow78]

I have the eco on my M20 set to the minimal boost and NM. Like I said, it‘s a very natural and responsive bike which is in part due to its light weight. I can detect a slight difference between eco and off but the EP8 mated to the M20 never feels intrusive or artificial. I suppose in eco, the pedaling effort in certain situations would be similar to a very lightweight XC bike. I can’t directly compare it because my only other bike is a SC Heckler MX-S.

I like to keep the M20 in eco and adjust the gears as necessary. However, for steeper hills, boost mode definitely gives you that hand of God push if you need it.

Thanks. I like the hand of god. Haha

 

[Longfellow78]

Valid points I am also leaning towards the H15 due to bigger battery, Shimano Screen and the suspension setup. It looks like there will be fewer upgrades om h15 than the m20 - since I don’t have to get the range extender. This is in no way a knock on the M20 but it looks like the H15 could fit my needs.
Obviously the biggest draw is waiting until September to get one, but it not like I don’t have a bike I like…time to put down the money

Btw. so cool with all these perspectives in the thread. It really helps highlights different aspects to a new buyer of an e-bike

Well most of my thoughts are just semi-informed speculation. Frustrating that I can't find any H series ride reviews even though the bike, or at least the H30 has been out over a month.

 

[Gardcol]

Get any M ....now !
If you wait 3/4 year for the H, there will come another bike that is lighter, cheaper, better specced, and the range is greather....

I agree and also you’ll miss the whole summer! You can’t put a price in that.

 

[Mamshi]

I agree and also you’ll miss the whole summer! You can’t put a price in that.

Yes, although I could embrace the “pain” and keep riding my acoustic bike through the summer. But I see what you are getting at

 

[Mamshi]

Well most of my thoughts are just semi-informed speculation. Frustrating that I can't find any H series ride reviews even though the bike, or at least the H30 has been out over a month.

Yes, I’ve been trawling YouTube for reviews without much luck.

 

[Longfellow78]

Get any M ....now !
If you wait 3/4 year for the H, there will come another bike that is lighter, cheaper, better specced, and the range is greather....

Hard

Yes, I’ve been trawling YouTube for reviews without much luck.

Even the ones that claim to be reviews arent ride reviews, just specs and stuff we already know. I've seen two h30s in the flesh though, orange and grey/blue. Didn't like the orange but the grey one was stunning