H15 or M20 - paralysed by indecision!

[Phoenix]

That sounds logical but I'm getting confused now. This link says that 21700 have more capacity and a higher max current 21700 Batteries, Are They Better Than 18650 Batteries?

Higher capacity is explained by their larger size. Can't speak to the 'max current' aspect

 

[Planemo]

Is that lower peak power a possible reason why Orbea have limited the EP8 motor on the Rise to 60Nm, and why some people who have used software changes to increase the motor power have experienced the motor vibrating below a certain battery charge level ? 21700's unable to provide sufficient current as they fall below a certain charge level, a level higher than an equivalent 18650 battery pack ?

Its possible. It all depends how close to the mark the packs run at. Without knowing the peak current draw of the motor nor the cells/configuration used, it's would be impossible to say. But yea, if the 18650 pack is running at say 85% of it's peak output at full chat, theres every chance that a pack using 21700's with less in parallel could be getting maxed out.

 

[Planemo]

That sounds logical but I'm getting confused now. This link says that 21700 have more capacity and a higher max current 21700 Batteries, Are They Better Than 18650 Batteries?

All depends on which apples you compare to which oranges. 'Most' 21700's are 5000Mah with a max current (a proper current, not a wafty 1 second test) of 10A. Most 18650's are 3350~3500Mah, with the same max current.

 

[Phoenix]

Its possible. It all depends how close to the mark the packs run at. Without knowing the peak current draw of the motor nor the cells/configuration used, it's would be impossible to say. But yea, if the 18650 pack is running at say 85% of it's peak output at full chat, theres every chance that a pack using 21700's with less in parallel could be getting maxed out.

a business would never push the boundaries like that, would they!
So, in theory, if that is the case, quite a different bike could be produced by packing it with 18650s instead, one that could use the full torque of the EP8 ... interesting to see who does that first if this is indeed the case (maybe it already exists , i am not that close to the scene to know)

really appreciate your knowledge here, even if we are now in the realm of hypotheticals. Thank you

 

[Planemo]

Just found out that the Powertubes (at least in 500Wh) use 18650 in 10s4P config. But I still don't know what model cells are used, Bosch just seem to say 'quality cells from Panasonic, Sony, Samsung etc'. But using a top end cell as an example, the 500Wh powertube should be good for 40A output. If the manufacturers went down to 3P when using 21700's (I'm just guessing here though) to fit a similar sized case then you're looking at 30A. Does the motor draw 30A or more at peak? Dunno.

 

[Planemo]

So, in theory, if that is the case, quite a different bike could be produced by packing it with 18650s instead, one that could use the full torque of the EP8 ...

Or, use say a big case like a 750Wh, pack it full of 18650's to 500Wh but in a 6P format and really crank the Nm up...say hello to snapped chains

I'll ease off now, derailed this thread quite enough, sorry.

 

[Phoenix]

Or, use say a big case like a 750Wh, pack it full of 18650's to 500Wh but in a 6P format and really crank the Nm up...say hello to snapped chains

I'll ease off now, derailed this thread quite enough, sorry.

motocross chains maybe !
It has shed a lot of light on things, and OP is still with us so all good i think

 

[Longfellow78]

Or, use say a big case like a 750Wh, pack it full of 18650's to 500Wh but in a 6P format and really crank the Nm up...say hello to snapped chains

I'll ease off now, derailed this thread quite enough, sorry.

Hehe. No your input is very interesting. It sounds like the slimmer downtubeand larger cells leads to a configuration that produces less amps. I had read that those with the wrong firmware said that the power felt nowhere near 85nm as max. I am excited to ride it with 60nm, it sounds ideal especially as I am 145lbs so not too heavy.

 

[Phoenix]

Hehe. No your input is very interesting. It sounds like the slimmer downtubeand larger cells leads to a configuration that produces less amps. I had read that those with the wrong firmware said that the power felt nowhere near 85nm as max. I am excited to ride it with 60nm, it sounds ideal especially as I am 145lbs so not too heavy.

the question that now lingers for me is 'did orbea set out to build this bike or is it a product of 18650 battery shortages'
i am probably being too cynical and at end of the day people like it so who cares!
TBH i would guess the lead time on frame design would predate the shortages

 

[Longfellow78]

the question that now lingers for me is 'did orbea set out to build this bike or is it a product of 18650 battery shortages'
i am probably being too cynical and at end of the day people like it so who cares!
TBH i would guess the lead time on frame design would predate the shortages

Orbea were advertising the 21700 as a feature rather than a compromise though. If they felt it was a compromise, why mention it at all? It's all over their marketing material. Also yes the rise carbon must have been in development since way before pandemic so they wouldn't have known about shortages. The plot thickens!

 

[GolfChick]

I hear you! What tyres will you go for? the ones on the stock bike are already very light for 29ers without being made of paper. the rekon on the back is apparently pretty poor. I was planning on moving the dissector to the back, and putting a DHR II on the front for a good combo of weight and grip.

I'll be going for an Assegai EXO 3C 2.5 up front and then probably a DHR2 EXO 2.4 on the back, I'm a lightweight experienced rider so will add an extra bit of pressure compared to my manual bike and that should be fine. If needs be I'll fit a standard rimpact on the back but we'll see.

 

[Zimmerframe]

But using a top end cell as an example, the 500Wh powertube should be good for 40A output. If the manufacturers went down to 3P when using 21700's (I'm just guessing here though) to fit a similar sized case then you're looking at 30A. Does the motor draw 30A or more at peak? Dunno.

As an example, as you could see it/monitor it with the software, the Brose 2.1 was limited to 20A. So 36v*20a gives you a peak power of about 720w - though you would get slightly more sometimes on a freshly charged battery. The Brose 1.3 was limited to 16A - 576w peak, but after lots of testing they raised that to the same 20A as the 2.1 with a firmware update.

The 2.1 recently had a firmware update to introduce voltage compensation, I think some of the other motors do this to. So as the voltage drops (battery is used), the maximum current allowed increases so you don't get a drop in performance - therefore you'd be pulling more than 20A on the brose example.

I think the e8000/ep8 is limited to about 500-550w - so 14-16a ish.

 

[Planemo]

The 2.1 recently had a firmware update to introduce voltage compensation, I think some of the other motors do this to. So as the voltage drops (battery is used), the maximum current allowed increases so you don't get a drop in performance - therefore you'd be pulling more than 20A on the brose example.

Good info, cheers. I did suspect that most of the modern crank drives would be sucking between 20 and 30A. It would still be interesting to know whether they run the 21700 packs in 3P. I don't imagine we will know until someone tears one down.

 

[Planemo]

Orbea were advertising the 21700 as a feature rather than a compromise though.

Just like everyone else, it's not just ebikes. 21700 is a later design for sure, and thats why its touted as being 'best' but it was only ever intended to reduce costs, not improve performance. When Tesla et all were putting 1000's of cells into cars it makes financial and production run sense to have fewer of them, but bigger. Everyone else latched onto the 'they must be bestest, they are 5000mah' and now we are where we are. Theres nothing inherently wrong with 21700, it all comes down to what works best on the application at hand. But in terms of sheer performance, theres nowt wrong with 18650. In fact I would choose them any day for example on an EUC, where max current (high P configs in a limited space) is what saves you breaking bones. On ebikes it's not so critical, as long as you are still drawing well under the max A that 21700's can give, purely to retain cell longevity.

 

[Cinnamon]

I wonder if 34t chainring fits on H30 ? Or even 36t ?

 

[Underblu]

I have a Rise M20 and a Heckler MX-S. The Heckler is similar in weight to the H15 and has a similar sized battery. While I love both the Heckler and Rise equally, the weight differential makes a difference. The Heckler feels more plush while the M20 feels more poppy for lack of a better word. It really feels like a non motorized ebike. Sometimes I even ride the M20 with the motor turned off.

Battery life on the Rise has been great. It in eco mode it seems the Rise uses less battery than my Heckler despite the latter having greater capacity. However, to be fair, the Rise in eco mode requires a bit more effort than the Heckler. I highly recommend the M20. It’s a great bike. If I had to choose again I would take the M20s weight savings and carbon frame over the larger battery of the H15.

 

[Longfellow78]

I have a Rise M20 and a Heckler MX-S. The Heckler is similar in weight to the H15 and has a similar sized battery. While I love both the Heckler and Rise equally, the weight differential make a difference. The Heckler feels more plush while the M20 feels more poppy for lack of a better word. It really feels like a non motorized ebike. Sometimes I even ride the M20 with the motor turned off.

Battery life on the Rise has been great. It in eco mode it seems the Rise uses less battery than my Heckler despite the latter having greater capacity. However, to be fair, the Rise in eco mode requires a bit more effort than the Heckler. I highly recommend the M20. It’s a great bike. If I had to choose again I would take the M20s weight savings and carbon frame over the larger battery of the H15.

Thanks for the message and comparison. It has been a super hard choice, but I am going to stick with the H15 because even though I think the carbon one looks better and will be a little lighter, I am really worried about regret, as I can only ever afford to get a bike like this once, and I strongly feel that I won't regret the H15, as it will do everything I need it to do (as well as having more range and suspension performance) but if I get the M20, if they change the battery capacity in the future, or if I start doing longer rides or want to blast all day in boost and I can't - I will really regret my decision. So it's really fear that is driving me to the H15! I'm sure I won't regret it.....

 

[Underblu]

Imho, you can’t go wrong with either. Like I said, I love my 45lb Heckler MX-S which I believe has a similar weight and battery capacity to the H15. Afaic, midweight (around 45 lbs) and lightweight (around 40 lbs) are the way to go. One of the deciding factors for me buying the Heckler MX-S is that it is one of the few full power midweight bikes available. It ‘s nice that Orbea is providing a reasonably priced midweight alternative. Although I do think they should unlock the EP8 motor to its full 85nm given the H15s bigger battery and heavier weight. Congrats on your purchase!

Thanks for the message and comparison. It has been a super hard choice, but I am going to stick with the H15 because even though I think the carbon one looks better and will be a little lighter, I am really worried about regret, as I can only ever afford to get a bike like this once, and I strongly feel that I won't regret the H15, as it will do everything I need it to do (as well as having more range and suspension performance) but if I get the M20, if they change the battery capacity in the future, or if I start doing longer rides or want to blast all day in boost and I can't - I will really regret my decision. So it's really fear that is driving me to the H15! I'm sure I won't regret it.....

 

[RS456]

Hello @Underblu could you make a bit more in detail review of the heckler Mx vs orbea rise M or H. Especially power wise (also orbea with 85nm if you have tried that), range and agility on trials.
I have been dying to read some more feedback on both bikes compared to each other. Am 187cm with quite long legs (93cm inseam).
Thank you very much!

 

[Longfellow78]

Hello @Underblu could you make a bit more in detail review of the heckler Mx vs orbea rise M or H. Especially power wise (also orbea with 85nm if you have tried that), range and agility on trials.
I have been dying to read some more feedback on both bikes compared to each other. Am 187cm with quite long legs (93cm inseam).
Thank you very much!

I've literally flipped back twice today on the two bikes! There are weirdly just no reviews on the h15 or h10. Even from Rob. Waiting patiently....

 

[RS456]

Thanks @Underblu could you tell me your range on both bikes when riding in boost? (Which is what I do a lot)
Also a comment on support when riding both in this mode, thanks

 

[Longfellow78]

Thanks @Underblu could you tell me your range on both bikes when riding in boost? (Which is what I do a lot)
Also a comment on support when riding both in this mode, thanks

I would like to know this too. Boost especially.

 

[Longfellow78]

Ok, so I made a thought experiment to decide between the two bikes.

Imagine you are in the shop about to pay £5600 for your M20, or £6100 with a range extender.

The salesman says, hey we have this new version of the M20 in. We listened to customer feedback and upgraded the rear mech from SLX to XT. We upgraded the fork from a Fox 34 to a 36, and the shock from a DPS to a Float X, and we upgraded the bars and stem to race face, and also added a free ec7000 computer instead of that little LED box, but otherwise the spec is the same. We also took the range extender, and put it INSIDE the frame. It's the same weight, but has a little bit less power to let it fit in, so it's 180wh extra instead of 252wh, but that weight is distributed throughout the whole frame instead of one spot, so it feels a bit better than the M20 with a range extender. Oh yeah and it's £400 cheaper too and it's called the H15. Or you can just pay for £950 more for the M20 with the range extender if you like - up to you.

When I set out my thoughts like that, the answer is pretty obvious for me at least!

 

[CORC_Richard]

Ok, so I made a thought experiment to decide between the two bikes.

Imagine you are in the shop about to pay £5600 for your M20, or £6100 with a range extender.

The salesman says, hey we have this new version of the M20 in. We listened to customer feedback and upgraded the rear mech from SLX to XT. We upgraded the fork from a Fox 34 to a 36, and the shock from a DPS to a Float X, and we upgraded the bars and stem to race face, and also added a free ec7000 computer instead of that little LED box, but otherwise the spec is the same. We also took the range extender, and put it INSIDE the frame. It's the same weight, but has a little bit less power to let it fit in, so it's 180wh extra instead of 252wh, but that weight is distributed throughout the whole frame instead of one spot, so it feels a bit better than the M20 with a range extender. Oh yeah and it's £400 cheaper too and it's called the H15. Or you can just pay for £950 more for the M20 with the range extender if you like - up to you.

When I set out my thoughts like that, the answer is pretty obvious for me at least!

You can buy the M20 for £4,999 (call Sigma Sports). So for £5,400 you can have the M20 with range extender. A lighter bike for most of your riding and some cash to spare if you want to change anything else. Personally I think the choice is not to do with how much exactly one spec is over the other, at the end of the day both bikes are circa £5.5k. It's about what you will enjoy the most... fun, light, playfull or solid, planted, secure. Remember on mech, cassette, brakes, etc these all wear out so you can always replace with whatever component you want at that time. With the H15 you can never chose to go to a lighter bike, but with the M20 you can make it into a longer range heavier bike....

 

[Longfellow78]

You can buy the M20 for £4,999 (call Sigma Sports). So for £5,400 you can have the M20 with range extender. A lighter bike for most of your riding and some cash to spare if you want to change anything else. Personally I think the choice is not to do with how much exactly one spec is over the other, at the end of the day both bikes are circa £5.5k. It's about what you will enjoy the most... fun, light, playfull or solid, planted, secure. Remember on mech, cassette, brakes, etc these all wear out so you can always replace with whatever component you want at that time. With the H15 you can never chose to go to a lighter bike, but with the M20 you can make it into a longer range heavier bike....

Very excellent points. I unfortunately can't get the M20 for that price from them as the £4999 bike is in XL (also a colour I don't like). I am also doing the cycle scheme from work and they won't let you have a discount if you're doing the scheme - the woman I spoke to gave a very very confusing reponse and said, you could have the discount (if there was a sale on) but then they would need to add 10% to the price to cover their costs..... but the discount is only 11%! Very weird.

Anyway, now you have messed up my logic and I will have to buy the M20. Dammit!

 

[CORC_Richard]

Very excellent points. I unfortunately can't get the M20 for that price from them as the £4999 bike is in XL (also a colour I don't like). I am also doing the cycle scheme from work and they won't let you have a discount if you're doing the scheme - the woman I spoke to gave a very very confusing reponse and said, you could have the discount (if there was a sale on) but then they would need to add 10% to the price to cover their costs..... but the discount is only 11%! Very weird.

Anyway, now you have messed up my logic and I will have to buy the M20. Dammit!

That is strange. I called them and they agreed to sell the M20 in Blue to me at the lower price a few months back, but that was after a sale weekend.

 

[Longfellow78]

That is strange. I called them and they agreed to sell the M20 in Blue so me at the lower price a few months back, but that was after a sale weekend.

I called them just now and said could I have a discount on the blue m20 and he said no as the 2021 and 2022 were identical. the have an m10 on sale in my size in green, but thats too expensive for me, especially when they claw back 10% of my voucher value as it's discounted. So I will have to stick with RRP at the other shop. Oh well. Now I'm back to square 1 on the m20 vs h15 debate again. Will my pain ever end! lol

 

[Tubby G]

Just flip a coin

Heads: M20

Tails: H15 no dammit get the M20

 

[Snowrydr01]

If I didnt have a pile of parts from other bikes, I'd have the H15. I like the M20 as a concept but would need to upgrade too much of it and would end up weighing close to the H15 any and cost more since I'd be buying parts at retail or close to it.

 

[CORC_Richard]

I called them just now and said could I have a discount on the blue m20 and he said no as the 2021 and 2022 were identical. the have an m10 on sale in my size in green, but thats too expensive for me, especially when they claw back 10% of my voucher value as it's discounted. So I will have to stick with RRP at the other shop. Oh well. Now I'm back to square 1 on the m20 vs h15 debate again. Will my pain ever end! lol

You could try Surge bikes and see if they will price match. If not they would include £560 worth of accessories for full RRP, which would cover the range extender and other bits.

https://www.surgebikes.co.uk/shop/e-bikes/orbea-rise-m20/