H15 or M20 - paralysed by indecision!

[Longfellow78]

TLDR: Any M20 owners, would you have taken an alloy bike if it was available at the time?

After spending a lot time deciding on the rise over a full fat ebike (thanks for everyone who helped me decide on this great forum) I now have the same issue with the M20 vs H15.

Obviously I'd like to pay less, but cost is not really the issue spread over the lifetime of the bike. I like the colours of both bikes. My issue is:

I have always valued light weight over everything as a bike which is colouring my thinking probably.

I will probably replace the bar and stem on both bikes, and get a garmin edge 530 so the lack of display is no issue with the m20 (the h bikes come with a shimano ec7000 display as standard if you didn't know). Otherwise the drivetrain spec is pretty much identical apart from rear mech which makes no difference.

I weigh 147 lbs and don't do big jumps, so the 34 performance fork is plenty, I know the float X is better than the DPS, but I'm not that bothered really due to the overall weight saving.

It really comes down to the battery for me and nothing else. I do moderate rides of 20 to 30km, but would like to do longer with an ebike.

The bottom line is really, is 360wh enough, and will I ever get pissed off running out of battery (I will probably use boost a lot) vs the extra 2kg on the H bike, which "probably" has a better ride due to the upgraded suspension.
I would only rarely run out of battery I'd expect, and there is always the range extender (although now you're almost at the same weight and nearly £900 more - wife thinks I'm only spending 4k total).

One thought is, the 540wh battery is 50% bigger, which means if I want on the H, I could ride in boost a lot more often and end up with the same range, which would I would think easily offset the extra 2kg. Also I only ride with one friend who is stronger and has a full fat levo - I am a weaker rider and may hold him back with the smaller battery.

A final thought is that the m20 supposedly 2kg lighter than the h15. 500g of that is the increased battery size (900g on a ratio basis as new battery is proportionately lighter) 450g of that is the heavier suspension components. Hence the M20 is only actually 1kg lighter on a like for like comparison, or less if you cheat with battery calculations

So essentially you're paying £400 more for 750g adjusted diffence. How much is that worth it on an ebike? When you have the increased confidence in range?

Certainly on an analogue bike people would kill to have a 750g weight saving for that price.

I really am stumped.

Any thoughts appreciated? Thanks.

p.s. has anyone actually seen a ride review of the hydro bikes yet? They are for sale, but I see not a single actual review online, only overviews/previews.

Thanks.

 

[GMLS]

I am very happy with my M20 and bought a range extender as well but if the H15 was available I would have just gone for that for the reasons you've highlighted.Wouldn't see myself needing the extender. However my biggest mistake was buying a FF then upgrading my manual as well.The Rise is so flexible, it could do what both bikes can do and saved me a wedge. In your case you can over anayse these things and I don't think you'll regret whichever way you go but just make a decision

 

[Longfellow78]

I am very happy with my M20 and bought a range extender as well but if the H15 was available I would have just gone for that for the reasons you've highlighted.Wouldn't see myself needing the extender. However my biggest mistake was buying a FF then upgrading my manual as well.The Rise is so flexible, it could do what both bikes can do and saved me a wedge. In your case you can over anayse these things and I don't think you'll regret whichever way you go but just make a decision

Thanks a lot for the comment. I think you are probably right - I did think that if I get the h15 I will love it, and probably won't think "I wish I'd spent £400 (or £850 with the range extender) more, for a lighter bike I wouldn't feel the difference on" but if I want to do epic rides with a lot of boost and I run out of battery on the M20, I expect I would be raging! I also want to do the peaks, and wales, and maybe one day (Ha, never going to happen) The Alps. Then the H15 AND the range extender would be monstrous for range, and would still weigh less than most full fats. So it gives bombproof options. The only caveat to that is my weight weenie tendencies, and the idea of a fully upgraded sub 17kg ebike also sounds amazing. I'm stuck! Arrgh!

 

[Tubby G]

TLDR: Any M20 owners, would you have taken an alloy bike if it was available at the time?

After spending a lot time deciding on the rise over a full fat ebike (thanks for everyone who helped me decide on this great forum) I now have the same issue with the M20 vs H15.

Obviously I'd like to pay less, but cost is not really the issue spread over the lifetime of the bike. I like the colours of both bikes. My issue is:

I have always valued light weight over everything as a bike which is colouring my thinking probably.

I will probably replace the bar and stem on both bikes, and get a garmin edge 530 so the lack of display is no issue with the m20 (the h bikes come with a shimano ec7000 display as standard if you didn't know). Otherwise the drivetrain spec is pretty much identical apart from rear mech which makes no difference.

I weigh 147 lbs and don't do big jumps, so the 34 performance fork is plenty, I know the float X is better than the DPS, but I'm not that bothered really due to the overall weight saving.

It really comes down to the battery for me and nothing else. I do moderate rides of 20 to 30km, but would like to do longer with an ebike.

The bottom line is really, is 360wh enough, and will I ever get pissed off running out of battery (I will probably use boost a lot) vs the extra 2kg on the H bike, which "probably" has a better ride due to the upgraded suspension.
I would only rarely run out of battery I'd expect, and there is always the range extender (although now you're almost at the same weight and nearly £900 more - wife thinks I'm only spending 4k total).

One thought is, the 540wh battery is 50% bigger, which means if I want on the H, I could ride in boost a lot more often and end up with the same range, which would I would think easily offset the extra 2kg. Also I only ride with one friend who is stronger and has a full fat levo - I am a weaker rider and may hold him back with the smaller battery.

A final thought is that the m20 supposedly 2kg lighter than the h15. 900g of that is the increased battery size, 350g of that is the heavier suspension components. Hence the M20 is only actually 750g lighter on a like for like comparison.

So essentially you're paying £400 more of 750g. How much is that worth it on an ebike? When you have the increased confidence in range?

Certainly on an analogue bike people would kill to have a 750g weight saving for that price.

I really am stumped.

Any thoughts appreciated? Thanks.

p.s. has anyone actually seen a ride review of the hydro bikes yet? They are for sale, but I see not a single actual review online, only overviews/previews.

Thanks.

My partner has the M20 and I’m still on a full fat whilst my Rise is on order. She easily keeps up with my full fat, and an average days ride for us is around 35km. We both finish the day with around 20-30% battery. She rides in trail & boost mode, rarely uses Eco, and weighs in heavier than you at around 160lbs. Range anxiety is not something she ever experiences on the Rise

Now I’m a much heavier guy, around 220lbs, and am aware that my range will be reduced when the Rise arrives. However, knowing how light and easily manoeuvrable the Rise is compared to the full fat, I’m prepared to sacrifice some range for the fun of the ride. I have ordered the range extender too but judging by other Rise owners I’ll probably rarely use it

Also, when we first had the ebikes (both on full fats), we were out for longer XC rides and testing the range to the limits each weekend. Now that the eBike honeymoon period has worn off we’re mainly riding trails and are happy with a few hours saddle time each day. Occasionally we’ll still go out for longer rides, but just prefer seshing lines on repeat

What I’m trying to say is that, in our opinion, when you first purchase an emtb, range and battery power seem to be one of the most important deciding factors, but once you’ve had a bike for a while it’s the quality of the ride and the capability of the bike that matters

As my bike is still on order, I also thought about cancelling the carbon and going for a higher spec’d alu H model instead. However, knowing how awesome the carbon Rise is I decided to knock that idea on the head

 

[Longfellow78]

My partner has the M20 and I’m still on a full fat whilst my Rise is on order. She easily keeps up with my full fat, and an average days ride for us is around 35km. We both finish the day with around 20-30% battery. She rides in trail & boost mode, rarely uses Eco, and weighs in heavier than you at around 160lbs. Range anxiety is not something she ever experiences on the Rise

Now I’m a much heavier guy, around 220lbs, and am aware that my range will be reduced when the Rise arrives. However, knowing how light and easily manoeuvrable the Rise is compared to the full fat, I’m prepared to sacrifice some range for the fun of the ride. I have ordered the range extender too but judging by other Rise owners I’ll probably rarely use it

Also, when we first had the ebikes (both on full fats), we were out for longer XC rides and testing the range to the limits each weekend. Now that the eBike honeymoon period has worn off we’re mainly riding trails and are happy with a few hours saddle time each day. Occasionally we’ll still go out for longer rides, but just prefer seshing lines on repeat

What I’m trying to say is that, in our opinion, when you first purchase an emtb, range and battery power seem to be one of the most important deciding factors, but once you’ve had a bike for a while it’s the quality of the ride and the capability of the bike that matters

As my bike is still on order, I also thought about cancelling the carbon and going for a higher spec’d alu H model instead. However, knowing how awesome the carbon Rise is I decided to knock that idea on the head

Thanks for awesome post. Heart says m20, head says h15. Knowing what I'm like, I will probably go carbon.

 

[GolfChick]

I have to say I agree with your weight weenie tendancies, when I'm buying anything for my manual bike I also question whether there is a lighter not criminally more expensive option and I'll go for that. Hence I have DT Swiss 240 hubs rather than the 350, just because of saving some weight.

Having said that I have the H15 on order for Feb arrival, for me it was all about the battery and therefore the range and the carbon model just wouldn't have cut it with then the cost of the extender on the top. I can already ride 4000ft of elevation on a 20 mile or so ride with my own legs and not need an ebike but I'm hoping this way I can do that sort of ride without needing a day off beforehand or afterwards. Cost was also a factor for me, I have a super duper expensive manual bike already, this is only for ride 4 in a row with my fella on his full fat ebike so I didn't want to shell out a lottery winning amount.

Having said all that, I'm already planning on sticking some carbon bars are and sticking to lighter weight tyres!

 

[Longfellow78]

Ok. been obsessively thinking and analysing this and think I've come to a decision: The H15.

The more capable fork and shock account for 450 grams of weight but I expect will result in a noticeably better descending experience. Indeed many people might want to upgrade to the Fox 36 and Float X anyway - which is what is on the M10, hence shrinking the weight difference anyway.

The larger battery on the H15 weighs exactly 500g more (interesting on a like for like basis it is "worth" actually 900g more compared to the weight and capacity of the 360wh battery as they have made it more efficient).

So in like for like comparisons, as long as you use the battery capacity of the H15, and don't need an extender, add the heavier suspension the M20 is only 1kg in frame lighter.

The H15 will also allow 50% more "juice" for every scenario due to the 50% larger battery, meaning more boost/support can be used on climbs for the same range. This will surely more than account for the extra weight on long, tiring rides.

- So you get a bike that objectively descends better due to suspension
- Climbs better if you factor in being able to draw more assitance from the motor for any given ride
- Reduced battery anxiety
- With (maybe) marginally less low speed handling on slow technical terrain due to slightly higher weight, but probably not very noticeable as the weight is spread throughout the frame, unlike an extended battery which is lumped in one place.
- Cheaper, and hence can also spend the extra money on upgrades, such as lighter stem, bars, and a lightweight dropper (a Funn 35mm stem and lightweight carbon bar, and a lightweight dropper would save 400g+).
- With a "free" ec7000 computer included
- Marginally better spec overall which realistically makes no difference (XT vs SLX rear mech, better bars and stem, otherwise identical).
- A battery extender will allow an enormous range if ever needed for epic trips to very difficult terrain.

Finally, with my pointless theorycrafting and self-justification, if you spend the extra money on some lighter bits you can take 450g off the M20 (you could of course do the same for the M20) but you end up with the stock M20 being only 400 to 500g lighter than the modded H15 on a (somewhat contrived) like for like basis.

Edited: Final thought which Carbon owners will hate - Orbea have used some kind of different battery configuration for the H, which means an increase of 50% capacity, but only an increase in weight of 22%. I wonder if in future this means that in future they could reconfigure the carbon battery in the same way and increase the battery capacity. Might not be possiblbe due to the frame sizing, but if they somehow could, and (if my maths is right) it might go from 360wh to 442wh for no weight penalty. Perhaps they might only need one battery extender model instead of two and only one charger type (they use different sockets I think) as both bikes would use the same battery setup. Might be total rubbish as I have no idea how the batteries work, but I would feel like crap if I bought the Carbon one, and in 2023 they increased the battery size.

All of these factors lead me to the H15!

Thanks for reading my post

 

[Longfellow78]

I have to say I agree with your weight weenie tendancies, when I'm buying anything for my manual bike I also question whether there is a lighter not criminally more expensive option and I'll go for that. Hence I have DT Swiss 240 hubs rather than the 350, just because of saving some weight.

Having said that I have the H15 on order for Feb arrival, for me it was all about the battery and therefore the range and the carbon model just wouldn't have cut it with then the cost of the extender on the top. I can already ride 4000ft of elevation on a 20 mile or so ride with my own legs and not need an ebike but I'm hoping this way I can do that sort of ride without needing a day off beforehand or afterwards. Cost was also a factor for me, I have a super duper expensive manual bike already, this is only for ride 4 in a row with my fella on his full fat ebike so I didn't want to shell out a lottery winning amount.

Having said all that, I'm already planning on sticking some carbon bars are and sticking to lighter weight tyres!

I hear you! What tyres will you go for? the ones on the stock bike are already very light for 29ers without being made of paper. the rekon on the back is apparently pretty poor. I was planning on moving the dissector to the back, and putting a DHR II on the front for a good combo of weight and grip.

 

[Tubby G]

I hear you! What tyres will you go for? the ones on the stock bike are already very light for 29ers without being made of paper. the rekon on the back is apparently pretty poor. I was planning on moving the dissector to the back, and putting a DHR II on the front for a good combo of weight and grip.

That’s exactly what I did with my OH’s Rise

 

[Shjay]

M20, I wanted bottom of range as I was swapping most parts out I already had. Am over 90kg & don’t worry about range anxiety can easily do more range than I could on my old Vitus e-Sommet with the E7000 motor, the frame & battery is 1.4kg difference Alloy & carbon

 

[Longfellow78]

M20, I wanted bottom of range as I was swapping most parts out I already had. Am over 90kg & don’t worry about range anxiety can easily do more range than I could on my old Vitus e-Sommet with the E7000 motor, the frame & battery is 1.4kg difference Alloy & carbon

Yes 1.4kg, Would have been easier if i had just written that instead of an essay, hehe.

 

[Phoenix]

<snip>

Final thought which Carbon owners will hate - Orbea are using new battery technology, which means an increase of 50% capacity, results in an increase in weight of only 22%. This means that in future Orbea could use the same new battery technology in the Carbon rise, and increase the battery capacity (if my maths is right) from 360wh to 442wh for no weight penalty. This would also mean they would only need to produce one battery extender model instead of two and only one charger type (they use different sockets I think) as both bikes would use the same battery tech.

I would feel like crap if I bought the Carbon one, and in 2023 they increased the battery size by 82wh, whereas this can't happen with the alloy bikes.

All of these factors lead me to the H15!

Thanks for reading my post

I'm not hating or questioning your maths (recent carbon buyer here!), but where did you find this info re different battery tech in the H vs M. I know they are using 21700 cells in the M and I believe most other bikes use 18650 cells, so I'm not sure this info is correct. Happy to be wrong, if you can point me at a source, but my understanding was that using 21700's is the 'new battery tech', and I had guessed they were using it in both. I am aware thay the connectors are different for M and H for currently unknown reasons.Caveat - I have not researched the H series in depth

 

[Longfellow78]

I'm not hating or questioning your maths (recent carbon buyer here!), but where did you find this info re different battery tech in the H vs M. I know they are using 21700 cells in the M and I believe most other bikes use 18650 cells, so I'm not sure this info is correct. Happy to be wrong, if you can point me at a source, but my understanding was that using 21700's is the 'new battery tech', and I had guessed they were using it in both. I am aware thay the connectors are different for M and H for currently unknown reasons.Caveat - I have not researched the H series in depth

Ah maybe I misunderstood what I was reading. I don't recall where it was, but I read there was a reason for why they had made the two range extenders not compatible with one another, as they charged in different ways, and also discharged at different rates, perhaps due to the cell configuration. That, coupled with the fact that the 540wh battery is more efficient for its weight than the 360wh 2.2kg, vs 2,7kg, maybe made me jump to an inaccurate conclusion. As to why the 540wh is more efficient for its weight than the 360wh, I don't know.

Thinking more about it, it is perhaps unlikely they can do what I suggested, because the carbon has a smaller downtube diameter, that may prohibit putting in more cells or reconfiguring them. I was just speculating really. I might re-edit my post. thanks.

I edited my post to sound less like I knew what I was talking about. Will see if i can find the source where it talks about the batteries.

 

[Phoenix]

Ah maybe I misunderstood what I was reading. I don't recall where it was, but I read there was a reason for why they had made the two range extenders not compatible with one another, as they charged in different ways, and also discharged at different rates, perhaps due to the cell configuration. That, coupled with the fact that the 540wh battery is more efficient for its weight than the 360wh 2.2kg, vs 2,7kg, maybe made me jump to an inaccurate conclusion. As to why the 540wh is more efficient for its weight than the 360wh, I don't know.

Thinking more about it, it is perhaps unlikely they can do what I suggested, because the carbon has a smaller downtube diameter, that may prohibit putting in more cells or reconfiguring them. I was just speculating really. I might re-edit my post. thanks.

I edited my post to sound less like I knew what I was talking about. Will see if i can find the source where it talks about the batteries.

I am definitely not full informed on the topic, so any information you dig up will be gratefully received
Wasn't aware that the extra weight of the 540wH was so little - you may be correct about different tech ... or witchcraft ...
Yeh, also saw that the carbon has a smaller downtube, but was not sure if that was for structural reasons or that they made the alloy bigger to accommodate a bigger battery

So many unanswered questions!

PS. I'm followed my heart not head, and went with the low weight option - can always carry a 2nd range extender

 

[Longfellow78]

Good for you! I am 90% sure on the H15 for me. Now just the wait.

 

[Phoenix]

Found this in the blurb :

'In real terms, this means that its integral 360Wh battery alone, its range is comparable with a 540Wh battery capacity on a typical crank driven eBike. Housed in a brand new all-alloy construction case and using the latest in lithium-ion cell technology, its internal 21700 form factor cells offer much higher energy density, with much less space and weight. Citing "over 4 hours of ride time", the battery weighs just 2.2kg with the option range extender offering an additional 70% capacity - comparable to 900Wh on a conventional eBike '

and

'In real terms, this means that its integral 540Wh battery alone, its range is comparable with a 800Wh battery capacity on a typical crank driven eBike. Housed in a brand new all-alloy construction case and using the latest in lithium-ion cell technology, its internal 21700 form factor cells offer much higher energy density, with much less space and weight. Adding the range extender further increases the capacity to an equivalent 1200Wh of capacity!'

So, those ratios are almost the same (540/360=1.5, 800/540=1.48) and the tech 'sounds' the same. No weight number there for the 540Wh battery. I guess it would make sense that there would be at least some marginal gains in power to weight ratio if constructed the same way as some parts would not need to be scaled up/changed, but the 2.7kg vs 2.2kg (23% increase) for 50% more power is something I'd like to hear an explanation of ...

Glad you've almost made up your mind!

 

[Longfellow78]

Found this in the blurb :

'In real terms, this means that its integral 360Wh battery alone, its range is comparable with a 540Wh battery capacity on a typical crank driven eBike. Housed in a brand new all-alloy construction case and using the latest in lithium-ion cell technology, its internal 21700 form factor cells offer much higher energy density, with much less space and weight. Citing "over 4 hours of ride time", the battery weighs just 2.2kg with the option range extender offering an additional 70% capacity - comparable to 900Wh on a conventional eBike '

and

'In real terms, this means that its integral 540Wh battery alone, its range is comparable with a 800Wh battery capacity on a typical crank driven eBike. Housed in a brand new all-alloy construction case and using the latest in lithium-ion cell technology, its internal 21700 form factor cells offer much higher energy density, with much less space and weight. Adding the range extender further increases the capacity to an equivalent 1200Wh of capacity!'

So, those ratios are almost the same (540/360=1.5, 800/540=1.48) and the tech 'sounds' the same. No weight number there for the 540Wh battery. I guess it would make sense that there would be at least some marginal gains in power to weight ratio if constructed the same way as some parts would not need to be scaled up/changed, but the 2.7kg vs 2.2kg (23% increase) for 50% more power is something I'd like to hear an explanation of ...

Glad you've almost made up your mind!

Yes the 540w is definately 2.7kg. I'm not totally convinced by their range predictions. Those 1.5x a normal battery estimate is based on more rider input needed because of less assistance. The battery is not literally more efficient, just they say it lasts 1.5x as long as the motor gives less. I guess that is logical.... But you could set your regular ep8 to do the same thing so it's a bit of a stretch imo.

 

[Phoenix]

Yes the 540w is definately 2.7kg. I'm not totally convinced by their range predictions. Those 1.5x a normal battery estimate is based on more rider input needed because of less assistance. The battery is not literally more efficient, just they say it lasts 1.5x as long as the motor gives less. I guess that is logical.... But you could set your regular ep8 to do the same thing so it's a bit of a stretch imo.

Agreed, marketing team working overtime here!

 

[Sgur]

Test nouveauté | Orbea Rise H10 aluminium : saveur préservée ⋆ Vojo

Vous avez certainement entendu parler de l’Orbea Rise, l’e-bike léger de la marque espagnole. Sur base du succès de la version carbone, Orbea a décidé de sortir une déclinaison en aluminium, qui plus est dotée d’une plus grosse batterie de 540Wh contre 360Wh pour le grand frère. L’esprit « VTT à...

www.vojomag.com

I found this article where they comment differences between M and H versions. According to them, differences are not that notables…

 

[faberle]

@Longfellow78 , which ever you finally choose you will LOVE it ! The more I ride this Rise, the more I like it. My regular near home track is about 600M denivelation and 15km, normally using a bit less than half the 360 Wh battery. Haven't used my extender after 9 month. I even tried my track with no assist for about half the climb (300m), got to the top with a bit more wet tee-shirt but the smile was the same. I mounted a SRAM 10-52 cassette which helps in the steep. Finally, an empty battery doesn't mean being stuck which greatly reduces this range paranoia that many of us seem to have. This is one BIG advantage of the Rise over any FF.

 

[Planemo]

I'm not totally convinced by their range predictions. Those 1.5x a normal battery estimate is based on more rider input needed because of less assistance. The battery is not literally more efficient, just they say it lasts 1.5x as long as the motor gives less. I guess that is logical.... But you could set your regular ep8 to do the same thing so it's a bit of a stretch imo.

Agreed. Theres no way a 21700 celled 360Wh pack would be comparable to a 18650 celled 540Wh. Not unless the 540 pack used bloody awful cells or, as you say, it isn't supplying the same output.

Theres nothing magical about any readily available 21700 cell. Slightly better than a 18650 in some circumstances, but not orders of magnitude. All depends on what you are asking of the cells, but 21700 isn't always the answer. The main benefit of decent 18650's is current output given you can parallel more of them together for the same size case/voltage. A Sanyo 18650GA is not to be sniffed at - 10A for a single cell which is about the same as a decent 21700 LG M50T (which is obviously quite a bit bigger).

The main reason for 21700's hitting the ebike market is due to a worldwide shortage and lower pack build costs compared to decent 18650's. They run pretty much the same chemistry as any other Li-Ion, not fairy dust.

A lot of companies in my other hobby (electric unicycles) have had to go for 21700's due to the above. Unfortunately due to space limitations they also had to go down from 10P packs (which I run - 240 x 18650 cells at 100.8v) to 6P. Given the 21700's don't output any more current per cell, many riders maxed out the available current and promptly face planted, causing all manner of nasty injuries. I appreciate that most ebikes don't draw anything like the same current, but the more you can parallel the better (within reason), if only for cell longevity.

 

[Phoenix]

Agreed. Theres no way a 21700 celled 360Wh pack would be comparable to a 18650 celled 540Wh. Not unless the 540 pack used bloody awful cells or, as you say, it isn't supplying the same output.

Theres nothing magical about any readily available 21700 cell. Slightly better than a 18650 in some circumstances, but not orders of magnitude. All depends on what you are asking of the cells, but 21700 isn't always the answer. The main benefit of decent 18650's is current output given you can parallel more of them together for the same size case/voltage. A Sanyo 18650GA is not to be sniffed at - 10A for a single cell which is about the same as a decent 21700 LG M50T (which is obviously quite a bit bigger).

The main reason for 21700's hitting the ebike market is due to a worldwide shortage and lower pack build costs compared to decent 18650's. They run pretty much the same chemistry as any other Li-Ion, not fairy dust.

A lot of companies in my other hobby (electric unicycles) have had to go for 21700's due to the above. Unfortunately due to space limitations they also had to go down from 10P packs (which I run - 240 x 18650 cells at 100.8v) to 6P. Given the 21700's don't output any more current per cell, many riders maxed out the available current and promptly face planted, causing all manner of nasty injuries. I appreciate that most ebikes don't draw anything like the same current, but the more you can parallel the better (within reason), if only for cell longevity.

Based on this, how would say that a 360Wh 21700 battery would compare with a 360Wh 18650 battery pack in an e-bike? Less peak power so a bit longer lasting but slower (for same rider input and motor)?

 

[Planemo]

Based on this, how would say that a 360Wh 21700 battery would compare with a 360Wh 18650 battery pack in an e-bike? Less peak power so a bit longer lasting but slower (for same rider input and motor)?

You have the same voltage and same Wh, so assuming both battery housings are the same and the 18650 pack is taking up all the available space, the 21700 has to by default run less in parallel because the cells are bigger. So less current potential. If the draw isn't too high though, not a problem and both packs would have a similar amount of run time.

Taking my unicycle as an example - 18650 in 10P gives a 100A potential. The 6P wheels running LG 21700's only have, not surprisingly, 60A. Both wheels have the same voltage and similar Wh. Again, hitting the battery current limit on an ebike is not so dramatic though. I don't know what P would be sufficient for a crank drive as I don't know what the required current draw is. Plus the ebike manufacturers seem to keep their cell data quite close to their chest - I have no idea even what cells are in my Powertube.

 

[Longfellow78]

Test nouveauté | Orbea Rise H10 aluminium : saveur préservée ⋆ Vojo

Vous avez certainement entendu parler de l’Orbea Rise, l’e-bike léger de la marque espagnole. Sur base du succès de la version carbone, Orbea a décidé de sortir une déclinaison en aluminium, qui plus est dotée d’une plus grosse batterie de 540Wh contre 360Wh pour le grand frère. L’esprit « VTT à...

www.vojomag.com

I found this article where they comment differences between M and H versions. According to them, differences are not that notables…

Thanks will read/translate

 

[Longfellow78]

@Longfellow78 , which ever you finally choose you will LOVE it ! The more I ride this Rise, the more I like it. My regular near home track is about 600M denivelation and 15km, normally using a bit less than half the 360 Wh battery. Haven't used my extender after 9 month. I even tried my track with no assist for about half the climb (300m), got to the top with a bit more wet tee-shirt but the smile was the same. I mounted a SRAM 10-52 cassette which helps in the steep. Finally, an empty battery doesn't mean being stuck which greatly reduces this range paranoia that many of us seem to have. This is one BIG advantage of the Rise over any FF.

Awesome comment, thanks.

 

[Longfellow78]

You have the same voltage and same Wh, so assuming both battery housings are the same and the 18650 pack is taking up all the available space, the 21700 has to by default run less in parallel because the cells are bigger. So less current potential. If the draw isn't too high though, not a problem and both packs would have a similar amount of run time.

Taking my unicycle as an example - 18650 in 10P gives a 100A potential. The 6P wheels running LG 21700's only have, not surprisingly, 60A. Both wheels have the same voltage and similar Wh. Again, hitting the battery current limit on an ebike is not so dramatic though. I don't know what P would be sufficient for a crank drive as I don't know what the required current draw is. Plus the ebike manufacturers seem to keep their cell data quite close to their chest - I have no idea even what cells are in my Powertube.

You seem to be quite expert in battery technology. Both the 360 and 540 batteries are 21700 right? The Orbea marketing BS claims that their ebike batteries retain more capacity over more charges than the competiton. 80% at 500 charges if I recall. No idea what that is about.

Do you have any idea why/how the 540wh can be 50% more capacity for only 22% more weight though? It will always be a tiny bit like that due to the casing being less efficient in terms of material the small you go, but I assume the casing is a very small amount of the weight, so there must be something weird going on for such a discrepancy....

 

[Planemo]

You seem to be quite expert in battery technology.

Far from an expert, but it doesn't take too much intellect to compare datasheets between 18650's and 21700's

Both the 360 and 540 batteries are 21700 right?

No idea, the last question given to me was comparing 2 different cells in the same Wh pack.

The Orbea marketing BS claims that their ebike batteries retain more capacity over more charges than the competiton. 80% at 500 charges if I recall. No idea what that is about.

Maybe they aren't charging them to max. Even going to 4.1v instead of 4.2v per cell will give a hefty increase in longevity. Maybe they think they are using better quality cells than the competition. But as I said earlier, getting the cell manufacturer/model from the bike makers doesn't seem easy. Usually I would be quite happy pulling a pack apart to find out, but afaik you can't even pull a Powertube apart without risking bricking it in some way.

Do you have any idea why/how the 540wh can be 50% more capacity for only 22% more weight though?

Couldn't answer that, sorry. I have never looked at weights, only cell performance Vs size.

 

[Phoenix]

You have the same voltage and same Wh, so assuming both battery housings are the same and the 18650 pack is taking up all the available space, the 21700 has to by default run less in parallel because the cells are bigger. So less current potential. If the draw isn't too high though, not a problem and both packs would have a similar amount of run time.

Taking my unicycle as an example - 18650 in 10P gives a 100A potential. The 6P wheels running LG 21700's only have, not surprisingly, 60A. Both wheels have the same voltage and similar Wh. Again, hitting the battery current limit on an ebike is not so dramatic though. I don't know what P would be sufficient for a crank drive as I don't know what the required current draw is. Plus the ebike manufacturers seem to keep their cell data quite close to their chest - I have no idea even what cells are in my Powertube.

OK, I think I'm getting this. The same volume (to negate size and shape issues) of same quality 18650's and 21700's would have the same potential run time, but the 21700 pack would have a lower peak power, which if utilised in the 18650s would drain them quicker.
Is that lower peak power a possible reason why Orbea have limited the EP8 motor on the Rise to 60Nm, and why some people who have used software changes to increase the motor power have experienced the motor vibrating below a certain battery charge level ? 21700's unable to provide sufficient current as they fall below a certain charge level, a level higher than an equivalent 18650 battery pack ?


Thank you for your patience and for sharing your knowledge with us

@Longfellow78 - yes, the documents specify both are 21700's

 

[Longfellow78]

OK, I think I'm getting this. The same volume (to negate size and shape issues) of same quality 18650's and 21700's would have the same potential run time, but the 21700 pack would have a lower peak power, which if utilised in the 18650s would drain them quicker.
Is that lower peak power a possible reason why Orbea have limited the EP8 motor on the Rise to 60Nm, and why some people who have used software changes to increase the motor power have experienced the motor vibrating below a certain batteryvcharge level ? 21700's unable to provide sufficient current as they fall below a certain charge level, a level higher than an equivalent 18650 battery pack ?


Thank you for your patience and for sharing your knowledge with us

@Longfellow78 - yes, the documents specify both are 21700's

 

[Longfellow78]

That sounds logical but I'm getting confused now. This link says that 21700 have more capacity and a higher max current 21700 Batteries, Are They Better Than 18650 Batteries?