Gravel over hardpack what's best?

[ragnor]

At present the bike has the stock Bontrager SE5/6 fitted. I would describe these as scary on loose gravel over hardpack. Now my bike control is pretty sh1t anyway but these tyres aren't helping. Going downhill is likely to cure any hint of constipation but broken bones & contusions at my age isn't what I'm looking for.

So I know that this is a how long is a piece of string question but I'll ask anway. What's best for looose gravel over hardpack. They can be rubbish in mud as that's not really my scene. Easy rolling or is that asking too much. I suppose cross country/trail/enduro might cover what I do as steep downhill single track isn't for me. Reasonably puncture proof so nice thick sidewall would be nice. Size 29" x 2.5 preferred. Tubeless of course.

Do such tyres exist or do I have to be resigned to swearing my way around routes and scaring the deer.

 

[RustyIron]

What's best for looose gravel over hardpack.

Best? Ride slow, upright, and don't make drastic moves?
Bwahahahahaha!
You asked!

I live in the land of Loose Over Hard. I like an Assegai out front and a DHR II in the rear. If there's a featureless turn, I really do slow down and keep it more upright. Even so, sometimes the bike slides more than I'm comfortable with, but I find these tires somewhat predictable and recoverable.

Do such tyres exist or do I have to be resigned to swearing my way around routes and scaring the deer.

Maybe you'll find better tires, but they'll just make you faster, and eventually you'll start sliding all over the place again. You'll be in the same boat as you are now: sliding, swearing, yelling, and frighting wildlife, hikers, and little children.

 

[RebornRider]

My regular ride in NorCal is loose over hard pack with some off camber tight corners thrown in. Oh yeah, and some of those have bone breaking steep dropoffs if you skid off the trail. I decided a few years back that a full fat Turbo Levo means I don't have to care about rolling resistance, so I run Assegais front and rear, 22psi F / 23 psi R. The trail can get pretty close to Hero Dirt (Hero Clay) in the spring when the ground is slightly damp, but it is now Major Pucker if I go in to a corner a bit too fast.

 

[ragnor]

Best? Ride slow, upright, and don't make drastic moves?
Bwahahahahaha!

Describes me & my "technique"to a T.

"You'll be in the same boat as you are now: sliding, swearing, yelling, and frighting wildlife, hikers, and little children." Although the guys in the digger that I passed probably didn't hear me but just wondered if they might have to pick up the bits later.

Thanks anyway for the reply.

 

[ragnor]

My regular ride in NorCal is loose over hard pack with some off camber tight corners thrown in. Oh yeah, and some of those have bone breaking steep dropoffs if you skid off the trail. I decided a few years back that a full fat Turbo Levo means I don't have to care about rolling resistance, so I run Assegais front and rear, 22psi F / 23 psi R. The trail can get pretty close to Hero Dirt (Hero Clay) in the spring when the ground is slightly damp, but it is now Major Pucker if I go in to a corner a bit too fast.

Thanks for the info.

 

[Husky430]

Look for some videos on youtube about "tipping" the bike in whilst cornering while keeping your body upright, weighting the outside pedal, seems to really help me with those side knobs on the tyres, that never used to wear out, actually doing some work.
I think the other name the call it is "Body bike separation". Just my 2 cents worth and what works for one is not universal but can't hurt unless you crash of course.

 

[Mikerb]

Assegais are good all round tyres but dusty over hardpack is not their forte. For dry hard conditions I use DHF on the front and Dissector on the back

 

[ragnor]

Thanks for the thoughts. Research on the net can be great but nothing beats actual experience. Research indicates that the new Michelin E Wild (2.6) might be good. Crap on tarmac (high wear rate) but good on loose & dry if your pressures are correct. A bitch to fit apparently. Is any of that correct? Anyone running them in marbles over hard pack?

As regards body/bike position keeping the bike in anything resembling a straight line was somewhat squeaky bum time. Turning was getting close to bail out time. Ho hum.

 

[RustyMTB]

Endless loose gravel here too. I run an Assegai/DHR. That's good enough for world cup racers to hit 40mph down mountains but on these surfaces, might as well be slicks. Ultimately putting lateral forces into a surface that's disconnected from the one below is never a recipe for grip.

 

[Mikerb]

I have used the Michelin Wild Enduro (not EWild) and it's a great front tyre. No problem fitting it. A good tip for any tyre is to remove it from its packaging a day before fitting and lay it flat somewhere warm.

 

[arTNC]

Look for some videos on youtube about "tipping" the bike in whilst cornering while keeping your body upright, weighting the outside pedal, seems to really help me with those side knobs on the tyres, that never used to wear out, actually doing some work.
I think the other name the call it is "Body bike separation". Just my 2 cents worth and what works for one is not universal but can't hurt unless you crash of course.

What you suggest is what I find to work...at least work best. Loose material over hardpack is the perfect definition of marbles on a cement floor. There is no awesome traction. You just have to deal with it by slower speed, and as you point out here, as ideal a body weight placement as you can apply. The method of upright body weight to center over the leaned bike seems to work as well as anything. It's even what lots of dirt motorcycle guys do.

As to tires, I live in west Texas where loose material over hardpack is the rule. I've never been one to say that there is only one brand or model of tire that will work for riders...different bikes, different terrain, different riders, etc. I use Maxxis DHF/DHR's...at least 2.6 for my Rail 7...in my neck of the woods..."woods", let me rephrase that...dry, rocky, loose material over hardpack ...and they work as well as anything I've use. We're a Trek dealer so we sell Bontrager, and I've tried the SE5/6 models, and I did not like them...but it was from cutting the tires instead of the traction. Bontrager is completely changing their tire lineup, names, and design here in the near future from what we're told.

 

[Mikerb]

I think it helps to understand the dynamics of leaning the bike. If you lean the bike over for a corner and also lean your body at the same angle you are in fact increasing the forces pushing the tyres outwards..........not good! unless it is a berm with a decent banking). You do however need to lean the bike to engage the side knobs. So if you lean the bike to engage the side knobs but keep you body vertical, you are using your weight to force the tyres into the ground.
Also consider the knob pattern on whatever front tyre you choose to use. Some tyres have a continuous channel with no knobs between the centre knobs and the side knobs ( channeled tyre design). For that design of tyre you need be pretty quick leaning the bike over so that there is a quick transition from using the centre knobs to the side knobs. If you lean the bike gradually...or not enough........you will encounter the somewhat disconcerting period of virtually no grip due to that channel before a sufficient angle is achieved to engage the side knobs.
You will know if you are leaning the bike but staying more upright yourself by the fact that your inside knee needs to be angled out enough to make room for the top tube of the frame. Similarly your inside arm will be virtually straight whist the outside arm will be very angled at the elbow.

 

[ragnor]

Thanks for the replies. I'm not carping as all information can be useful but I have a reasonable idea of how to corner garnered over many many years of running bikes. The Bontragers didn't work at all in even in a straight line whether braking or not. Yes I also know that no tyre is the magic bullet for a positive grip in marbles over hardpack. Having said that I've tried other bikes & tyres in similar conditions where just about any tyre barring slicks worked better than the Bontragers. That's just my point of view based on the conditions & the equipment.

As regards actual tyre choice info is noted & I'll think what's probably best based on the type of riding that I do.

Cheers

 

[wanderingjim]

I've been pretty happy with Continental Argotal 2.6 on my mountain bike in pretty much any conditions (Trail/Endurance). When the Minion DHF on my wife's Rise wears out I'll probably replace it with the Argotal Endurance Soft, wear rate even on tarmac shouldn't be too bad on the front.

 

[spurty30]

Just my two pennies worth but I've run schwalbe Hans dampf front and rear now for 2k miles mostly on gravel over bed rock here in northern Scotland and have to say they grip really well. Not so good in really sloppy mud ( not much is) but for what you describe they hold a line really well on a corner and using body bike separation the side knobs bite really well . If they do slide they are pretty predictable and recoverable. Not had a puncture yet running 24 psi front and rear on 29" X 2.60. other bonus is they are reversible so once the sharp edge on the knobs goes you can turn em round !!.

 

[arTNC]

I may have mentioned above that I've been riding 2.6 DHF/DHR's front and rear on my Rail 7. Can't really complain for the terrain I ride on. However, I think I'm going to try a 2.6 Assegai front and a 2.5 Aggressor rear. I ride exclusively in hardpack, rocky, dry terrain with some loose over hardpack scattered all over. I see these two tires in a front/rear setup are supposed to be a pretty good choice for my conditions.

 

[Montana St Alum]

I may have mentioned above that I've been riding 2.6 DHF/DHR's front and rear on my Rail 7. Can't really complain for the terrain I ride on. However, I think I'm going to try a 2.6 Assegai front and a 2.5 Aggressor rear. I ride exclusively in hardpack, rocky, dry terrain with some loose over hardpack scattered all over. I see these two tires in a front/rear setup are supposed to be a pretty good choice for my conditions.

On my ebike, I don't worry too much about tire weight or rolling resistance. I'm running a Magic Mary up front and Big Betty on the back, both in Super Trail/soft. If I were to go back to Maxxis (which I might) I'd just run the Assegai front and back (maybe the DHRII on the back).
I've run the Assegai/Aggressor and DHF/Dissector on my mtb and like both front and back options, but the Dissectors wear too fast for me.

 

[arTNC]

On my ebike, I don't worry too much about tire weight or rolling resistance. I'm running a Magic Mary up front and Big Betty on the back, both in Super Trail/soft. If I were to go back to Maxxis (which I might) I'd just run the Assegai front and back (maybe the DHRII on the back).
I've run the Assegai/Aggressor and DHF/Dissector on my mtb and like tboth ftont and back options, but the Dissectors wear too fast for me.

So I just got my Assegai 2.6 front and 2.5 Aggressor in at the shop and have installed the front Assegai. I still have a fairly fresh DHRII on the rear. Did my first ride yesterday, and man, the Assegai really has the grip they claim. We've been really dry here for the last several weeks, and that tire bit through the loose gravel and kitty litter noticeably better than my DHF that I was running. I really had no issues with the DHF, but the claims from many sources about how grippy the Assegai is on dry surfaces got me curious. I can see staying with this tire for the front for sure in my conditions. My home conditions are much like Moab...good hardpack with embedded rocks, ledges and such, but also a good bit of kitty litter in places that promotes the tire letting go unexpectedly. That "unexpectedly" seems to be much less unexpectedly.

 

[Dax]

I like an Assegai out front and a DHR II in the rear.

This.

You need to lean the bike to engage the side knobs. So if you lean the bike to engage the side knobs but keep you body vertical, you are using your weight to force the tyres into the ground.

Also this.

I’ve been riding bikes for a few years and am reasonably good at riding around corners, but leading the bike under me while staying fairly vertical is a new one to me. I’ve been practicing this week…it works well.

 

[ragnor]

Well thanks for all the advice. As you can see I eventually went for the

Michelin E-Wild Racing Line 2.6​

Absolute magic for the conditions as originally detailed. Sooper draggy on tarmac but that's not what they're designed for. So at the moment like very much..

 

[Montana St Alum]

I think it helps to understand the dynamics of leaning the bike. If you lean the bike over for a corner and also lean your body at the same angle you are in fact increasing the forces pushing the tyres outwards..........not good! unless it is a berm with a decent banking). You do however need to lean the bike to engage the side knobs. So if you lean the bike to engage the side knobs but keep you body vertical, you are using your weight to force the tyres into the ground.
Also consider the knob pattern on whatever front tyre you choose to use. Some tyres have a continuous channel with no knobs between the centre knobs and the side knobs ( channeled tyre design). For that design of tyre you need be pretty quick leaning the bike over so that there is a quick transition from using the centre knobs to the side knobs. If you lean the bike gradually...or not enough........you will encounter the somewhat disconcerting period of virtually no grip due to that channel before a sufficient angle is achieved to engage the side knobs.
You will know if you are leaning the bike but staying more upright yourself by the fact that your inside knee needs to be angled out enough to make room for the top tube of the frame. Similarly your inside arm will be virtually straight whist the outside arm will be very angled at the elbow.

Yes, absolutely. It's a little like edging on skis.
Going from one direction into a turn in the other direction requires moving the frame from one side to the other. On my mountain bike, at 27 pounds, I can do this pretty quickly, so it's easy to get past the vague zone on the DHF quickly and engage the side knobs. For that bike, I do like the DHF - a lot! But on my ebike, at 46 pounds, I have to overcome the increase in inertia from the extra mass to get over onto the side knobs. In that case, I prefer the assegai, because that tire can overcome the flaws in my technique. I had been on the Magic Mary up front, but the side knobs have proven to be too soft and not supportive enough for the conditions in Utah. I'm back to the 29x2.6 Assegai up front and the 27.5x 2.6 DHRII on the back. For my conditions that works well. I've also heard good things about the Michelins, though!