Frame sets and not whole bikes? - Discuss

[Fivetones]

Given we’re all going to go crazy keeping away from our fellow humans perhaps this might make a nice discussion topic?

Quality analogue MTBs more often than not have a frameset or frameset/shock option available. We don’t see this at all yet (apart from maybe the very limited EU availability of the 2020 S-Works Levo afaik). Let’s face it we all have our favourite parts especially when it comes to contact points at the bare minimum so we buy full bikes and customise anyway.

Do we think EMTB frameset/motor/battery/shock combos will eventually happen? Which manufacturers will twig seriously first?

———
I also have a secondary question regarding how to value my own frames/motor/battery/shock. Due to serious ill health this year my Orange Surge Factory has been hardly used. Orange let you pretty much chose your dream parts for the build which is what I did So if I changed bikes I’d like want to retain them. How do I go about pricing this up? A new analogue Alpine 6 which is effectively the same bike no E8000/battery with Fox X2/Hope headset is £2635 does that help?

(Yes, I know Oranges are a marmite bike so no daft comments please but I much preferred buying local and supporting UK business and preferred the ride considerably compared to the Levo I tried.)

 

[p3eps]

So far scattered around my garage, I have...
Forks, stem, bar, brakes, dropper post (+ lever and cable), derailleur (+ shifter and cable) and tyres - all off my Levo SL. I have a new cassette, chain, grips and saddle on their way... so the stock ones will be in that pile soon too.

That just leaves the frame, wheels, rear shock, cranks and front chain ring! I have full intention of changing the cranks when the carbon ones are available... and may do the rear shock too.

Financially, I'm sure I'd have been much better off to buy just a frame, and fit all the bits myself.
I can probably sell off some of my "spare" components on eBay and get some sort of return on them - but it's unlikely I'll get back anything like what they would cost new - or more importantly, what my new bits cost.

I guess it depends what the frame only cost? If they did a frame only, they'd probably struggle to sell S-Works and Founders models, as people could probably build their own for cheaper.

 

[slippery pete]

The European regulations may be in a funny place where there are some controls even on the 25kmh limited pedelecs. There is a complex categorisation of componentry that may need specific certification for e-bike usage and when you get a full bike it will have a CE mark declaring its conformity. The manufacturer has a legal obligation within the framework of legislation. Not sure how current this is, but the version I've seen from 2018 looks like this:

https://www.zedler-fahrrad.de/files...teiletausch_E-Bike_25_Stand-08-05-2018_EN.pdf

Now, understanding that Britain is no longer an EU member I'm still not convinced this will be a priority area for deviating from European regulations.

The top end of the eMTB market where boutique frames jostle for attention and product managers try to target segments from €4k to €9k-and-above is not the general market. The legislation is going to be focused on commute and utility e-pedelecs. It makes the boutique frame-only proposition come with a bunch of baggage while mostly the kit on those €4k+ eMTBs is generally more capable than the minimum standards envisaged in the legislation. Not saying it is sensible. Just saying that access to European markets requires conformity so that might be why you're getting what you're seeing.

 

[slippery pete]

I'm not saying I pay any attention to the above.

 

[Fivetones]

The European regulations may be in a funny place where there are some controls even on the 25kmh limited pedelecs. There is a complex categorisation of componentry that may need specific certification for e-bike usage and when you get a full bike it will have a CE mark declaring its conformity. The manufacturer has a legal obligation within the framework of legislation. Not sure how current this is, but the version I've seen from 2018 looks like this:

https://www.zedler-fahrrad.de/files...teiletausch_E-Bike_25_Stand-08-05-2018_EN.pdf

Now, understanding that Britain is no longer an EU member I'm still not convinced this will be a priority area for deviating from European regulations.

The top end of the eMTB market where boutique frames jostle for attention and product managers try to target segments from €4k to €9k-and-above is not the general market. The legislation is going to be focused on commute and utility e-pedelecs. It makes the boutique frame-only proposition come with a bunch of baggage while mostly the kit on those €4k+ eMTBs is generally more capable than the minimum standards envisaged in the legislation. Not saying it is sensible. Just saying that access to European markets requires conformity so that might be why you're getting what you're seeing.

Good point I’d not considered it from the “type approval” angle. I’ve tried to find a link to the S-Works frameset that was being offered when the 2020 Levos were announced as that would be compliant. I failed to find one however.

 

[Fivetones]

So far scattered around my garage, I have...
Forks, stem, bar, brakes, dropper post (+ lever and cable), derailleur (+ shifter and cable) and tyres - all off my Levo SL. I have a new cassette, chain, grips and saddle on their way... so the stock ones will be in that pile soon too.

That just leaves the frame, wheels, rear shock, cranks and front chain ring! I have full intention of changing the cranks when the carbon ones are available... and may do the rear shock too.

Financially, I'm sure I'd have been much better off to buy just a frame, and fit all the bits myself.
I can probably sell off some of my "spare" components on eBay and get some sort of return on them - but it's unlikely I'll get back anything like what they would cost new - or more importantly, what my new bits cost.

I guess it depends what the frame only cost? If they did a frame only, they'd probably struggle to sell S-Works and Founders models, as people could probably build their own for cheaper.

Particularly for the SL as all the carbon models are the same. Which is different for the Levo. I seem to recall the S-Works Levo frameset being £5500 or thereabouts but failed to find a link to that.

 

[R120]

I have actually enquired with a few bike brands about the possibility of buying a Shimano E8000 Frame, just the frame, not the motor or any go the other bits. The brands I went to where ones that produced frames utilising the external battery system. My logic ws I could swap over the system from my existing bike.

Pretty much all of them said no, though Whispa bike did offer to sell me a Frame.

 

[Fivetones]

I have actually enquired with a few bike brands about the possibility of buying a Shimano E8000 Frame, just the frame, not the motor or any go the other bits. The brands I went to where ones that produced frames utilising the external battery system. My logic ws I could swap over the system from my existing bike.

Pretty much all of them said no, though Whispa bike did offer to sell me a Frame.

Yeah that’s another option isn’t it? You could imagine Shimano being keen on this idea actually.

 

[StuE]

Foes did talk about selling a frame and motor package but not seen anything from them recently

 

[StuE]

Spied: Foes is working on a Made in the USA e-MTB and plan a frame only option - Singletrack Charged

 

[R120]

Yeah that’s another option isn’t it? You could imagine Shimano being keen on this idea actually.

Yup, however the main issue was that most brands I spoke to had never though of the question being asked before, and as such didn't have an answer, and then most came back saying because they couldn't warranty a frame only sale they couldn't do it, even though I said I didn't care about a warranty.

 

[Fivetones]

Spied: Foes is working on a Made in the USA e-MTB and plan a frame only option - Singletrack Charged

Good spot. Rumour has it Hope are developing an ebike and I’m sure I’ve seen hints that Privateer are too. Be nice to see these as frameset options.

 

[R120]

Pace developing one too

 

[p3eps]

Particularly for the SL as all the carbon models are the same. Which is different for the Levo. I seem to recall the S-Works Levo frameset being £5500 or thereabouts but failed to find a link to that.

I guess it’s different where you had to buy S-Works to get the rear carbon triangle.

If it was £5500, you’d be as well buying the Comp Carbon and selling off the components to get frame only. It seems like there are several people out these who have pretty much done that already.

I took the SL Expert thinking there was value in the carbon wheels, better brakes, better shocks and higher spec groupset... but I’ve pretty much changed them all over anyway (except the wheels!).

 

[Fivetones]

I can partially answer my first question. The Alpine 6 S model is £3600 and the equivalent Surge S is £6000 (both with the same RockShox shock, a frame only with this shock is £2350). Effectively this means Orange value the battery and motor for the E8000 at £2400 or thereabouts so the frameset would be £4750.

 

[Gary]

That pricing simply means Orange expect to sell less Surges than Alpines. So the dev/marketing costs for the Surges are spread out between fewer frames.
TBH I'm surprised anyone still buys any of their shitty frames in 2020.

RRP on an E8000 motor/crankset/chainring/wiring/battery/battery housing/controller/display/charger is a little over £2.3k.
Orange buy in bulk and don't have to pass all those costs on at full RRP. and pretty much no brand that uses the Steps motors does.

 

[Fivetones]

Yeah it’s not a realistic estimation. The RRP is interesting to know.

The question is then: what is a realistic premium for any frameset where there’s an electric equivalent. And would the market stand that?

 

[Gary]

Yeah it’s not a realistic estimation. The RRP is interesting to know.

I just quickly totted up the rough RRPs in my head.
Go source them if you want a super accurate amount.

The question is then: what is a realistic premium for any frameset where there’s an electric equivalent. And would the market stand that?

Yeah. that's a pretty naive question.
Are you new to bike industry pricing?

 

[Fivetones]

I just quickly totted up the rough RRPs in my head.
Go source them if you want a super accurate amount.


Yeah. that's a pretty naive question.
Are you new to bike industry pricing?

Just answer the god damn question man. You‘re the lord of the bike industry and we all bow down to your supreme knowledge. ?

 

[Gary]

(currency sign) eleventy six.99

 

[Gary]

An FS mtb frame with STePs standard mounting for motor and battery can be fabricated for you for as little as £200 (ballpark). depending on chosen volume and factory used.
The costs don't end there by any means though.
so don't expect to make any money ordering 1000 and punting them out at £300 a pop.

 

[Fivetones]

I’m not really thinking of that. My question is more along the lines of what would people see as the natural pricing for a frameset/motor/battery etc.

Bikes are roughly £3500-10000 right?

Anyway, regardless I’d rather be shooting the shit over this than Covid-19 regardless of the ridicule I might get from you! ?

 

[Fivetones]

TBH I'm surprised anyone still buys any of their shitty frames in 2020.

Despite my better judgement, I’ll bite. These guys enjoy them. ?✌?

Video: Hazzard Racing Glide Through Winter Slop in 'Time and Tide' - Pinkbike

 

[Gary]

Bikes are roughly £3500-10000 right?

What?
Halfords (and other big stores) sell bikes from £80-100
actual bike shops sell bikes upto £11k+

I just built a set of wheels for an £8k Nukeproof mega build.
(and NPs are in not even close to premium pricing)

do you see where this is(n't) going?

 

[Gary]

Yeah, naive folk see Joe ride and think the same (shit) bike will be as good for them.
Joe's an amazing rider. always has been.
Peaty and Minnaar kicked everyone's asses at WCs on shitty Orange frames a while back too.

 

[Fivetones]

What?
Halfords (and other big stores) sell bikes from £80-100
actual bike shops sell bikes upto £11k+

I just built a set of wheels for an £8k Nukeproof mega build.
(and NPs are in not even close to premium pricing)

do you see where this is(n't) going?

My bad, I meant serious e-MTB are that range though Decathlon might now have something to say about that. Anyway, yes I give up.

 

[Fivetones]

Caught any interesting viruses recently? No, me neither ?

 

[Gary]

*cough*

 

[Fivetones]

*cough*

?

 

[Jansurf77]

There are Chinese companies who will sell you a frame only. And they probably supply some of the main manufacturers in any case. Mind you that was BC (before corona).