Fazua Software update

[Fivetones]

Not sure I’m convinced by the write up but it does sound like it could be an improvement. Maybe better for the road bikes that have these?

FAZUA Evation Black Pepper – Exclusive: Test, info and how to update the Firmware | E-MOUNTAINBIKE Magazine

 

[Eddy Current]

My conclusions is the electric motors can take way more power than the stock numbers. For years Bafangs are being forced by 72v with no problems.

So I think ebikes can go lighter without sacrifice power and range. Squeeze that units!

 

[MattyB]

“The development team managed to improve the efficiency, power delivery and background noise of the motor simply by tweaking the firmware.”

In other breaking news, pigs observed flying themselves to the butchers...

 

[Enon]

@Rob Hancill How about doing a comparison video between a software updated Lapierre EZesty and the Levo SL when this all blows over?

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

@Rob Hancill How about doing a comparison video between a software updated Lapierre EZesty and the Levo SL when this all blows over?

Definitely.

I have a Fazua powered bike to test with the software already. I'm really interested in how they compare.

We can now see how Watts are maintained across the cadence range (pink line). Interestingly we can also see the drop-off in power as on the previous software at a cadence of around 70-80 (grey line).

I've asked for the same graph depicting NM across the range too. This is an important comparison tool so we can see how rotational force is provided across the cadence range.

 

[Fivetones]

It will be very interesting to see how this pans out. The SL is really an improvement on the packaging idea that the Fazua motor opened up. If the Fazua can start to match some of the SL’s promise then this opens things up to other smaller manufacturers. That has to be healthy.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

It will be very interesting to see how this pans out. The SL is really an improvement on the packaging idea that the Fazua motor opened up. If the Fazua can start to match some of the SL’s promise then this opens things up to other smaller manufacturers. That has to be healthy.

Interesting to see they are now quoting Mechanical power, good for comparison:

Max torque: 55 Nm
Power max: 300 watts (mechanical) / 450 watts (electrical), basic setting: max. 250 watts (mechanical)

The motor has an electrical power of 450 watts (Max) and 300 watts mechanical, which is an efficiency rating of 66%. I suspect this update will impact battery life / range.

 

[Rob Rides EMTB]

I'm still learning about how all of this stuff works together. But a vital stat is also torque. Torque is so important to see as it is the turning force of the motor.

I'm going to ask all manufacturers to provide both watts and torque graphs across cadence, so nothing is hidden away.

 

[Waynemarlow]

“The development team managed to improve the efficiency, power delivery and background noise of the motor simply by tweaking the firmware.”

In other breaking news, pigs observed flying themselves to the butchers...

Not necessarily so, a lot is being learned about how to software control the efficiencies of modern Emotors, FOC is the big one and if you liken it to early petrol engines and now how good and reliable they are together with just how much more powerful they are due to large developments of electronics on the motors.

Certainly the TSDZ2 engine is the example I know and from the factory they are pretty ordinary, now theres a whole plethora of free firmware available much like the Fazua that has many mods to the factory software, they are much more powerful with a wider torque band and much quieter.

 

[Fivetones]

“The development team managed to improve the efficiency, power delivery and background noise of the motor simply by tweaking the firmware.”

In other breaking news, pigs observed flying themselves to the butchers...

The original quoted figures for the Fazua motor are more like a regular full fat motor (which it doesn’t deliver on!) however if we lower expectations to a well delivered lower output closer to the SL can they deliver then?

I take what ebike-mtb.de say about German companies with a pinch of salt. It’s natural they get excited by homegrown tech though so I don’t hold it against them. ?

 

[Waynemarlow]

I'm still learning about how all of this stuff works together. But a vital stat is also torque. Torque is so important to see as it is the turning force of the motor.

I'm going to ask all manufacturers to provide both watts and torque graphs across cadence, so nothing is hidden away.

Be a little careful as there are different ways of calculating both the Watts and torque ( most conveniently measure the battery amps and then theoretically calculate the torque, which gives the highest numbers, but doesn't take into account any losses from heat and resistance ). I do suspect though due to the 250W limits there maybe reasons to under estimate which has to be a first for a manufacturer.

The only real way is to connect the output to a dynometer of some kind, which is calibrated. At the moment there's not many such small scale devices about, but if you look on Youtube there's a number of home builds, which you could start to build in your copious enforced time off so that you can always compare the motors on the same machine

 

[MattyB]

Not necessarily so, a lot is being learned about how to software control the efficiencies of modern Emotors, FOC is the big one and if you liken it to early petrol engines and now how good and reliable they are together with just how much more powerful they are due to large developments of electronics on the motors.

Of course you can change firmware to get more power and torque out, and maybe 1-2% more efficiency, but we are not looking at step change stuff. If the torque is really increased across the cadence range as per the graph above then battery consumption will be too - there is no such thing as a free lunch here.

Certainly the TSDZ2 engine is the example I know and from the factory they are pretty ordinary, now theres a whole plethora of free firmware available much like the Fazua that has many mods to the factory software, they are much more powerful with a wider torque band and much quieter.

I cannot understand how the same motor spinning at the same RPM attached to the same drivetrain components can be made meaningfully quieter by software alone. It's the physical movement of the parts that generate most of the noise, not the consumption of the electrical energy.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Of course you can change firmware to get more power and torque out, and maybe 1-2% more efficiency, but we are not looking at step change stuff. If the torque is really increased across the cadence range as per the graph above then battery consumption will be too - there is no such thing as a free lunch here.

I cannot understand how the same motor spinning at the same RPM attached to the same drivetrain components can be made meaningfully quieter by software alone. It's the physical movement of the parts that generate most of the noise, not the consumption of the electrical energy.

Yes and no, if you are going to increase power levels significantly then yes, there's no free lunch and you will need a bigger battery, but also realise that motors as we know them are still quite old technology and little real development has taken place until recently.

If you want to increase efficiency then yes it is feasible by better firmware. As to quietening motors down, for those with a good mechanical ear, a well tuned motor is like a sewing machine, that same motor with the timing set wrong, sounds like an old bag of nails and our motors are just the same. What we can't do though is quieten down gear trains and that's constitutes a great deal of the noise we can hear.

Just for interest here is FOC primer and where a lot of the gains can be made

Field Oriented Control (FOC) Made Ultra Simple

 

[Dirtnvert]

Apparently it has quicker engagement as well with the new update. Its looking better and better. Always thought an onyx rear hub with instant engagement would mitigate zny problem. Now i see "rotor" have a crankset for fazua's that im guessing also engages quicker. Its seems any issue can be resolved. The bikes are light
The Final Randoms: Cranks, Bars, Shades, Bells, & More - Pond Beaver 2020 - Pinkbike

^^rotor cranks are the last product mentioned in that article

 

[Fivetones]

I noticed that too. However the cranks are just a lump of metal, the engagement is in the motor unit itself. Unless I’m missing something unique about the Fazua?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Engagement of the crank to the motor is almost instantaneously as its just a one way bearing.

The engagement of putting power into the motor is electronic and depends on a number of factors such as the number of sensors on the crank to detect degrees of rotation but that raises a whole plethora of problems such as if you say put your foot on the pedal whilst at standstill, the torque sensor is saying input some power in, but safety is saying hey we are not moving, don't put power in.

You can also get to the point if you say only have 5 degrees of rotation to trigger power input, as in you are going through technically difficult tracks and you are putting small crank movements in, you can get the motor power up when you don't really want it to. Couple into that the delay in powering the motor down once you have stopped rotation, you can get into pretty interesting situations that you don't really want to be and hence the manufacturers being on the conservative side. Some manufacturers fit brake sensors which kill the motor instantaneously just for this reason.

The present Freeware for TSDZ2 allows the adjustment of all these parameters and one of them is enabling the user to turn off the rotation detection at zero speed ( town riders wanting to get away from traffic lights fast ), I tried it for a laugh and no you don't want to go there for mtb.

 

[Dirtnvert]

I thought the spider on the crank is basically a freehub? Like a freehub body, that should have some lag in engagdment

 

[Waynemarlow]

Not sure exactly what Fazua use but for shear minimal size and weight, the TSDZ2 uses a " Sprag clutch bearing " Sprag Clutch One Way Bearings - WychBearings.co.uk which is effectively instantaneous in the way they lock.

Could be wrong however

 

[Dirtnvert]

Onyx hubs use a sprague clutch as well. With an onyx hub(good option regardless as theyre bombproof), the rotor cranks(if their engagement is improved) and the software update should mean these fazua equipped emtb's are lighter and have more tourque and should functiin arleast as well as a levo sl . I like the option of having a traditional mtb both in weight and function, with the fazua equipped bikes. I wish there were more options. I want to buy a new mtb to go with my decoy emtb but i keep thinking a fazua bike would be more functiinal. A lot of theorizing on possible improvements though. I want to hear more reviews with fazua bikes. How durable is the system over time? How is the company to deal with for warrantee? Is it ez to get parts or additionzl batteries? How good are the batteries?

 

[TonTonUB]

I'm very interested in Evation drive system. I'd insta-buy an Evation evolution like this :
- 60 Nm torque
- 48 volts system
- 320 / 360 Wh battery
- an intelligent assistance mode (something like Emtb mode from bosch, but weaker and slow pace pedaling oriented, of course).
At the same weight than current Evation first model, of course ! (bis)
Such a motor could incarnate a real disruption on E-mtb market, in my opinion.

Edit : i wonder if BMZ already sell batteries for Evation system ? I guess that actual Evation with 50 to 100 Wh more inside battery (same size) would become way more attractive.

Edit (bis) : with the addition of a range extender (external), would some peoples change their mind about this system ?